Is the new 3 series is losing US market share?

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Oops. You are not. I had the reverse scenario in my mind when I read that sentence. Sorry about that.

That's what I suspected . When we read fast, sometimes "not" and "no" float around and land in other places of a sentence

for me its simple.

it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".

Originally Posted by bredi

for me its simple.

it is too big.
no diesel
no hybrid
no electric
its just a revision. nothing epic.
don't like the new "branding" of "classes".

That is a good personal opinion, but we have data that tells us that this is a predictable transition curve as evidenced by similar double-digit drops in sales for the first 9-12 months of the E90's life back in 2005 when it replaced the E46. Back then, the Sedan saw a blip upon it's introduction, then a downtrend. At the same time, the Coupe, Convertible, and Wagon's were decimated on anticipation of the new bodystyle.

The only other influences on F30 first three quarter sales vs. E90 first three quarter sales would be:

F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).

F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).

Mercedes Benz decided to take the C Class more seriously post-2005.

Audi has ramped up its design and advertising more seriously post-2005.

BJ

Surprised to read BJ now adds the competitions on his short list of why.

As soon as the F32 will be back, the F3X should be on top again.

However Mercedes is fighting hard with their refreshed C-Class.

Oh, 4-cyl. turbo + price increase don't compute. Market noticed.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

F30 XDrive models were not available until September (in 2005 they were launched simultaneously).

F30 inventory levels were abysmal prior to September (unsure of levels in 2005).

Actually, there was a similar RWD-first rollout in the spring for the E90 and the AWD arrived in September 2005 as well.

And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.

Originally Posted by SARAFIL

Actually, there was a similar RWD-first rollout in the spring for the E90 and the AWD arrived in September 2005 as well.

And E90 supplies were very tight over the first few months.

E90 Launched in Europe in March 2005 (per BMW)
E90 Launched in US in June 2005 (per BMW)
E90 XDrive Launched Sept 2005 (your recollection)

F30 Launched Worldwide February 2012
F30 XDrive Launched September 2012

The E90 would have had a 3 month lag to XDrive whereas the F30 had a 7 month lag.

BJ

I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.

2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.

As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.

Originally Posted by rpilot

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

Dunno about the worst part. Audi and MB are equally bad. Lexus is good (at least with respect to the test drive), but the car leaves a lot to be desired (heavy, no manual, poor gas mileage, and at this point, dated). Which dealers were you thinking were better?

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

I, for one, don't care about the alarm...those tend to go off unnecessarily and create embarrassing moments. The car does have an immobilizer.

And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)

Originally Posted by rpilot

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

Dunno about the worst part. Audi and MB are equally bad. Lexus is good (at least with respect to the test drive), but the car leaves a lot to be desired (heavy, no manual, poor gas mileage, and at this point, dated). Which dealers were you thinking were better?

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

I, for one, don't care about the alarm...those tend to go off unnecessarily and create embarrassing moments. The car does have an immobilizer.

And as far as I know, the tint at the top of the windshield is gone from several brands...it may be even gone from all of them. It's not there on the Audis or the MBs. (Can't speak for S-class/7 Series/A8 as I don't pay attention to those.)

The windows do have a light tint and that is plenty for me. I wouldn't want it any darker.

The car is not perfect, but no car is. Otherwise, we'd all be flocking there.

Originally Posted by rpilot

I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.

2) I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.

3) My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.

As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.

A few comments:

Regarding the following points:

3) I've been here almost 5 years and while there are certainly dealer complaints I'd be hard pressed to say BMW dealers are the worst luxury dealers in the US. Personally, my dealer would rate as the best I've ever dealt with.

4) Bundling of options is common in the industry. Try pricing a Cadillac ATS or an Audi A4 or VW GTI.

5) BMW's are very hard to steal. Alarms are more trouble than they are worth.

Originally Posted by rpilot

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

The steering has to get to a certain angle to start up the car. If you had simply let go of the brakes, the car would have started up in less than a second. The other options are to push the ASS button or put the car in DS mode.

Originally Posted by rpilot

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

I pay for insurance. Someone wants to steal my car, have at it. No car is worth the hassle of an alarm.

Originally Posted by brkf

I pay for insurance. Someone wants to steal my car, have at it. No car is worth the hassle of an alarm.

Car alarm is so yesterday much like typewriter, 56k modem, tube TV, and so on. I rather pay for BMW Assist & insurance.

i rather someone run away after hearing my alarm go off than trying to do something when they get in the car. Sure insnare will replace it but then you have to wait 2 months to get another one

Originally Posted by justinnum1

i rather someone run away after hearing my alarm go off than trying to do something when they get in the car. Sure insnare will replace it but then you have to wait 2 months to get another one

That true if it is your only ride. I always have 1-2 spare vehicles during any given day. Again, everyone's situation is different.

