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X5 E53 (1999 - 2006)
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  #1  
Old 10-24-2012, 03:31 AM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Vanos or something else?

I have a 2000 X5 4.4i that has a misfire on ALL cyclinders on the drivers side but only at idle. The moment the rpms increase by 200, the misfire goes away and it rides like a dream.

I don't burn any oil.
I drive it 20 miles to and from work and havent had to add oil.
No smoke at start up or driving.

I only get the P codes for multiple misfire and misfire on 5,6,7 and 8

Ive done all of the typical things:
- new valve cover gaskets
- new intake manifold gasket
- new spark plugs
- switched all of the ignition coils from one side to the other side
- new MAF sensor
- took off the pre-cat O2 sensor to check for a plugged cat
- cleaned the injectors
- checked the ground to the ignition coils
- all hoses look and feel new

The misfire is constant but not that "poot' backfire sound.

I took it to and indy shop and they said it was the vanos ($1800 to replace)

has anyone ever experience misfires relating to their vanos?

Do you think changing just the solenoid would be a more likely culprit if the vanos is the culprit?
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2012, 06:07 AM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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That sounds right based on all the things you said. It seems that the VANOS unit on that one side was installed either too far left or right (can't remember which is what). The install procedure says to make sure it's centered so it can go both ways based on load variations.
It's probably at its max in one direction and is trying, but misfiring.
$1800 for a replacement is much at an Indy, hopefully they're doing both units as they should anyway. And your engine will be very quiet at idle after the replacement.

I had a talk with Dr.Vanos and they said because the M62's Vanos units are simple they usually don't go bad. I don't really believe that but they don't sell repair kits for the M62.
And it's not a solenoid per say its just a worm gear system that turns the intake cam shaft a few degrees past the actual timing which can open up intake valves a little sooner than TDC for improved low end performance. And more variations in there too.

Last edited by boramkiv; 10-24-2012 at 06:14 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2012, 04:59 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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I definitely don't have plans to spend that kind of money.

I don't mond getting my hands dirty and I'm pretty comfortable working on cars. I've owned well over thirty cars in my life time and have done some pretty serious repairs myself on them.

My question to you is, which would be easier for me as a shadetree mechanic, to change the driver side vanos or to replace the entire head with the vanos already installed? I can get a used head with the vanos that is working very well for $250.

If I do start this venture, could I lean on you for advice as I work my way through it?
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2012, 05:54 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boramkiv View Post
That sounds right based on all the things you said. It seems that the VANOS unit on that one side was installed either too far left or right (can't remember which is what). The install procedure says to make sure it's centered so it can go both ways based on load variations.
It's probably at its max in one direction and is trying, but misfiring.
$1800 for a replacement is much at an Indy, hopefully they're doing both units as they should anyway. And your engine will be very quiet at idle after the replacement.

I had a talk with Dr.Vanos and they said because the M62's Vanos units are simple they usually don't go bad. I don't really believe that but they don't sell repair kits for the M62.
And it's not a solenoid per say its just a worm gear system that turns the intake cam shaft a few degrees past the actual timing which can open up intake valves a little sooner than TDC for improved low end performance. And more variations in there too.
Now here's something interesting......at least to me it's interesting.

When I first purchased the car it was giving only the #6 misfire code, so after changing the water pump, I pulled the codes again and still was getting only the #6 misfire code.

So I replaced the #6 ignition coil but the misfire didn't go away and eventually I started getting the multiple misfire code (p0300) and the other 4 misfire codes for cylinders 5,6,7 and 8.

After changing the plugs, switch the ignition coils from one side to the other.....I still pulled the mutiple misfire codes for all cylinders on driver side.

Then I changed the valve cover gaskets, the intake manifold gaskets and the throttle body gasket and after that I only pulled the #6 misfire code. But a few days later the other misfire codes came back.

Now i changed the oil and today I checked the codes and the only one I pulled was the #6 misfire code.

I did disconnect the battery earlier, so it may just take a while for the other codes to generate.

But I do find it odd that the #6 misfire is always constant but the others are not. Seems strange that #6 always throws a code days before the others.

If the vanos is stuck in an open position, causing for the cam shaft to be turn x degrees all the time, that would mean all of the drivers side intake lifters are equally off in their timing. So that would also mean all of the driver side cylinders should throw the same codes at the same time.

Your thoughts....
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2012, 02:43 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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Do you have a good connection on the earth strap for that side? Did you stretch the coil pack wires to get them out of the way when removing the junction box? (If you did remove it) I was able to change my gaskets without removing the boxes. I got some scratches but it's part of the job for me. Here's a video below about the deep end (valley pan) which includes the shallow part which is this job. Notice at 1:25 a trick to remove the junction boxes. I'm not sure it's recommended, but it looks like snapping it back in may cause one of the 2 inner injectors (6-7) to not snap in correctly. Not saying you used this method, just trying to eliminate options here. A bad Vanos would cause a misfire on all that side, but since youre only getting one misfire that should
eliminate the Vanos unit. Is there ever a time you get no misfire, as in right after changing plugs, coils, etc and reconnecting the battery (assuming it was disconnected to do the job)
using a tool to read codes right after startup? Do you know what your idle RPM is or if it is rough? If it's not rough you may need to hook it up to INPA or equivalent to read actual values
if you dont have any. When you've done all the necessary mechanical things to make it work and it still doesn't work it's time to get the computers involved.

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  #6  
Old 11-04-2012, 04:30 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Thanks for the reply Boramkiv.

The misfire is on all cylinders on bank 2 driver side.

