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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:44 PM
5Xwen 5Xwen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post

Oh, that's right, it's down the street at the Cadillac dealer. It's called the CTS-V."

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/m5/201...and-video.html
I'd like to compare the sales of the M5 versus the CTS-V.

Problem is that the "purists" think they want manual transmission, light weight, tossability, etc. - except nobody is buying those cars anymore.

Someone with $100K+ to spend wants prestige plus 24 way power adjustable, heated, cooled, napa upholstered, massaging, comfort seats and every electronic gizmo possible.
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  #27  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:46 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Xwen View Post
I'd like to compare the sales of the M5 versus the CTS-V.

Problem is that the "purists" think they want manual transmission, light weight, tossability, etc. - except nobody is buying those cars anymore.

Someone with $100K+ to spend wants prestige plus 24 way power adjustable, heated, cooled, napa upholstered, massaging, comfort seats and every electronic gizmo possible.
the M5 was always more expensive than the competition, and always had all the bells and whistles, but it also ALWAYS crushed it's competitors in driving performance and "soul".

and now?
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2012, 02:54 PM
5Xwen 5Xwen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
the M5 was always more expensive than the competition, and always had all the bells and whistles, but it also ALWAYS crushed it's competitors in driving performance and "soul".

and now?
Well if you believe Car & Driver the M5 is also ranked below the MB E63 and Audi S6.

I bet it will outsell those cars too.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2012, 03:16 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Of course, you identify an essential truth - but the world is changing and I am trying to accommodate myself to this changing reality.

BTW I regard my M3 as perfect in terms of my needs and desires. I am certain the new M3 will be a more capable sports sedan but I am not certain if it will speak to my heart. I find the idea of keeping my e92 M3 for a long time increasingly very appealing. It's hard to top perfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
i'm in the same boat. i don't think there can be a better car made than the m3 (and btw, many many many reviews will say the same thing). it feels like a bespoke suit
M3 guys, please don't count me among the purists (IMHO AWD rules! ), but in your first-hand opinions is the E92 that last true ///M car (NA engine, RWD, lots of NVH)? The new M5 seems to have lost more than it's fair share of comparos, hopefully the new M3 won't share the same fate, but I don't see the F30 M3 diverging from the the path the F10 M5 took.
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  #30  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:07 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Xwen View Post
I'd like to compare the sales of the M5 versus the CTS-V.

Problem is that the "purists" think they want manual transmission, light weight, tossability, etc. - except nobody is buying those cars anymore.

Someone with $100K+ to spend wants prestige plus 24 way power adjustable, heated, cooled, napa upholstered, massaging, comfort seats and every electronic gizmo possible.
Really? The awesome $186k GT3 RS4.0 was sold out in 14 days. It was low production but it shows that there is a market for purist cars if they build them.

And frankly I don't care one bit for the volume argument. If volume was everything everyone would be building Corollas and Civics and nothing else. Enthusiasts cars are important if you want to be an enthusiast brand and M cars differentiate themselves by being enthusiasts cars that works everyday not by being luxo power cruisers. That's likely why there has never been an M7. I think Alpina has that market covered.

Last edited by solstice; 10-04-2012 at 04:22 PM.
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  #31  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:30 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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dunderhi, to me awd is like FI, not optimal but not reason for disqualification either. There are some pretty bad-@ss hardcore rallye cars that I wouldn't call soft, isolated or cruisers with both awd and FI.

Last edited by solstice; 10-04-2012 at 10:52 PM.
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  #32  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:39 PM
Madjackdog Madjackdog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
some part of me believes that they won't mess up the new m3, especially because they are trying to bring down weight to e46 standards (think its like -300 pounds on base model?) but who knows. one thing is for sure, the sound and feel of that bespoke engine is gone forever.

and that is very very sad
Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
i'm in the same boat. i don't think there can be a better car made than the m3 (and btw, many many many reviews will say the same thing). it feels like a bespoke suit
That's it. You use the word "bespoke" one more time, and you're out of the club.
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  #33  
Old 10-04-2012, 04:50 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi;7114089)
,... but in your first-hand opinions is the E92 that last true ///M car (NA engine, RWD, lots of NVH)? The new M5 seems to have lost more than it's fair share of comparos, hopefully the new M3 won't share the same fate, but I don't see the F30 M3 diverging from the the path the F10 M5 took.
Very difficult question - really depends how you define M. Is M defined by mechanical components or by some other measure? For me - I adore my M - because of the sense of "connectivity" that my M engenders - I feel hard wired into the car. I suspect the new M4 will offer superior performance, but will BMW be sufficiently artful in employing new technology to achieve that perfect "M" note?
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Last edited by Capobranco; 10-04-2012 at 05:52 PM.
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:14 PM
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bodonx bodonx is offline
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Despite its less power, Panamera GTS is much more exciting to drive than M5. Their sport-design steering is actually better than truck-size Msport steering on M5.

