Inside Line "trashes" M5

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

Ridiculous review. What's even more ridiculous is that all of you assume its true, having never even driven the car.

I mean what makes this guy a more credible reviewer than Richard Hammond or Chris Harris?

Agreed. This is coming from someone who has driven the M5/M6 on the road and the track.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

You are right on the mark.

What makes the M5 special is that it's a car that you are excited to drive on the streets. It's power and handling are perfectly honed for the Alpine roads, the mountains and hills, the city streets and the highways.

Is it the ultimate track car? No it isn't. The Ariel Atom is far better.

However this review is effectively judging the M5 by the wrong standards. It's like saying the Porsche 911 GT3 is rubbish because the Ariel Atom gives you more feel, more excitement, more connection to the road. But try driving an Ariel Atom to the office in the rain!

The M5 to me - is the best possible saloon car I would want to drive on public roads. And nothing comes close. You give me an example and I will tell you why it isn't as good.

Panamera - too quiet, lacks excitement, instrumentation is not good enough for driving at the limit (e.g. no shift indicators in HUD), steering wheel is too thin and not conducive to control.

CLS63 AMG - balance is not quite perfect. Doesn't corner as well. Also doesn't have good instrumentation. Transmission is too slow.

M3 - not particularly luxurious, jumpy over expansion joints, not fast enough.

E63 AMG - Ugly, and same issues as CLS63 AMG

S6 - AWD unable to deliver the same driving excitement. Where's the power sliding?

Cadillac CTS-V - haven't driven it and I have no intention of doing so. Its a smaller car and it looks like ****.

So having ruled out the sedan competition, you are left with sports cars. Well that's comparing apples and oranges isn't it?

I agree with your statement completely and this is coming from someone who was pretty set on the Panamara. Now, I personally think the Panny and E63 are great cars, but the M5 is the better car for a lower price. That is the bottom line. The M5 has completely won me over and if I buy a sports sedan it WILL be the M5 and or x5M.

Originally Posted by highyo

i'm in the same boat. i don't think there can be a better car made than the m3 (and btw, many many many reviews will say the same thing). it feels like a bespoke suit

Agree. This is coming from a former M3 owner. The M3 is great and the M5 fixes the few things I do not like about the M3.

Originally Posted by highyo

as an M car owner, it sticks in my craw that the first line of a review is

Underwhelming. The 2013 BMW M5 is underwhelming.

We're shocked. No, we're disappointed. Is this really an M5 we don't love? An M5 we wouldn't sell our kids in order to buy? An M5 we don't just want to drive all day to go nowhere?

It is. It absolutely is.

Yep.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

I have driven all of these cars too. Some of them on tracks. And I still rate the M5. The only one that comes close in my opinion is the CLS63. The choice of that it the M5 is a matter of taste.

But the XFR, Panamera GTS and CTS-V are poor competitors that I wouldn't consider of the same calibre.

Hmm...slightly disagree here. I would say the Panny GTS trumps the AMG cars, but hey to each his own. The days of boaty piss poor handling AMG cars are over though. The new AMG cars clearly are getting more and more BMW like in their handling and execution. The problem is BMW keeps upping the bar.....

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

I call discrimination

Still haven't answered how much will the nannies save you if you mash it at a light? better than your 550i? I must know because I must be able to do it lol

The nannies are quite evident. How do I know? Because I switched the nannies off at a BMW driving event and nearly melted the rear tires off the car. After that I was told not to do that again. It was fun though, but makes me realize just how much you can lose control of the rear end with the electrical aids off. My advice...leave them on.

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP

Hmm...slightly disagree here. I would say the Panny GTS trumps the AMG cars, but hey to each his own. The days of boaty piss poor handling AMG cars are over though. The new AMG cars clearly are getting more and more BMW like in their handling and execution. The problem is BMW keeps upping the bar.....

Yeah I think my reaction to the GTS is based on the lack of forced induction. I can't live without forced induction.

It's interesting that all the forum members who have driven the new M5 completely disagree with these negative reviews.

Here's another interesting review from another forum member who is an ex E39 M5 owner and current Panamera Turbo owner from Northern Europe who test drove the F10 M5.