The #6 always throws a misfire code before the others but all 4 on the driver side eventually throw misfire codes within a day after the codes were cleared by disconnecting the battery. If I clear the codes with a Odb II scanner, the codes are thrown within minutes.

The misfire was there before I changed the gaskets and I did fully disconnected the junction boxes from the fuel rail. I have sincel gone back to double check my connections and they were secured properly.

I only get the misfire at idle and it misfires all the time at idle. The misfire goes away as soon as I start driving.

The engine idles at 600 rpm and the misfire seems to go away at around 900-1000 rpm.

The engine runs absolutely beautiful while driving. It's very powerful and it does not burn any oil or smoke.
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:22 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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Then you may have a vacuum leak. That's pretty much what comes to mind.
Not sure where, but that's the next step, and have you changed your oil separator
valve? Also if its one bank only it could be a catalytic converter problem on that side.
I would have that checked also.
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:39 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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So why do you think it may not be the vanos? I really hope it's not the vanos, but what steers you away from it?

Could broken timing chain guides on the driver side cause this issue?

The oil separator valve is new....installed by the previous owner.

I changed the valve cover gaskets and the air intake gaskets.

I also had a smoke test done and no leaks were found.

I checked all of the hoses and many of them appear to of been changed by the previous owner and the others were in really good condition visually and to the touch.

I also removed the pre-cat o2 sensor to see if the cat was plugged. No change in the way it ran with the o2 sensor out.

Last edited by Mrathell; 11-04-2012 at 05:40 PM.
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:43 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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I took it to two different Indy shops.

One said it was the vanos stuck in an open position.

The other didn't think it was the vanos. He believed it has something to do with the timing chain.....possibly the chain guides.

So with two different Indy shops giving me two different results......I'm totally lost.
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:45 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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That's why I asked if there is anytime you get no misfires. Your non misfire times are not long enough to completely eliminate the Vanos.
It would actually be good if it were the Vanos unit. After reconnecting you said after a day codes come back, that could be misleading in that
you were able to check the codes later that day but in fact they were there earlier. No CEL or anything? I'm still leaning on the Vanos, but its
not coming together as such if you know what I mean. We just have to verify that all other issues are not overlooked.
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  #11  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:47 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Oh one more thing I forgot.

When the engine is running and I disconnect all of the ignition coils on bank 2 driver side, there is no change in the way it runs. I would of assumed the engine would start to shake violently but it seems to not even notice they were disconnected.

I did take the ignition coils out and ground them to the side of the car to verify they were firing and they were.
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  #12  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:53 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Do you think the vanos is something a shadetree mechanic should even attempt?

Would this kit be the proper specialty tools I need to do the job?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Single-V...71645f&vxp=mtr

Also I haven't been able to find a vanos unit for a 4.4
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  #13  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:55 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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The chain guides have to completely fail and TRUST me you will know when they do. They snap vice wear out as long as they are oiled. If you've given it frequent timely oil changes the guides should be good. They are known to break on the M62, but only as often as you see neglected M62's. Both of those can be addressed in one visit however. It is a simpler job to do the guides. Buying a rebuilt head can eliminate both issues at once, but again timing has to be perfect. And your issue does seem to be related to timing based on all the things you've stated.
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  #14  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:57 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrathell View Post
Do you think the vanos is something a shadetree mechanic should even attempt?

Would this kit be the proper specialty tools I need to do the job?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-Single-V...71645f&vxp=mtr

Also I haven't been able to find a vanos unit for a 4.4
It's doable. I've seen the kit for the M62 in a red box. I think it's more of a repair rather than replace.
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  #15  
Old 11-04-2012, 05:59 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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So if we go the 'bad vanos' route, you would agree that installing a used head with a good vanos may be a good route to go?

Thank you so much for your time. Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to use your knowledge as much as possible while I have you
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  #16  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:01 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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Haha no problem. Before jumping there do you have the Vanos rattle?
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  #17  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:02 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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Not that it matters much, but it could help some. If your idle doesn't sound like a diesel then you may have nothing to worry about.
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:04 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boramkiv View Post
It's doable. I've seen the kit for the M62 in a red box. I think it's more of a repair rather than replace.
You think my vanos is more of a repair rather than a replace?

I didn't think the vanos on the 8 cylinders were repairable.

Regarding the vanos rattle...I'm not sure but at start up it doesnt sound pretty.
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  #19  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:29 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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I had to go back up and read the posts from top. Now the first thing I would start with is the Vanos solenoid because the actual Vanos unit on one side usually don't fail like that. It's fairly simple to just change the solenoid compared to the actual unit which rattles and that's what your Indy diagnosed the first time.
http://tis.spaghetticoder.org/s/view.pl?1/04/80/41
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  #20  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:32 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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So would it be a good idea to switch the solenoid from the passenger side to the driver side to see if the issue moves to the passenger side?
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  #21  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:33 PM
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That's a start.
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  #22  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:35 PM
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Now it would still run with a failed solenoid, so codes would have to be read, you knew that already though.
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  #23  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:36 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Cool! Thanks a million. I'll try that this weekend and let you know how it went.

This is going to be some work because the driver side vanos can only be removed by removing the water pump.
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  #24  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:38 PM
Mrathell Mrathell is offline
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Oops I was wrong, I don't have to remove the water pump......wheeeeew.
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  #25  
Old 11-04-2012, 06:38 PM
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boramkiv boramkiv is offline
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While you're in there change out that paper gasket on the water pump if you haven't done so already. Please keep the updates going as this is bound to fail on my X now that I've talked about it so much.

Good luck.
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