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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 10-01-2012, 06:50 PM
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Why turbocharged not supercharged?

Been curious why MB has abandoned supercharging and did BMW ever use it to that extent? Seems twin scroll and twin turbo have taken center stage. The supercharged Jag Supersport motor is a nice drive, I have only driven the XJL though.

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  #2  
Old 10-01-2012, 07:13 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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They both have pros and cons. For every advantage one has, I can think of similar advantages to the other. Generally speaking I think turbos have the potential for better fuel economy off boost though - you see turbos on the newer vehicles with lower displacement that are more economy oriented. On the other hand, BMW especially has a knack for tuning the turbos with very broad torque band. Turbos have much less parasitic losses as well. But like I said, it would be easy to sit here and name the disadvantages as well.
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  #3  
Old 10-02-2012, 04:55 AM
daikyu daikyu is offline
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I have a Jaguar XF Supercharged rated at 420HP, and a 550xi rated at 400HP.

My butt dyno says the XF feels quicker. I think it is the always on power from the supercharger. I wish the 550 responded like the XF does. The jag has more of a sportier feel(I did opt for the sportiest version of the car), and the 550 a bit more luxury (I got the non sport version because the Jag sucks in the snow).

Last edited by daikyu; 10-02-2012 at 05:06 AM.
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  #4  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:04 AM
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The XJL I drove is the 510 HP version and is kick ass from about 50 mph up, no slouch off the line either.

Seems that the turbo plumbing is so much more convoluted that supercharging would be preferred by mfg's but the mpg aspect must be strong.

Thanks for the insight!
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  #5  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:07 AM
daikyu daikyu is offline
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The 510HP Jag engine is the new standard for them. I got the first model year XF 2009 and the engines were smaller.

The XJ is a much bigger vehicle than the XF. Like going from a 5 to a 7 series.
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  #6  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:19 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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I would think fuel efficiency is one of the main reason why a lot of car manufacturers are using turbo instead of the supercharger.
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  #7  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:31 AM
Alan L. Alan L. is offline
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Turbos tends to have more torque compared to Superchargers. Both have its pros and cons.

Alan
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  #8  
Old 10-02-2012, 06:38 AM
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Both have their pros and cons. It's cool to see little engines using both, like that European VW 1.4 twin-charge engine
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  #9  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daikyu View Post
The 510HP Jag engine is the new standard for them. I got the first model year XF 2009 and the engines were smaller.

The XJ is a much bigger vehicle than the XF. Like going from a 5 to a 7 series.
Current year XJL specs out as 200 pounds lighter than the XF. I hear that the XJL is aluminum body, have not tested with a magnet but I might do it! It's actually a feat to build a car that light and large. Price reflect it , too
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Last edited by Donm; 10-02-2012 at 05:32 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Donm View Post
Current year XJL specs out as 200 pounds lighter than the XF. I hear that the XJL is aluminum body, have not tested with a magnet but I might do it! It's actually a feat to build a car that light and large. Price reflect it , too
Yup, XJ is fully aluminum. So is the current Audi A8. That is why it is significantly lighter than an equivalent 7 series, even with its AWD system.
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  #11  
Old 10-03-2012, 09:06 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
So is the current Audi A8. That is why it is significantly lighter than an equivalent 7 series, even with its AWD system.
Fellow troll, how is the Audi A8 AWD significantly lighter than the 7 series RWD?

http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=123

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ata/index.html
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  #12  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:07 PM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Fellow troll, how is the Audi A8 AWD significantly lighter than the 7 series RWD?

http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=123

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ata/index.html
Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 10-03-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:09 PM
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Back on topic, I would like to see a supercharged or triple charged (one supercharger, two turbos) BMW V8 with D4S.
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  #14  
Old 10-03-2012, 11:39 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.
Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" ) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]

Last edited by bm323; 10-03-2012 at 11:47 PM.
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" ) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]
I am not sure Vag is an appropriate term for Internet forum.

Leave AutoUnion alone. Nothing wrong with liking VWs. I rent them from time to time.
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  #16  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:22 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
I am not sure Vag is an appropriate term for Internet forum.

Leave AutoUnion alone. Nothing wrong with liking VWs. I rent them from time to time.
Yes nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with liking BMWs either; but I don't go to Audi forums and continue posting for eons degrading Audi In fact not one post from me in any Audi forum as such.

Do you go to any Audi forum and bash Audi, whether with true or false points?

Last edited by bm323; 10-04-2012 at 12:24 AM.
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2012, 12:35 AM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Yes nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with liking BMWs either; but I don't go to Audi forums and continue posting for eons degrading Audi In fact not one post from me in any Audi forum as such.

Do you go to any Audi forum and bash Audi, whether with true or false points?
Why would I do that? It's not their fault they can't afford a BMW.

Autounion is here cos he drives a BMW too.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 10-04-2012 at 12:36 AM.
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  #18  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:14 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Why would I do that? It's not their fault they can't afford a BMW.

Autounion is here cos he drives a BMW too.
yes, he claims he drives one; spends tons of time in the various subforums bashing BMW ... esp the F10 which he doesn't own

a simple click on his posts ...

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...62&postcount=9

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=35

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=278

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6928289

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6939872

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6926775

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post6925428

Last edited by bm323; 10-04-2012 at 02:42 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:59 AM
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Back on topic, I would like to see a supercharged or triple charged (one supercharger, two turbos) BMW V8 with D4S.
Several years ago at a BMW rally for the F800 bikes in Fontana NC there was also a Crossfire rally. On car there was fitted with a MB big V8 with a supercharger conventionally mounted and a turbo mounted back near the muffler to pre charge the supercharger. As you might imagine he didn't quite have the fuel system programming polished up but what an undertaking!

One of the attractions to the Fontana area is Deals Gap, aka, the Dragon, a well know biker and driver's road. To my chagrin, the autos were the real daredevils through the Dragon.

SP, how would you imagine the triple charger lay out?

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  #20  
Old 10-04-2012, 05:51 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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yes, he claims he drives one; spends tons of time in the various subforums bashing BMW ... esp the F10 which he doesn't own
AutoUnion has as much right to be on this forum as you do. He presents a counter point, which make things interesting around here. If every post in here is about how great BMW is, imagine how boring this forum would be, it will be like a giant group hug around here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing BMW to the competition, if it wasnt for Audi and MB's stiff competition, BMW would not be where they are today.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:53 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Your sources are comparing different countries which have different measurement standards.

Comparing the US website data of BMW and Audi, the SWB A8 weighs 4531lbs and SWB 750i weighs 4575 lbs. which is about the same and in my opinion puts the Audi to shame.

However the Jaguar XJ SWB V8 (no longer available in 2013) weighs 4035lbs which is a substantial weight savings.

So AutoUnion is right about the part of the Jag, but not right about the Audi (I wouldn't call 44 lbs a significant weight saving).

Jaguar has much more sophisticated technology in use of aluminum than Audi and from what I hear the XJ is more rigid too. In my drives I was extremely impressed with the XJ Supersport. If they had BMW electronics, I may have bought one instead of my 550i.
Considering the Audi is packing 150 to 200 pounds of AWD hardware that's not too bad.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Issue is with Audi, not Jaguar - AutoUnion is a "fellow troll" ( and what term did he use? "badge whore" ) for VAG

A8 3.0T 4376 lbs. [1984 kg]
http://models.audiusa.com/a8/detaile...ons?engine=101

740i 4310 lbs http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

750iL 4660 lbs vs A8 L 4.0T 4597 lbs [2085 kg]

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test



Look at the curb weight difference. Almost 300 lbs. Unlike you, I do use facts to backup my arguments.

Last edited by AutoUnion; 10-04-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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  #23  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:44 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
AutoUnion has as much right to be on this forum as you do. He presents a counter point, which make things interesting around here. If every post in here is about how great BMW is, imagine how boring this forum would be, it will be like a giant group hug around here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with comparing BMW to the competition, if it wasnt for Audi and MB's stiff competition, BMW would not be where they are today.
Sure; did I say he has no right to?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...t=#post7100931 the point is not that one should be thrashing the competition; the point is that he persistently thrashes BMW for how own motives. And if you had read, I have mentioned a few times the F10 has a serious weakness.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=11 this was asking his basis

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=15 I would assume that I have a right to question his basis; he can jolly well disregard, as he has done before

Last edited by bm323; 10-04-2012 at 07:05 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2012, 06:55 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

Look at the curb weight difference. Almost 300 lbs. Unlike you, I do use facts to backup my arguments.
I assume you disregarded the official US BMW and Audi websites for your own motives; and you know for a fact that the 3 cars tested had the same options incl seats

Last edited by bm323; 10-04-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-04-2012, 07:07 AM
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I assume you disregarded the official US BMW and Audi websites for your own motives; and you know for a fact that the 3 cars tested had the same options incl seats
I have no dog in this fight, but I have long since learned to distrust "official" weights by a significant margin. The face that the two cars were tested to the same spec (passengers, fluids, etc.) on the same set of scales on the same day means much more to me.
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