Originally Posted by KIP

Finally got my test drive last week, after the press had let the car go... Dont know if anyone cares how an ex E39 M5 owner, who has had AMG cars and now a PTT with the powerkit, thinks of the new M5, but here goes anyway.

Where do I start? The car was a gorgeous lightning blue, but sadly the tires were very worn after the press. It affected my test a little, but luckily it was dry when I drove it and only started to rain at the end of the test drive. Yes, we get a lot of rain and snow here.

Back to the car, did I allready mention it is a HOOLIGAN! There is a saying, or atleast there should be a saying, test drive the car yourself before making up your mind, magazines can give you a very wrong impression. Calling this car too refined is BS, it totally convinced me. The blue color suits it very well and is the best color with the blue brake calipers. I walked past the black showroom car earlier, without noticing its an M5 and didnt really like its red seats. But if you like to be really stelthy, black is your color. This blue car was visible from a long way in the parking lot. The center console I didnt like with the red interior, but somehow it looked much better with the black interior in this car. It is a very modern and sporty place to be. This car had comfort seats, which I found to be adequate, very comfortable, but they still offered some lateral support and I managed to get a very good driving position. I also liked the steeringwheel feeling.

Power and Performance: I have a hard time understanding people who would want more power in a family sedan, 560bhp is ENOUGH! This a very powerful car. It didnt have a noticable turbo lag. I am very surprised by this. The power came instantly, and although there is somekind of lag, it is not noticable as you get instant action when mashing the throttle. Very different than my old 997TT for example. I experienced extreme traction issues though and it was very hard to launch from a dig. On the highway its a different story. The power is almost instant and there is enough of it. Yes, there is really a lot of power in this car. I tried driving in the sportiest settings in the city stop-go traffic. Its undrivable. The same car that behaves like a 1.0l VW Polo with the comfort mode, feels like you are trying to hold a bear using dental floss. I havent experienced bunny hopping for many years now, actually not since the E39 M5, but managed it with this car. Its an insanly cool and stimulating car this. In the Panny you can easily drive it in sport plus mode and it totally obays your every move. It is a more obedient subordinate! Hence I think the M5 is a hooligan, but one that puts a smile on your face.

About the equipment. This test car had the self sealing doors. I really dont think this is an option I would pay for. The head up display is really cool. I have polarized sunglasses and the system didnt work with those, but it is a really cool feature and think all cars should have this.
I liked the lane change and depart systems. They worked without being intrusive. It also had standard audio, which I found to be adequate. I was listening to the sound with an open roof for most of the time anyway. Boy was it fun to mash the throttle in a tunnel. Actually in the tunnel with the sunroof open, it is the only time I hear my Panny. Why does it have to be so quiet inside even with sport exhaust on? Dont hate sound sympozers, love them. If they work like in the M5, I dont care what or who makes the sound. I also liked it in the A6 biturbo. Bring it on! WHo cares where it comes from.

Plusses: Sound, sound and sound. Maybe coming from an überquiet car it made me smile. The car has insane amounts of power. The turbos are virtually lag free and the gear changes are really quick and seemless. This is a truly fantastic M-car and brings me back memories of the E39 M5. -It also looks very nice, they really succeeded in the looks. I think it actually looks as good as the 6 series, in the previous models I think the &-series was clearly a better looking car.
-The car has an insane amount of power, and to those waiting for the tuning I really dont get why anyone would ant more power on a RWD car, but of course this is a personal opinnion.
-Fuel consumption. In the PTT I managed 11.8 l/100km on the way to the shop and the same route with the M5, 8.7 l/100km!!!!!! All I can say is wow. I even got 6.7l/100km when driving 90km/h!

Minuses (relative):
-I think although the gear change lever looks nice and the reverse mode resembles a manual gearbox, I found it a little hard to use. I prefer a setup more resembling an automatic. I think they made it this way just to make people feel more like its a manual gearbox. For example throughout the test drive the car shouted at me that it is not in P when I stopped, but there is no way you can select P. I believe it is automatic and engages when you turn the engine off? The car deliverer actually stepped out of the car and it started rolling until he jumoed back in, so it isnt just me.
-The blinker thing is just not logical, I had to turn it off manually to stop blinking constantly. Didnt bother to read the manual how it should be operated, dont think one should.
-WHy does the start stop thing work in sport plus mode?? In my Panny it only works when the car is in comfort mode
-Why doesnt it have AWD as an option for those who need it?

Compared to the Panny:
-This car lets you be more unnoticed in the city. Other BMW drivers went crazy and drove past me at insane speeds with their thumbs up when they saw it, but others didnt notice it that much. This I like. The Panny gets amateur photographers everywhere and if you try to change the lane in the city, other drivers are sure to try to block the move.
-The seating feel makes the Panny feel like a sportscar, but...and I never though I would say this... I got more of a sportscar feeling from the M5. The Panny is extremly quiet and you only get the sense of speed from other passangers shouting. The M5 growls and makes bang noises when downshifting. Simple speedo coparison seemed to be similar in both cars, but boy did you feel it in the M5. The back end slides as you almost lose it and the exhaust shouts the V8 sounds. Very exciting! That said the Panny with its PDCC turns a little better in corners, without any leaning. In the sound segment the M5 wins 6-0.
-I like the Panny interior more, but somehow I think they made the car too luxurious at the expense of sportiness. I think the M5 interior would be enough for me, its very modern and I kind of liked the idrive system. Little mixed feelings on the dotted aluminum.
-The M5 seems to pull more the faster you go, there is a lot of power available and the chassis really follows your moves, but I feel there is a traction control. It was very hard to get moving from stop, there is so much slipping and sliding going on. In my opinnion in the sport plus, fastet gearchange mode, it was honestly a little scary at times. The torque kicks in instantly feg. in corners when you throttle it and sometimes makes the back behave a little unexpectedly, a little like when motorcycles get the shakes. In the Panny you never get this feeling and you fell like you could tune it forever and in a similar situation the back end just slides easily. I think this was mostly due to the worn out tires though. Still, I think there is a limit to how much power there can be in a RWD family sedan and this is close to it.
-The Pannys standard paddles on the steering wheel are not logical and dont feel right. The extra cost paddles are perfect, but you lose the multifunctionality. The M5 paddles are a perfect combination of both.

To end my writing, I really liked the car. It is very hard not to. I was hoping Id hate it, as I really cant live without AWD, unless I move back to the city. If you dont need AWD, this really is the car for you who likes REALLY FAST sedans. I think the M5 is intended at younger customers than the Panny, but I definately dont feel too old for the M5. For some reason when I drove the RS5 I felt a little embarassed by the throttle blips etc. and felt old, the RS6 was more refined, but lacked the exhaust noise, resembling the Panny actually. However, the RS6 also had a numb steering feel. The M5 is now a very good combination of everyday usability and a monster waiting to be unleashed. I really would like to buy this car, but the winters here are long and snowy and I just cant seem to get myself back to a RWD car anymore. I think if you wouldnt get home at all minimum x2 in a year you would get my point. Then the M550d will probably be too refined for my taste.

I honestly think this is the best M5 so far by a long way. And if you compare it to all of the AMG's I have driven? I still think BMW makes cars with probably the best steering feel in the world, the AMG's cant match it. You feel really connected to the road. BTW those thinking of a manual gearbox, please try the dct, its very good.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

Yeah I think my reaction to the GTS is based on the lack of forced induction. I can't live without forced induction.

my 8400 rpm redline s65 frowns in your general direction

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

Yeah I think my reaction to the GTS is based on the lack of forced induction. I can't live without forced induction.

Did I just got re-directed to an S&M site?

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

It's interesting that all the forum members who have driven the new M5 completely disagree with these negative reviews.

Here's another interesting review from another forum member who is an ex E39 M5 owner and current Panamera Turbo owner from Northern Europe who test drove the F10 M5.

I remember seeing this post by Kip. The fact that this comes from a Panny Turbo owner speaks volumes. He makes great points. For those who do not know...Kip and a few other festers also hang out over on 6 speed online and M5 post (Stealth, myself, Leslie, ect).

Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP

I remember seeing this post by Kip. The fact that this comes from a Panny Turbo owner speaks volumes. He makes great points. For those who do not know...Kip and a few other festers also hang out over on 6 speed online and M5 post (Stealth, myself, Leslie, ect).

That makes perfect sense. If you buy a Panny turbo you are prioritizing and looking for a combination of maximum power,speed and luxury in a sedan, a formula the M5 excels in.

Originally Posted by highyo

my 8400 rpm redline s65 frowns in your general direction

Ha Ha! - great Monty Python inference notwithstanding - why frown?

At the invitation of my SA I got to experience both the M5 and M6 yesterday. My reaction - wow! - both are beautiful, powerful expressions of BMW and M. I was especially impressed with the artful nature of the M6. When asked the obvious question if I wanted to make the M6 mine - I declined. In contrast to my M3, these cars are targeted to a different audience and provide a very different driving experience. Given the M5 and M6 are based on F10 DNA - one would reasonably expect the M5 and M6 would be larger, more luxurious, slightly more insulated expressions of M. If I were in the market for a large, fast, powerful GT, I would find them irresistible choices especially if the competition was the awkward Porsche Panamera

As I said previously, IMO the M5 and M6 should be evaluated and appreciated on their own terms, for what they are - not vis-a-vis an immutable M ideal.

I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I have any valuable input.

Coming from a former e39 M5 owner, and someone who believe the e39 M5 is the best looking BMW ever made, I think the new M5 looks incredible. Its disappointing to read a lot of the negative reviews about this car. Seems like the M5 has always had a certain badass aura around it. As soon as I heard the new one was going turbo, I knew it was going to be a mistake. Now that the M3 is following its footsteps, I fear the days of truly exciting cars from the ///M factory are behind us.

Originally Posted by Ryan...

I haven't read the whole thread, nor do I have any valuable input.

Coming from a former e39 M5 owner, and someone who believe the e39 M5 is the best looking BMW ever made, I think the new M5 looks incredible. Its disappointing to read a lot of the negative reviews about this car. Seems like the M5 has always had a certain badass aura around it. As soon as I heard the new one was going turbo, I knew it was going to be a mistake. Now that the M3 is following its footsteps, I fear the days of truly exciting cars from the ///M factory are behind us.

Make no mistake.
The F10 M5 is still a great car.
Every single review all agrees at one point or another that it's a great car.
All the complains are all about how it's too luxury, too isolated, not enough 'feel' etc.
But as it stand no one can argue the M5 is not great. It just doesn't suit some people's taste.

Originally Posted by smashhell

Make no mistake.
The F10 M5 is still a great car.
Every single review all agrees at one point or another that it's a great car.
All the complains are all about how it's too luxury, too isolated, not enough 'feel' etc.
But as it stand no one can argue the M5 is not great. It just doesn't suit some people's taste.

No doubt its great, from what I hear ALL the new 5 series are great. The M5 though, is supposed to be above and beyond all the other models, and a turbo V8 that needs engine noise filtered into the cabin isn't going to cut it for a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Ryan...

No doubt its great, from what I hear ALL the new 5 series are great. The M5 though, is supposed to be above and beyond all the other models, and a turbo V8 that needs engine noise filtered into the cabin isn't going to cut it for a lot of people.

The active sound is fine tuning. wdimagineer has it switched off on his M5 and he is very happy with the authentic sound.

Personally I have the active sound on because it sounds real to me,

How's gas mileage stealth?

Originally Posted by dunderhi

The new ATS-V will be Cadillac's first M3 competitor and it will compete against the F30 M3, just as the current ATS' are competing against the current F30s. The new CTS-V will continue to compete against M5, just as the current version does. Below are the specs for the E90 M3, E60 M5, CTS-V, and F10 M5. It's obvious to that the M3 is in a different class, and shouldn't be compared to the M5's or the CTS. Argue, if you must, about the Caddy's rear leg room, just watch out for the lack of front leg and head room in the F10.

Test Weight: 3765lbs (E90 M3) 4215lbs (E60 M5) 4475lbs (CTS-V) 4525lbs (F10 M5)
Wheelbase: 108.7" (E90 M3) 113.7" (E60 M5) 113.4" (CTS-V) 116.7" (F10 M5)
Length: 180.4" (E90 M3) 191.5" (E60 M5) 191.6" (CTS-V) 193.5" (F10 M5)
Width: 71.5" (E90 M3) 72.7" (E60 M5) 72.5" (CTS-V) 74.4" (F10 M5)
Height: 57.0" (E90 M3) 57.8" (E60 M5) 58.0" (CTS-V) 57.3" (F10 M5)
Front head room: 38.0" (E90 M3) 40.0" (E60 M5) 39.5" (CTS-V) 38.5" (F10 M5)
Rear head room: 35.5" (E90 M3) 36.5" (E60 M5) 35.0" (CTS-V) 35.8" (F10 M5)
Front Leg room: 46.0" (E90 M3) 44.0" (E60 M5) 45.8" (CTS-V) 44.3" (F10 M5)
Rear Knee room: 25.3" (E90 M3) 25.5" (E60 M5) 23.5" (CTS-V) 24.0" (F10 M5)
Trunk space: 12.0" (E90 M3) 14cuft (E60 M5) 13.6cuft (CTS-V) 14.0" cuft(F10 M5)
0-60mph: 4.6s (E90 M3) 4.1s (E60 M5) 4.2s (CTS-V) 4.1s (F10 M5) 3.6s (F10 M5 DCT)
0-1320 ft: 13.0@110.4mph (E90 M3) 12.4@115.8mph (E60 M5) 12.5@115.3mph (CTS-V) 12.3@116.7mph (F10 M5) 11.9@119.7 mph (F10 M5 DCT)
80mph-0: 195ft (E90 M3) 207ft (E60 M5) 201ft (CTS-V) 201ft (F10 M5)
Lat Accel: 0.95 (E90 M3) 0.87 (E60 M5) 0.92 (CTS-V) 0.97 (F10 M5)
Slalom: 72.9mph (E90 M3) 68.9mph (E60 M5) 70.5mph (CTS-V) 71.0mph (F10 M5)
Noise@70mph: 70dBa (E90 M3) 70dBA (E60 M5) 70dBA (CTS-V) 70dBA (F10 M5)
Top Speed: 155mph* (E90 M3) 155mph* (E60 M5) 191mph (CTS-V) 155mph* (F10 M5) *limiter
All data from Road & Track test measurements.

Again, not a fan of the CTS-V, just getting the facts out there.




Anyway, Car and Driver had some comparo fun and picked the appropriate Cadillac, the XTS, to go against the Bentley Flying Spur. Despite the $186,010 difference in price, the Bentley won: 2013 Cadillac XTS vs 2012 Bentley Continental Flying Spur Speed. The better news is that the 2013 Bentley CFSS is faster and more fuel efficient.

Unfortunately, the $63,350 difference in price between the M6 convertible and the Camaro ZL1 convertible was too big for the more expensive car to prevail: 2013 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 convertible vs 2012 BMW M6 convertible. Before anyone gets too upset, the Camaro ZL1 Coupe has 7:41 ring time, so it has real performance credentials!

Man!

Dunderhi, did you pick woman to marry based on biometrics?

- breast-waist-hips measurement
- torso/legs ratio
- distance from the pupils to the center of the mouth
- distance from the tip of the nose to the cheekbones
- height of forehead
- depth from the pupils to the forehead
- length of spread hands to height ratio

And so on.

Things are either right or they are not. Way too many intangibles. Check list making it a "luxury" car brought Cadillac where it was 4 years ago.

M5 might be (and it probably is) an AWESOME car, but it probably is a bad M5.

That's not very hard to figure out.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Bimmer App

Originally Posted by SuperTerp

How's gas mileage stealth?

Hard to tell at this stage but I think about 1-2mpg less than what I got in the 550i.

But hard to tell because there is a difference between driving in the Alps and driving in the flat state of Florida.

Originally Posted by Mark K

M5 might be (and it probably is) an AWESOME car, but it probably is a bad M5.

Nicely said. At least for people who have certain expectations from a brand they have been following for a while and have come to expect a few things such as involvement in the driving process beyond acceleration and electronics.

Originally Posted by Stavrs

Nicely said. At least for people who have certain expectations from a brand they have been following for a while and have come to expect a few things such as involvement in the driving process beyond acceleration and electronics.

Did you read the review by the former E39 M5, 997TT owner and current Panamera Turbo driver that I posted above?

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

Did you read the review by the former E39 M5, 997TT owner and current Panamera Turbo driver that I posted above?

He probably did, but then this just came in, so he didn't bother.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/10/09...ag-race-video/

Just teasing, really. But it IS mind-boggling nonetheless. Number-Guys special.

Originally Posted by Mark K

He probably did, but then this just came in, so he didn't bother.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/10/09...ag-race-video/

Just teasing, really. But it IS mind-boggling nonetheless. Number-Guys special.

I guess there is a certain appeal to doing that all day for the urbanites and get 90 mpg ( however they calculate that ). It launches like crazy, I wonder what the 0-60 time is. Very decent car for being an electric. I lament the day we see an all electric M lineup though. Hopefully that will be after I'm done with cars.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

Did you read the review by the former E39 M5, 997TT owner and current Panamera Turbo driver that I posted above?

What for though? Those are opinions - as my comment is too - that to me are not representative of what an M5 should be and what other people also expect it to be. For me the F10 550 was kind of an awakening and had to get rid of it with a few months (yes, I have driven the M5 too). I am really not for the direction BMW is taking and believe me it feels strange to no longer drive one daily, still coming to these forums. I still do hope this direction changes soon - it is not what brought me to the brand to begin with.

Originally Posted by Mark K

He probably did, but then this just came in, so he didn't bother.

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/10/09...ag-race-video/

Just teasing, really. But it IS mind-boggling nonetheless. Number-Guys special.

It can definitely use some of that BMW sound system exhaust technology

Originally Posted by solstice

I guess there is a certain appeal to doing that all day for the urbanites and get 90 mpg ( however they calculate that ). It launches like crazy, I wonder what the 0-60 time is. Very decent car for being an electric. I lament the day we see an all electric M lineup though. Hopefully that will be after I'm done with cars.

I understand what you are saying and to make it even more clear, I'll tell you that I drive with my windows open between 40 and 90 degrees F since my PPK I install that changed drastically my exhaust sound. I NEVER drove with windows open since I bought my first car with AC (in Europe) in 1995, but the BMW kit made it a must for me to open the windows and enjoy the symphony abusing it quite a bit.

This said, I have to admit I'm looking forward (dying actually) to find to buy an EV with:

- one electric motor per wheel
- very good software to manage those motors allowing AWD, FWD and RWD configurations at the push of the switch/button
- millisecond management of the torque regardless of the driving mode getting the best out of either mode selected (no Haldex oily BS on any of the axles)
- battery pack on a moving rail to allow shift of the "ballast" front-aft at the push of the button

Now, you offer me THAT car for reasonable price and I will laugh any ///M attempt using ICE. Tesla is still not there yet, but I wouldn't discount them going just the way I described above. Then they will have a giddy customer dying to test-drive their wares right here once they get it together.

Originally Posted by Mark K

Man!

Dunderhi, did you pick woman to marry based on biometrics?

- breast-waist-hips measurement
- torso/legs ratio
- distance from the pupils to the center of the mouth
- distance from the tip of the nose to the cheekbones
- height of forehead
- depth from the pupils to the forehead
- length of spread hands to height ratio

And so on.

Things are either right or they are not. Way too many intangibles. Check list making it a "luxury" car brought Cadillac where it was 4 years ago.

M5 might be (and it probably is) an AWESOME car, but it probably is a bad M5.

That's not very hard to figure out.
Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Bimmer App

Actually it was her superior encephalization quotient that was the key datum, but the breast-waist-hips measurement did provide compelling supporting evidence!

As far as the car measurements are concerned, I just got tired of people bemoaning that the CTS-V was an M3 competitor and not an M5 competitor and it wasn't fair comparing the agile CTS-V to the heavier M5, like 50lbs puts it in in a different class.

I'll also add I haven't read what I consider a bad review of the M5 yet, but some folks seem to be overly sensitive that every word about the M5 must absolutely positive, else the reviewers don't have a clue. I look forward to taking an M5/6 for a spin and being familiar with the chassis that is is built upon, my expectations will be in the direction of certain types of improvements, rather than longing for a nostalgic feel of M5s past. Apparently Cadillac makes an fine car for those die-hard "give NVH or give me death" traditionalists.

Originally Posted by solstice

That makes perfect sense. If you buy a Panny turbo you are prioritizing and looking for a combination of maximum power,speed and luxury in a sedan, a formula the M5 excels in.

and the Panny doesn't handle well?

Did your E60 handle better than the Panny turbo, and which E60 turbo did you own and enjoy, causing you to purchase the F10 without test driving it?