Whether or not the 3 is actually losing market share, price relative to the competition is a factor.

I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.

The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.

Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Whether or not the 3 is actually losing market share, price relative to the competition is a factor.

I just priced an A4 with the absolute minimum options that would make me happy enough and it came out to $35,645 MSRP. The absolute most I would load it up to is $39,595, which would include things I don't even want. Things can be added gradually and at around $37.5K, I can configure an almost-perfect car.

The BMW build function is right now unavailable on their site. So based instead on carsdirect.com, even a no-liner with black duct tape window trim, but with leather, wood, and xenons cracks $40K. Now pick a line plus xenons, and you are in the $43.5-44K range.

Obviously, we are not talking about orders of magnitude of difference, but about a mere 11-12%. However, that is enough to be a factor.

Definitely a factor but not an overriding one. The power is significantly better than the A4. Looks are subjective, but the A4's interior doesn't wow...whereas the F30 does (at least for me). Also includes maintenance for 4 yr/50k vs Audi/MB which don't. I think the premium is justified.

There are areas where BMW could do better such as getting rid of the lines and supporting a more normal ordering process to allow a better choice of colors.

Originally Posted by rpilot

I know I changed my mind about buying a 3 series, despite it being a great car..

1) I dont like turbos as much as I tried to like them and the normally aspirated 6 cyl is not available anymore.

Turbos have come a long way since the 80s. The N20/N55 are just about the best turbos I have ever driven, almost zero lag, powerful, and fuel efficient. Engines that tell you its time to leave the old stereotyping at the door.

Originally Posted by rpilot

I am picky about build quality and I saw cars in 2 different dealer showrooms with loose plastic pieces.. it left me questioning build quality. Or that fact that one of the cars could not find my ipod after connecting through the USB port while another one did. These are showroom cars, btw.

I can't speak to that, I didn't see any quality issues with the 3 F30s I test drove. I am getting my car today and will report if I do see anything resembling bad quality control. Maybe you are super unlucky. Compared to American cars the Germans are way ahead in quality build and that says a lot since American cars have come a long way in the quality department.

Originally Posted by rpilot

My GF never lets me forget her BMW dealer horror story and it is seems to be general consensus that BMW dealers in general (not specific.. as I am sure there are very good ones out there) are the worst luxury car brand dealers in the US overall.

Explain to her its one bad experience. We all had it one time or another. My worse was with my Subaru where the dealership actually lied to me, and second worse was with Mercedes. If you GF keeps nagging tell her you will change her for a better looking and less talkative model.

Originally Posted by rpilot

4) I don't mind paying for options, but I positively hate un-bundling of features and forced bundling as high price option packages, along with deliberate omissions of options... for instance while ventilated seats are not available on the 3, on the 5 they cost $2400 because you have to take a couple of features you do not need. Even their most direct competitor charges around $550 (MB).. and even Porsche charges around $800, so its not exactly like I am comparing it to a Kia here.. oh wait, even Kia offers cooled seats in a sedan and Suv costing way less that the 3 series..

I have to agree there with you, the 2012 F30s were the worse as you didn't get a lot unless you got expensive packages. The 2013 F30 was much better and I believe as they go into the 2014 they will have more single choices and probably a few more standard stuff.

Originally Posted by rpilot

5)Speaking of options, does anyone in their right mind buy a so called "luxury car" even entry level without a basic immobilizer alarm? (an alarm, albeit the fancy one is $400).. or how about simply a tint at the top of the windshield or lightly tinted windows befitting a luxury car brand... NO.. Ok, can I still give you money for this.. N0.. buy a 5 series.

It has the immobilizer so I don't understand what you are saying here.

Originally Posted by rpilot

6) Speaking of the 5 series.. test drove one of those too.. sitting still in a traffic jam, saw the right lane was clear, turned wheel, step on the gas.. count 1, 2, 3, 4.. then the car wakes up... if there was a car coming I would have been toast.. check out the dreaded 5 series throttle lag problem.. again this in a dealer car. and according to the salesperson, thats normal.. really dude?

Don't know about the 5 but in the F30 you can shut down the ASS and keep it that way, its something you dealer can do. So this is a non issue on the F30 IMO.

Originally Posted by rpilot

7) So what exactly am i paying for...

a) precise steering and a sense of balance that many other cars lack but not significantly better than the best out there..
b) interior design that I like.. clean straight lines..

but neither of them would make me overlook everything else above.

You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.