They should put M6 steering on M5. When they put Msport steering on M5, M5 does not feel special anymore.

Regarding the comments on M3, Luxury is never M cars' strong appeal. It's always its driving EXCITEMENT which sets it apart.

Driving excitement is not equal to fastest/quickest though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
You are right on the mark.

What makes the M5 special is that it's a car that you are excited to drive on the streets. It's power and handling are perfectly honed for the Alpine roads, the mountains and hills, the city streets and the highways.

Is it the ultimate track car? No it isn't. The Ariel Atom is far better.

However this review is effectively judging the M5 by the wrong standards. It's like saying the Porsche 911 GT3 is rubbish because the Ariel Atom gives you more feel, more excitement, more connection to the road. But try driving an Ariel Atom to the office in the rain!

The M5 to me - is the best possible saloon car I would want to drive on public roads. And nothing comes close. You give me an example and I will tell you why it isn't as good.

Panamera - too quiet, lacks excitement, instrumentation is not good enough for driving at the limit (e.g. no shift indicators in HUD), steering wheel is too thin and not conducive to control.

CLS63 AMG - balance is not quite perfect. Doesn't corner as well. Also doesn't have good instrumentation. Transmission is too slow.

M3 - not particularly luxurious, jumpy over expansion joints, not fast enough.

E63 AMG - Ugly, and same issues as CLS63 AMG

S6 - AWD unable to deliver the same driving excitement. Where's the power sliding?

Cadillac CTS-V - haven't driven it and I have no intention of doing so. Its a smaller car and it looks like ****.

So having ruled out the sedan competition, you are left with sports cars. Well that's comparing apples and oranges isn't it?
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2012, 08:17 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's disappointing to say the least. When they now made every normal 5-series into a luxury power cruiser with no available factory options to really tighten it up you would hope that the M5 would be built for the purists but no, doesn't seem like that is the case. Just more of the same it seems.
solstice, test drive the M5 and let us have your views

ps review by one who had the E60 M5; modded even http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...662&highlight=

pps for the F80 M3

"HORSEPOWER / TORQUE

Regarding power output, the previously estimated 450HP figure is an overestimate. Instead, expect the horsepower output to be in ballpark of the current E90/E92 M3.

What will be increased greatly however, is the torque figure. The F80/F82's multi turbo inline 6 cylinder engine [recently exposed] will add approximately 100 lb-ft more torque over the current M3 (which outputs 295 lb-ft torque). This would put the new M3/M4 in the range of 395 lb-ft torque. There's nothing like forced induction for thrust!

WEIGHT

We were also glad to learn that all this extra torque will not go to waste. We've been reporting that the F80 M3 / F82 M4 will be lighter than the current M3, but how much lighter is what we all want to know. The great news is that the M engineers have targeted the E46 M3 weight in developing the F80/F82.

The E46 M3's curb weight is 3,415 lb, while the current E90 M3 and E92 M3 weigh 3,726 and 3,704 pounds, respectively. This would represent an approximate 300 pound weight reduction; great news for BMW enthusiasts who bemoan the increasing weight of cars in general. The caveat to keep in mind however, is that curb weight is calculated based on the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, and with the ever growing list of standard equipment and technology in late model cars, don't be surprised or disappointed if you don't see exactly 300 pounds shaved. What's important is that the E46 M3 weight is being used as a target, which in any scenario, should result in significant weight reduction for the new M3 and M4."

http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=753936

Last edited by bm323; 10-04-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2012, 09:18 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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I don't like that review.
It contradict itself throughout the whole article.
I'm going to go with Top gear's review instead.
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2012, 10:12 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
the M5 was always more expensive than the competition, and always had all the bells and whistles, but it also ALWAYS crushed it's competitors in driving performance and "soul".

and now?
Heck it still crushes the opponent like flies.

There isn't a single sedan out there that is faster in a straight line or around a track.

Not in the same price range there isn't.

Before anyone say anything about the Panamera, the GTS is way slower, and the Turbo S cost two times as much as M5. So that's that.

As for "soul" and "driving excitement"?
I'm sorry but BMW's M stands for Motorsports.
As long as M5 still crushes most other cars on a track, that's all I care.
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Last edited by smashhell; 10-04-2012 at 10:25 PM.
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  #38  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:23 AM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I'm not surprised though. Disappointed yes but not surprised, it is pretty much what I expected. Something is not right in Munich these days.
highyo, I think you'll be very happy with your timing to get into a real M car. I'm not optimistic about the upcoming M3. We'll see though, it could be that messing with the M3s virtues is something too sacred even in the name of higher predicted sales and profit for an isolated techno softy.
There is leaked info posted on the other forum:
  • Lighter than current M3 - targeting E46 M3 weight (roughly 300 lbs lighter?)
    --> This is nice although I am not entirely convinced how BMW will achieve this without using exotic materials given that the base F30 weighs about same as the base E90.
  • More powerful than current M3 - approximately same HP, but around 100 lb-ft more torque (in range of 395 lb-ft)
    --> This is good news (though I am not sure if I would like FI in an M)
  • Faster than current M3
    --> With the additional 100 lb-ft of torque and 300 lb lighter chasis, it'd better be faster.
  • Powered by an inline 6 cylinder multi turbo engine - more efficient than current M3
    --> I6 Turbo vs V8 NA, kinda expected.
  • Electric Power Steering (completely reworked for precision for M3/M4)
    --> This could be a real deal breaker for many if not done perfectly... I am very nervous about this one


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I drove a CTS-V. IMO, the only thing it has going for it is that it's fast. That's it.

Steering? Heavy, no communication.
Handling? Loose.
Ride? Harsh.
Brakes - well, these are good too.
Interior - low rent
Seats - Great for 10 minutes, forget about it after.

It's a hot rod. It's not what the M5 is meant to be.
Really? I must have test driven a different CTS-V because it's nothing like what you describe. How ironic that an F10 owner calls CTS-V's steering non-communicative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
i'm in the same boat. i don't think there can be a better car made than the m3 (and btw, many many many reviews will say the same thing). it feels like a bespoke suit
I never thought I would get two of the same car back-to-back, but I am thinking about picking up an E92 M3 next year before the EOP. OK, maybe not exactly the same (convertible vs coupe).


Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Xwen View Post
Problem is that the "purists" think they want manual transmission, light weight, tossability, etc. - except nobody is buying those cars anymore.
"They" are a minority, but "they" tend to be very loyal to the brand.

Your exaggeration is a little overdone though.

If nobody really wanted these cars, why would Audi bring TT RS (manual only) to the US (which by the way is sold out)? How about BMW bringing the 1M (also manual only)?

The Toyata GT-86/FR-S (aka Subaru BRZ) made to be light, nimble and tossable is selling like hot cakes and there is a waiting list.

Yes, they are small volume niche cars, but they do add up to a significant volume that few manufacturers want to ignore.
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  #39  
Old 10-05-2012, 12:32 AM
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ChrisF01 ChrisF01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
That's a very depressing quote from the article. I can agree that the CTS-V is a good car, but it's too gaudy and the interior is not up to par with even a F30
As dumb as it sounds, what was a deal-killer for me was their stupid turn ignition switch. Why the heck couldn't they put a push button on the dash instead?? That thing looks so stupid.
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  #40  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:10 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjackdog View Post
That's it. You use the word "bespoke" one more time, and you're out of the club.
it was the word of the day yesterday
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  #41  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:18 AM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Heck it still crushes the opponent like flies.

There isn't a single sedan out there that is faster in a straight line or around a track.

Not in the same price range there isn't.

Before anyone say anything about the Panamera, the GTS is way slower, and the Turbo S cost two times as much as M5. So that's that.

As for "soul" and "driving excitement"?
I'm sorry but BMW's M stands for Motorsports.
As long as M5 still crushes most other cars on a track, that's all I care.
The driving excitement is superb. Read the reviews of the forum members on M5 Post, and my own review. Nobody who is buying this car is getting bored. I have owned an E36 M3 coupe, and an E46 M3 cabrio, and I would still rate the M5 as the most exciting car I have owned by some margin.

But as amazingly exciting as this car is to drive hard on the limits and on the Alpine passes (I have driven 3 of these alpine passes in my M5), the livability of this car in comfort mode on the city streets is astonishing. No other car can accomplish this Jekyll and Hyde personality.

To reinforce Smashhell's point, look at the company this car keeps at the Green Hell track.

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  #42  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:27 AM
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And this thing is f-ing awesome. I don't understand how anyone can call a car which EXCLUSIVELY has this feature to be not exciting. It feels like an F1 experience shifting in the M5 when you couple the M-HUD with the best DCT on the market. I also think the steering is the best on the market too - and beats the **** out of the EPS crap Porsche is using these days.

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  #43  
Old 10-05-2012, 05:56 AM
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that is pretty sweet
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  #44  
Old 10-05-2012, 06:57 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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ps one more point in fastestlaps, there have been probes made at the 7:55 timing - as to whether it's true - the administrators have provided additional details in the website as to why the 7:55 timing has been recorded. I have posted the info on this previously
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  #45  
Old 10-05-2012, 09:56 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
that is pretty sweet
I agree. HUD doesn't do much for me generally and I would not pay for it but that rev. and gear view would be helpful with a DCT. After having the DCT for 26k miles now I like it a lot but the one thing I miss the most compared to an MT is the direct and 100% immediately accurate gear selection on the downshifts. With the DCT under hard braking from high speeed into a tight corner you need to frantically flip through gears and you are not really sure where you endup without looking at the gear display in the instrument cluster or trying to keep count. With an MT you need none of that, each gear has a fixed position that you know where it is without having to look or think. You can also go directly from sixth to second and if you misjudged you can feel it in the reaction to the clutch engaging and quickly select another gear. All this without having to direct or re-focus your eyes away from the road. That HUD view would mitigate some of that. On the upshifts the DCT is superb and the auto mode has it's own charm. IN the scenario above it's actually quite cool in auto since when you dive into a corner with no pressure on the accelerator and then squeeze it there will be a phenomenal throttle blip that engage the rigth gear smoother than you thought possible. Due to the perfect blip there is no detectable impact on the speed when the gear engages that could unsettle your car. Then if you choose to bury the throttle it's another story

Last edited by solstice; 10-05-2012 at 10:00 AM.
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  #46  
Old 10-05-2012, 11:54 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I agree. HUD doesn't do much for me generally and I would not pay for it but that rev. and gear view would be helpful with a DCT. .....With the DCT under hard braking from high speeed into a tight corner you need to frantically flip through gears and you are not really sure where you endup without looking at the gear display in the instrument cluster or trying to keep count.
Yes - I have experienced exactly that - disconcerting and distracting when you really need to be focused. After a year and 12 K miles - I am not bored with the car - I still have a lot to learn. The nuances of M are subtle and require a deft hand and sharp mental acuity to fully exploit. I'm thinking of treating myself to M school to refine my M skills generally and my DCT skills specifically, and then maybe, returning north by the scenic route via the "Tail".
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Last edited by Capobranco; 10-05-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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  #47  
Old 10-05-2012, 01:01 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Yes - I have experienced exactly that - disconcerting and distracting when you really need to be focused. After a year and 12 K miles - I am not bored with the car - I still have a lot to learn. The nuances of M are subtle and require a deft hand and sharp mental acuity to fully exploit. I'm thinking of treating myself to M school to refine my M skills generally and my DCT skills specifically, and then maybe, returning north by the scenic route via the "Tail".
Due to this I usually put the DCT in auto mode as I begin to break hard from high speed and then go back to S mode after applying throttle in tight corners. Sweepers and high speed corners are all S mode. It becomes quite intuitive after a while. It's kind of like cheating and less engaging so I still miss an MT in these situations even if the DCT likely makes me quite a bit faster. And I do love the blips

Last edited by solstice; 10-05-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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  #48  
Old 10-05-2012, 01:07 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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Is the M HUD reconfigurable to a mode like the standard F10s?
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  #49  
Old 10-05-2012, 02:02 PM
smashhell smashhell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
To reinforce Smashhell's point, look at the company this car keeps at the Green Hell track.

Exactly!

Just look at how many supercars the M5 crushes on the ring.

It even beats the E92 M3 by a whole 10 seconds!

It is truly an awesome car.
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  #50  
Old 10-05-2012, 02:37 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smashhell View Post
Exactly!

Just look at how many supercars the M5 crushes on the ring.

It even beats the E92 M3 by a whole 10 seconds!

It is truly an awesome car.
If fast ring times equals "awesome car" to you then the M5 is perfect for you.
To me and others that have our doubts, ring times means nothing more than that it's a very powerful and very fast car. Fast does not equal overall awesome to us. I've owned cars that were multiples more fun than my F10 was even if the F10 would have lapped them within three laps at the ring. My 4-speed 110 hp 4 banger fwd Golf GTI Mk1 comes to mind. There is so much more than outright speed that makes up the fun to drive factor for some of us and I' have my doubts that the new M5 will tick many boxes for me outside raw power and speed.

I suspect that for drivers who love the non M F10s the M5 is the ultimate car but for us who don't it's probably not going to feel all that awesome and this test review make my doubts stronger.

Last edited by solstice; 10-05-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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