Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)

E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-09-2012, 08:14 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Combustion misfire problem

Guys,

I'm losing my hair here. I recently bought 2010 335-I X-Drive with 58K miles. After driving it for only 2K miles since purchase I started having peculiar problem: when I start car cold (in the morning) RPM indicator goes haywire. It goes up and down and when it settles a bit the car is like having breathing problems - suffocating, shaking violently, exaust shoots out. Check engine light pops up. Within 5-7 minutes everything normalizes and the car works ok. I brought it to my mechanic (afraid to take it to dealership since it's over 50K miles and off the warranty) and he checked the problem. Computer shows Cyllinders 4, 5, 6 combustion misfire. Mecanic replased sparkplugs, relay for 4-5-6, but the problem persists. From what I hear it may be serious problem relating to ECU. I will take it to dealership, since I have no other options, but meanwhile if anybody has any advise, please give it to me.

Thank you,

Serge
Reply With Quote
Ads by Google
  #2  
Old 10-09-2012, 08:41 AM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
i would suspect, in this order:
1) faulty fuel injectors. there was a service campaign. you can check with a bmw dealer to find out if it was ever done for you car. if not it should be free. my guess is that the fuel injectors are slowly leaking while the car is sitting overnight, making those cylinders misfire on first start.

2) (less likely) carbon build up on the intake valves. fix would be a walnut shell blasting.
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:

Last edited by Orient330iNYC; 10-09-2012 at 08:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-09-2012, 08:42 AM
CALWATERBOY's Avatar
CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Francisco
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,009
Mein Auto: 2009 E93 N54
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post

I'm losing my hair here....if anybody has any advise, please give it to me.

Put the Rogaine away; check your intake valves. Gunked? Coked? Plain ugly? Time for a walnut shell shower.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:08 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Thank you, guys! I asked my mecanic about the above mentioned solutions and he doesn't sound confident about looking into it and fixing it. So I'm taking it to a dealer and will post what he has to say about that problem. Thanks again.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:11 AM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post
Thank you, guys! I asked my mecanic about the above mentioned solutions and he doesn't sound confident about looking into it and fixing it. So I'm taking it to a dealer and will post what he has to say about that problem. Thanks again.
out of curiousity, how much did he charge for the plug replacement?

what he should have done is moved a plug and a coil from a non misfiring cylinder to one that is and see if the problem moved with the plug/coil.

sounds like he's throwing parts and your money at the problem.

this is a link to the recall docs:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...51&postcount=3
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:

Last edited by Orient330iNYC; 10-09-2012 at 09:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:21 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC View Post
out of curiousity, how much did he charge for the plug replacement?

what he should have done is moved a plug and a coil from a non misfiring cylinder to one that is and see if the problem moved with the plug/coil.

sounds like he's throwing parts and your money at the problem.

this is a link to the recall docs:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...51&postcount=3
He took $450 for the replacement of those parts. He replaced them with dealer's oroginal parts. The problem is, even the other guy, whom I took it to today for second opinion, could not tell me what's wrong with my car once it's hot. He needs to see how it behaves in the morning.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:25 AM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
I'm going for 'cold start' engine management problems, probably device related rather than software. The fact that it runs good when warm can't be overlooked. It is possible that the B2S1 O2 Sensor is fubar, that would account for the 4,5,6 related code.
Again, I'm going for simple here. I don't discount the carbon but that doesn't fit getting a misfire code on all the cylinders on one bank of an I6 engine.
If I had a scanner on this engine the first things I'd look at are ISC motor percentage vs. rpm vs.desired rpm, STFT on both banks, and of course indicated engine temperature. Then I'd look at O2 values starting at cold start. It's possible that the B2S1 heater is going bad.
It's very significant that the engine smooths out in 5 minutes, that's right when most engines are switching over from preprogrammed (ROM) cold start strategies to real time computer control.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:33 AM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post
He took $450 for the replacement of those parts. He replaced them with dealer's oroginal parts. The problem is, even the other guy, whom I took it to today for second opinion, could not tell me what's wrong with my car once it's hot. He needs to see how it behaves in the morning.
Ouch.
Totally agree on testing the car in the morning. BUT does he know he can access Mode 2 data which is a record of every single sensor's values, and the position of all commanded devices, at the exact time the code was set? That stuff is commonly called 'freeze frame' data and is invaluable in diagnosing engines when the problem is not happening now. Your engine has all kinds of secrets, you just have to sweet talk it into giving them up.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:41 AM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Ouch.
Totally agree on testing the car in the morning. BUT does he know he can access Mode 2 data which is a record of every single sensor's values, and the position of all commanded devices, at the exact time the code was set? That stuff is commonly called 'freeze frame' data and is invaluable in diagnosing engines when the problem is not happening now. Your engine has all kinds of secrets, you just have to sweet talk it into giving them up.
+1
where in brooklyn are you?
bay diagnostics has an autologic scanner that should be able to read the freeze frame data. or if you know someone that has a bav technic diagnostic cable.
http://www.baydiagnostic.com/bmw.php