Originally Posted by rpilot

As usual, those that own the new 3 series... obviously different things matter to you, but I suspect there are enough holdouts who would otherwise have bought a 3 series.

Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.

Originally Posted by windsor027

You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.

Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.

Precisely.

Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.

As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.

BJ

Originally Posted by windsor027

Turbos have come a long way since the 80s. The N20/N55 are just about the best turbos I have ever driven, almost zero lag, powerful, and fuel efficient. Engines that tell you its time to leave the old stereotyping at the door.



I can't speak to that, I didn't see any quality issues with the 3 F30s I test drove. I am getting my car today and will report if I do see anything resembling bad quality control. Maybe you are super unlucky. Compared to American cars the Germans are way ahead in quality build and that says a lot since American cars have come a long way in the quality department.



Explain to her its one bad experience. We all had it one time or another. My worse was with my Subaru where the dealership actually lied to me, and second worse was with Mercedes. If you GF keeps nagging tell her you will change her for a better looking and less talkative model.



I have to agree there with you, the 2012 F30s were the worse as you didn't get a lot unless you got expensive packages. The 2013 F30 was much better and I believe as they go into the 2014 they will have more single choices and probably a few more standard stuff.



It has the immobilizer so I don't understand what you are saying here.



Don't know about the 5 but in the F30 you can shut down the ASS and keep it that way, its something you dealer can do. So this is a non issue on the F30 IMO.



You are paying for one of the best if not the best sport sedans in the world. If you don't care about precise steering and balance above getting a couple of options and keeping your girlfriend happy, buy a Honda.



Here I have to say BJ is correct. We don't want you guys to buy the F30 if you don't appreciate it for what it is. The less out there the better, personally I hate seeing myself coming and going every 10th car.

Windsor are you excited or What? Mine gets to Baltimore Saturday, so hopefully about a week or so.

I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.

Originally Posted by MacManVA

Windsor are you excited or What? Mine gets to Baltimore Saturday, so hopefully about a week or so.

I saw a F30 taxi in Vegas this past weekend.

I am super excited man, ETA for the car to get here is early afternoon, I took off work today. I plan to put at least 150 miles on the car today..

Saturday, you are almost there bro. I think either Saturday or Sunday we are going to the Annapolis boat show.

yea I read where you posted you saw a taxi. Crazy Vegas man, the last F30 I have seen in Mclean must have been two weeks ago and here you are seeing F30 taxis...LOL

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Precisely.

Go buy a Civic for himself and an Accord for the girlfriend for the same price as a single 328i and be done with it. People act like BMW owes them more car for the money and they just don't get it. You can buy 100 Casio's for the price of 1 Rolex, it's a beautiful world to have so much choice.

As for losing market share, I certainly hope so. The fewer F30's on the road the better. Let me have a year or two without seeing a dozen a day. This isn't a popularity contest. We've got our F30's, could care less if anyone else does.

BJ

People will still see a dozen a day since they would not be able to tell the F30 and F10 apart.

Originally Posted by mr_clueless

Definitely a factor but not an overriding one. The power is significantly better than the A4. Looks are subjective, but the A4's interior doesn't wow...whereas the F30 does (at least for me). Also includes maintenance for 4 yr/50k vs Audi/MB which don't. I think the premium is justified.

I guess the question is if the 3 series is worth the extra cost over the C class and the A4, according to the trends, more and more people do not think so. As the C class and the A4 made marketing adjustments to compete with the 3 series, so will BMW. My guess is that BMW will package the options differently in the future to make the 3 series more affortable as well as lowering the lease rate.

Power wise, its not a significant difference, according to edmunds:

"The 2012 BMW 328i sweeps both straight-line tests by hitting 60 mph in 5.9 seconds (5.5 seconds using a 1-foot rollout like on a drag strip) and passing through the quarter-mile in 14.1 seconds at 98.9 mph. The A4 is marginally slower to 60 mph at 6.2 seconds (5.9 seconds with rollout) and is a half-second back at the quarter-mile with an effort of 14.6 seconds at 94.1 mph. "

Aa far as BMW's free maintenance for 4 yr/50k, Audicare is the 4 year maintenace plan offer for Audi, it cost about $800.

Originally Posted by dtc100

People will still see a dozen a day since they would not be able to tell the F30 and F10 apart.

Maybe you can't but most of us can. Hell especially from the front the lights how they integrate with the grill is a dead giveaway.

Originally Posted by The X Men

Aa far as BMW's free maintenance for 4 yr/50k, Audicare is the 4 year maintenace plan offer for Audi, it cost about $800.

That is 800 dollars BMW owners don't have to pay...just saying.