dsx: i'm going to bet a wooden nickel on it being injectors. where can i mail it, since you're probably right.
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:43 AM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Whoa! This is a 2010 with 58 on the clock! There's a very good chance this MUST be covered at no cost on the EPA extended warranty requirement! If any device results in increased emissions, or the possibility of increased emissions, then it must be repaired or replaced at no charge (some exceptions, some mileage/time restrictions depending on the component).
Serge needs to take it to the dealer and let us know what the dealer finds and whether they'll cover the cost. If he takes it to an indy for diagnosis then it is legal and fair for the indy to charge for his time.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:56 AM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC View Post
+1
where in brooklyn are you?
bay diagnostics has an autologic scanner that should be able to read the freeze frame data. or if you know someone that has a bav technic diagnostic cable.
http://www.baydiagnostic.com/bmw.php

dsx: i'm going to bet a wooden nickel on it being injectors. where can i mail it, since you're probably right.
LOL, I sure don't discount the possibility, it's just that it's odd that it's 3 injectors on one bank. Could happen. It was common a few years back when one bad injector could result in a misfire for 3. Let's say the #5 was leaking so that the B2S1 picked up constant rich. The computer would than back off STFT for that entire bank which could result in lean misfires on all the cylinders in that bank.

It is my understanding that the OP's computer is smart enough to look at crankshaft velocity after each spark and so can sort out individual bad cylinders and adjust fuel for those cylinders. That means it can leave the 'good' injectors alone so that a misfire code would point directly at the bad cylinder.

So...it it's injectors it would take a real coincidence that it's 3 in a row. I'd be more likely to look at intake guck, as you suggested, if I'm wrong on idle management.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10-09-2012, 10:01 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Scheduled appointment with a dealer. Will keep you updated guys. BTW, will print all your suggestions and hand it to a dealer. Thank you for your help!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10-09-2012, 11:57 AM
Zooks527's Avatar
Zooks527 Zooks527 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Mansfield, MA
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,726
Mein Auto: 2009 335i xDrive coupe
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
So...it it's injectors it would take a real coincidence that it's 3 in a row. I'd be more likely to look at intake guck, as you suggested, if I'm wrong on idle management.
A 1-in-10 chance they'll all be on the same bank if 3 injectors fail. Better odds than the wheel at Foxwoods.
__________________
2009 335i xDrive coupe, Jet Black, Black Leather, Grey Poplar, Steptronic, ZPP, ZSP, ZCW, iPod/USB, HD radio, Parking Assist. Rear Fogs, Hardwire V1, ProFit G3.
ED May 12, 2009, Munich dropoff May 16, Redelivery June 22, 2009




Prior 33 years of cars: 1967 BelAir wagon / 1968 LeMans Tempest / 1970 Mustang Mach 1 / 1972 El Dorado / 1978 Corvette (kept until first Bronco) / 1981 Subaru GL wagon AWD / 1983 s10 Blazer 4x4 (big mistake) / 1985 Bronco 4x4 / 1996 Bronco 4x4 / 2004 Passat 4motion
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
A 1-in-10 chance they'll all be on the same bank if 3 injectors fail. Better odds than the wheel at Foxwoods.
unless they all came from the same bad batch
from the field i've heard of the recall replacing all, three, four or even just two injectors.
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:09 PM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
A 1-in-10 chance they'll all be on the same bank if 3 injectors fail. Better odds than the wheel at Foxwoods.
Isn't it a one in eight chance?
First injector has a one in two chance of being from bank A,
Second injector, same,
Third injector same.
1/2*1/2*1/2=1/8 or
.5 * .5 * .5=.125

Actually, the odds are better than that now that I think about it. Those would be the odds of them coming from just bank A. If we say we don't care which bank the first one comes from then all we have to do is match whichever bank it came from with the next two, so the odds are one in four.

Or...The first one fails in bank A, what are the odds the next one will be bank A? Two in five or .4. What are the odds the next one will be from bank A? One in four or .25.

.4 * .25 = .1 or ONE IN TEN, damnit Zooks, I thought the legs were the first to go.

(45 years since Probability and Statistics 101 is my excuse.)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:12 PM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post
Scheduled appointment with a dealer. Will keep you updated guys. BTW, will print all your suggestions and hand it to a dealer. Thank you for your help!
Yes, give the SA all the information you learned on the internetz. That'll give him a good laugh to start his day. I wouldn't. Instead bring in a dozen donuts.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:34 PM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Isn't it a one in eight chance?
First injector has a one in two chance of being from bank A,
Second injector, same,
Third injector same.
1/2*1/2*1/2=1/8 or
.5 * .5 * .5=.125

Actually, the odds are better than that now that I think about it. Those would be the odds of them coming from just bank A. If we say we don't care which bank the first one comes from then all we have to do is match whichever bank it came from with the next two, so the odds are one in four.

Or...The first one fails in bank A, what are the odds the next one will be bank A? Two in five or .4. What are the odds the next one will be from bank A? One in four or .25.

.4 * .25 = .1 or ONE IN TEN, damnit Zooks, I thought the legs were the first to go.

(45 years since Probability and Statistics 101 is my excuse.)
this would be assuming all 6 injectors are installed at the same time from the same pool of injectors.

if each bank is installed seperately, and each bank gets injectors from different lots......
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:44 PM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC View Post
this would be assuming all 6 injectors are installed at the same time from the same pool of injectors.

if each bank is installed seperately, and each bank gets injectors from different lots......
Then we need to know the percent defective in each lot and how many lots we're dealing with...then you or Zooks can do the math. My head will explode.

Sounds like a practical application of chaos theory.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:55 PM
CALWATERBOY's Avatar
CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Francisco
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 10,009
Mein Auto: 2009 E93 N54
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
I'm going for 'cold start' engine management problems, probably device related rather than software. The fact that it runs good when warm can't be overlooked. It is possible that the B2S1 O2 Sensor is fubar, that would account for the 4,5,6 related code.
Again, I'm going for simple here. I don't discount the carbon but that doesn't fit getting a misfire code on all the cylinders on one bank of an I6 engine.
If I had a scanner on this engine the first things I'd look at are ISC motor percentage vs. rpm vs.desired rpm, STFT on both banks, and of course indicated engine temperature. Then I'd look at O2 values starting at cold start. It's possible that the B2S1 heater is going bad.
It's very significant that the engine smooths out in 5 minutes, that's right when most engines are switching over from preprogrammed (ROM) cold start strategies to real time computer control.

Mighty good advice and prob not carbon, as I glossed over it disappearing on reaching temp....
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10-11-2012, 06:35 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
So I went to a local dealer

And this is what needed to be done:



So far so good, but to be 100% sure it has fixed the problem I need few more weeks. But the car starts much smoother now. Oh and as far as price... Dear BMW... Never... ever I own you without warranty. Period.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 10-11-2012, 08:18 AM
DSXMachina's Avatar
DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
Non compos Mentos
Location: New Hampshire
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,476
Mein Auto: 335i E92 TiAg 6MT ED
OK, Orient was 100% right with only a 10% chance of being right.

Double ouch on the price. I hope you at least got a free cup of coffee.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-11-2012, 08:43 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC View Post
out of curiousity, how much did he charge for the plug replacement?

what he should have done is moved a plug and a coil from a non misfiring cylinder to one that is and see if the problem moved with the plug/coil.

sounds like he's throwing parts and your money at the problem.

this is a link to the recall docs:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...51&postcount=3
Dealer said it was not covered under Extended Warranty because the problem was with low pressure injectors, not high pressure...
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-11-2012, 09:09 AM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post
Dealer said it was not covered under Extended Warranty because the problem was with low pressure injectors, not high pressure...
erm? the car only has high pressure injectors.
btw, life quality bmw is the worst dealership i've ever dealt with, they are really really shady
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-11-2012, 09:16 AM
immortal78 immortal78 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brooklyn
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: 2010 BMW 335I X-Drive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orient330iNYC View Post
erm? the car only has high pressure injectors.
btw, life quality bmw is the worst dealership i've ever dealt with, they are really really shady
Wow, what should I do? But I don't understand... What's the benefit for them to rip me off if they could get their money from BMW? Anyway, is there any way I can get to the thruth with them?

Last edited by immortal78; 10-11-2012 at 09:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-11-2012, 09:21 AM
Orient330iNYC's Avatar
Orient330iNYC Orient330iNYC is offline
Flying monkey herder
Location: Wall St
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,072
Mein Auto: Daihatsu Terrios
Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal78 View Post
Wow, what should I do? But I don't understand... What's the benefit for them to rip me off if they could get their money from BMW? Anyway, is there any way I can get thruth with them?
I checked the bulletin again, the hpfp recall covers 2010 cars. The injector recall covered up to 2009. I still think they charged a very high fee.

I would call bmwna to complain that the 2010 has the same issues as the recalled injectors and to see if they might goodwill cover part of the repair cost. Cant hurt to ask

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Bimmer App
__________________
Past: 2001 330i ZSP/ZPP/Step
Past: 2004 S60R 6MT Sport
Past: 2007 335i 6MT ZSP/ZCW/322/655
Past: 2010 335xi ZMP/ZCW/ZPP/PPK/PE
Present: 2013 335i 6MT ZMM/ZDH/ZTP/3AG/494/508
Current Homeland Threat Level:
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms