M Adaptive Suspension - How much of an impact?

Originally Posted by sean10mm

The "responsiveness in handling" does not change when you change driving modes unless you have adaptive m.

Without adaptive m the suspension doesn't change no matter what mode you select, so the ride and handling don't change when you change modes.

With adaptive m you can change the suspension behavior by changing modes, which is what determines the ride and handling.

OK, so without the adaptive M, if the switch from Sport to Comfort does not change the suspension or ride or the handling, then all it really changes is the acceleration?

Originally Posted by chasfh

Ah -- so, without an Adaptive M, the switching of Comfort to Sport changes just the responsiveness in handling and acceleration, but with the Adaptive M, it changes these plus the firmness of the ride? Do I have that straight?

Bingo. This I get.

Yes. Advanced computers use wires to communicate to the suspension. Watch this video.

BJ

Originally Posted by chasfh

OK, so without the adaptive M, if the switch from Sport to Comfort does not change the suspension or ride or the handling, then all it really changes is the acceleration?

Three things:

Acceleration is sick, much faster off the line.
Shifting is more aggressive at higher speeds.
Steering is heavier and more responsive.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Three things:

Acceleration is sick, much faster off the line.
Shifting is more aggressive at higher speeds.
Steering is heavier and more responsive.

BJ

Right on! This is what I'm looking for. Thanks!

Originally Posted by voip-ninja

Get over it. It's still a good car

If it were me, I'd have regrets too... he should see if he can switch it up rather than just "get over it"... it should either have the sport suspension or the ZDH... IMHO what a shame to pay all that for a nice 3 series and never really experience the sporty feel.

Just my $.02 of course

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Many debate the reason for the feature, I look at it this way: It's the "wife" button. If you get a Sport line and have a wife that finds it uncomfortable you can hit a button and soften the ride as if you'd bought a Luxury/Modern/No-line car. Similarly, if you get a Luxury line for the sake of your wife but want to morph it into a tighter ride when she's not around you can hit a button and firm up the ride as if you'd bought a Sport line car.

I think you are potentially getting a lot more than just that with this option. The video for which you provided a link finally confirms to me that the system is indeed set up the way I was hoping it was and that it takes full advantage of all sensor inputs and adapts (within the limits of CPU processing speed and damper response speed to inputs). So what you are getting is damping being adjusted in real time to the car's dynamics. For example, and I am just guessing here, stiffening up of the outer dampers in a turn, stiffening up of the front dampers under braking, etc. The soft and tight setting is almost just icing on the cake.

But what I would love to see is a direct comparison to the passive sport suspension. Does the adaptive suspension have some idiosyncrasies that would make the passive sport suspension preferable for certain types of driving? Or is it always better?

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

But what I would love to see is a direct comparison to the passive sport suspension. Does the adaptive suspension have some idiosyncrasies that would make the passive sport suspension preferable for certain types of driving? Or is it always better?

I'm unqualified to answer, but a few posters have had experience in both the passive Sport line suspension as well as the Adaptive M.

BJ

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I think you are potentially getting a lot more than just that with this option. The video for which you provided a link finally confirms to me that the system is indeed set up the way I was hoping it was and that it takes full advantage of all sensor inputs and adapts (within the limits of CPU processing speed and damper response speed to inputs). So what you are getting is damping being adjusted in real time to the car's dynamics. For example, and I am just guessing here, stiffening up of the outer dampers in a turn, stiffening up of the front dampers under braking, etc. The soft and tight setting is almost just icing on the cake.

But what I would love to see is a direct comparison to the passive sport suspension. Does the adaptive suspension have some idiosyncrasies that would make the passive sport suspension preferable for certain types of driving? Or is it always better?

I've commented in other threads of this nature what I felt the limits of the Adaptive M suspension are and I've refrained from commenting on any other threads anymore due to the backlash, but this legitimate great question requires a good answer.

When you test drive the DHP with variable steering + the adaptive M suspension (both part of the DHP), drive them 3 ways- daily driving optimally, track HPDE and normal daily driving.

1) Daily driving optimal= include driving technique combinations with partial throttle, partial braking, partial engine braking, mid-high RPM, late/trail braking, fast steering input simulating quick switch lane changes. Non-linear weight shifting required in heavy or mild traffic to sustain momentum or stop quickly with brakes + engine braking.
2) Track HPDE= include driving technique combinations with hard full throttle, hard full braking, high RPM, smooth & minimal steering input. Linear weight shifting to the extremes- keeps the chassis in the most optimal of driving conditions.
3) Normal daily driving= low-mid RPMs, smooth/progressive throttle & braking, short shifting to conserve gas and smooth out the RPMs. The least intrusive of all the driving styles, allowing the chassis and suspension the most time to settle.

Form your own opinion then report back here. Figure that when driving you have 3 main variables, the driver with his input on the car, the car's driving & handling dynamics to those inputs, plus the external driving environment variables- road, weather, other driver conditions.

IMHO, the DHP can be out driven beyond the 7/10ths limit and shows it's flaws most during scenario #1 above, due to the large combination of driving techniques thrown at it. It feels 1/2 second behind than where I would expect the suspension to settle and be neutral. You also feel the weight and length of the car during those driving sessions. On the non-DHP sport suspension, there was no adaptive algorithm that needed to catch up so it was a more linear response. Not up to par with what I normally like but that's what the BMW M performance suspension is for. The braking distance was also not good enough on both the 328i & 335i, better pads like the Porterfield R4S or M Sport versions can easily fix this, plus the BMW M performance brake upgrade for the 328i. Good luck on the test drive.

Originally Posted by av98

It feels 1/2 second behind than where I would expect the suspension to settle and be neutral. You also feel the weight and length of the car during those driving sessions.

Superb description. The suspension under these conditions feels as if it is trying to solve a problem it does not know how to address - and guesses until something works.

I wish BMW had gone with the vastly superior magnetic ride control found on General Motors cars (introduced ten years ago on a Cadillac) and now on Corvette, Ferrari, and Audi and others. It is much quicker, more planted, more responsive, linear.

Hopefully BMW can get up to speed.

News flash: DHP doesn't make your sedan a literal race car, film at 11.

Originally Posted by Elk

Superb description. The suspension under these conditions feels as if it is trying to solve a problem it does not know how to address - and guesses until something works.

I wish BMW had gone with the vastly superior magnetic ride control found on General Motors cars (introduced ten years ago on a Cadillac) and now on Corvette, Ferrari, and Audi and others. It is much quicker, more planted, more responsive, linear.

Hopefully BMW can get up to speed.

They probably won't... that leaves the door wide open for aftermarket magnetic shocks... already available on beemers.

Originally Posted by sean10mm

News flash: DHP doesn't make your sedan a literal race car, film at 11.

What I described is nowhere near a race car. It's actually a compromise which I have learned from using Koni adjustable dampers over the years; quickly responsive while being refined enough to smooth out all the bumps on the road to make you a better driver even above the 7/10ths driving limits. Do take into account that the suspension is only 1 component to this whole package refinement. You have to factor in chassis stiffness & design, bushings, tires, springs, brakes, etc...

Plus scenario #1 is what highly aggressive traffic drivers follow if they prefer to drive using all the allowable characteristics that their car provide.

Having driven or experienced (as a kid) all different types of my fair share of suspension combinations makes a difference to feel the differences; highly recommended to try them all, definitely helps with suspension tuning- dedicated race coil overs (Moton, Cusco, Toda, Ohlins, Bilstein), mid-level adj shocks/struts/coil overs (Koni yellows [my favorite benchmark for the middle ground], KYB AGX, Monroe Air, Bilstein PSS, KW V series, HKS, TRD), non-adj upgrade shocks/struts (Koni FSD,
KYB GR2, Bilstein HD & Sport), stock non EDC OEM shocks/struts (Sachs, Bilstein, Koni, TRD, Mugen, all the major car manufacturer brands), EDC shocks/struts (Nissan & Toyota [some of the first implementations of fully active EDC], Mercedes ABC, BMW DHP, GM MagnaRide).

Originally Posted by av98

What I described is nowhere near a race car. It's actually a compromise which I have learned from using Koni adjustable dampers over the years; quickly responsive while being refined enough to smooth out all the bumps on the road to make you a better driver even above the 7/10ths driving limits. Do take into account that the suspension is only 1 component to this whole package refinement. You have to factor in chassis stiffness & design, bushings, tires, springs, brakes, etc...

Plus scenario #1 is what highly aggressive traffic drivers follow if they prefer to drive using all the allowable characteristics that their car provide.

Having driven or experienced (as a kid) all different types of my fair share of suspension combinations makes a difference to feel the differences; highly recommended to try them all, definitely helps with suspension tuning- dedicated race coil overs (Moton, Cusco, Toda, Ohlins, Bilstein), mid-level adj shocks/struts/coil overs (Koni yellows [my favorite benchmark for the middle ground], KYB AGX, Monroe Air, Bilstein PSS, KW V series, HKS, TRD), non-adj upgrade shocks/struts (Koni FSD,
KYB GR2, Bilstein HD & Sport), stock non EDC OEM shocks/struts (Sachs, Bilstein, Koni, TRD, Mugen, all the major car manufacturer brands), EDC shocks/struts (Nissan & Toyota [some of the first implementations of fully active EDC], Mercedes ABC, BMW DHP, GM MagnaRide).

Your post kind of proves my point. Everything you've written in this post is esoteric trivia that 99% of BMW owners don't have a reason to care about. And the other 1% aren't going to use ANY factory suspension anyway.

We get it, you're a track day superstar, nobody cares.

Originally Posted by av98

What I described is nowhere near a race car.

. . .

Plus scenario #1 is what highly aggressive traffic drivers follow if they prefer to drive using all the allowable characteristics that their car provide.

Precisely. This scenario is where a BMW should shine. It is how the marketing claims it will pout perform the ordinary car.

bmw_or_audi's question precisely frames the issue, "Does the adaptive suspension have some idiosyncrasies that would make the passive sport suspension preferable for certain types of driving? Or is it always better?" av98's response is excellent and directly on point.

The BMW adaptive suspension address scenario #3 (routine driving) very well. However, it falls down on #1, which instead should be its sweet spot.

#1 is the world of the aggressive street driver. Here, BMW's passive system outshines BMW's adaptive systems. Magnetic systems, such as on the ATS, blow away both BMW's passive and adaptive systems.

Summary, go with the F30 passive system and tweak it to taste if you want the best handling street F30.

(I am unaware of magnetic systems as aftermarket for BMW as referenced above. The complexity of such a retrofit boggles.)

LOL

FWIW, I've done the whole thing, from track newbie to licensed racer. Give me an OEM setup for my DD. I'm over it already.

Originally Posted by sean10mm

Everything you've written in this post is esoteric trivia that 99% of BMW owners don't have a reason to care about.

Only if 99% have no interest whatsoever in choosing the best handling option between for aggressive street driving.

It is my impression that more than 1% here is greatly interested in obtaining the best handling for their street-driven F30.

(The 1% ""comfort uber alles" is loudly represented by BJ. You may also be in his camp - nothing wrong with this.)

Originally Posted by sean10mm

Your post kind of proves my point. Everything you've written in this post is esoteric trivia that 99% of BMW owners don't have a reason to care about. And the other 1% aren't going to use ANY factory suspension anyway.

We get it, you're a track day superstar, nobody cares.

Never implied that, my only point is to objectively point out the DHP has limits and what to look for in order to form your own opinion when testing it.

If you don't get it or care to try and comprehend let the people who asked the more advanced question answer/reply. All your adding are useless and fruitless comments.

Originally Posted by Elk

It is my impression that more than 1% here is greatly interested in obtaining the best handling for their street-driven F30.

Sure, it's called an aftermarket suspension. Or presumably the M Performance suspension they're going to offer. I don't know the exact % of uptake on those but it's pretty small, especially if you exclude people just buying suspension parts for a cosmetic drop.

This is a huge argument over nothing. It's not even wrong, it's an attack on something for not doing what it wasn't made to do. If you only care about handling you get the sport suspension. If you want to switch between different stiffness you get the adaptive m. If you just like the base suspension you get a car with that. And if you want to be a street racing hero or actually legitimately race you're going to inevitably go to some kind of aftermarket setup. If the adaptive m was sold as XTREME TRACK SETUP you'd have a complaint, but otherwise it's just bitching about apples not being oranges and posing over who is the "real" BMW fan.

Originally Posted by Elk

(The 1% ""comfort uber alles" is loudly represented by BJ. You may also be in his camp - nothing wrong with this.)

I wouldn't say it's all about comfort, the DHP is pretty good below the 7/10ths limit and when using scenario #2 & 3 when set to the Sport + Sport modes. However, it struggles most when you add more variables for the algorithm to handle ala scenario #1.

And to Sean, the DHP is more than adequate for all driving situations below the 7/10ths limit and is very refined. This alone imho negates the need to upgrade if you want a DD that's sporty enough for 85% of all driving scenarios.

Btw, I liked how at least BJ was humble enough to admit he wasn't qualified to comment instead of feel like objective opinions were an attack on the DHP.

Well and clearly stated, av98.

Sean, like av98, I also am not attacking DHP. Rather, I opine it is not the best option for the aggressive street driver - the fixed sport suspension is. We are not discussing what is best for the track, but the best BMW option for maximum handling on the street.

Originally Posted by sean10mm

If you only care about handling you get the sport suspension. If you want to switch between different stiffness you get the adaptive

For all your fussing and noise, it turns out you agree with both av98 and me. Irony, anyone?

Thanks for all the great comments. I looked up some info on MagneRide and it does seem to have at least a couple of advantages. It has no valve system to control damping, and therefore no associated response delay and wear. It modifies the viscosity of the fluid directly and apparently much faster than a mechanical valve system. But other than that it works in a similar way as far as having sensors, a CPU, and a computed response sent to the actuators.

A middle ground solution could be a passive system but with 2 or 3 damping settings.

IMHO, if I were to get the AWD then I'd get the Adaptive because that's the only way to get the Sport Suspension. I bought the passive because I'm the only one driving the car and I would always be in Sports Mode anyway. And besides coming from an E46 M3 with 19" wheels, the F30 Sport Suspension already feels like it's in Comfort Mode.

Public roads vary widely as to surface condition which is what makes adaptive suspension attractive for street driving. A passive performance suspension, like the sport suspension on the E9x, will perform very well on relatively smooth surfaces such as a race track or on a smooth road. The problem is that in the real world you are going to run into less than ideal conditions and that is where a passive sport suspension will show limitations. On bumpy surfaces it will have trouble keeping the tires in contact with the road surface. Once the bumps have upset the balance of the car the passive suspension is no longer a good handling suspension so while I accept that in some cases the passive sport suspension will outhandle the adaptive suspenion IMO unless you have the luxury (which I don't) of driving exclusively on pristine surfaces the adapative suspension will be a better choice.

I have not driven an F30 in any form but I have a 335i (E93) with sport suspension (on which I have replaced the RFTs and installed Koni FSDs) and a 750Li. The 7 has an adjustable suspension and it is very effective and the diffenence between sport and comfort in very obvious. Of course the 7 is a high performance luxury car as opposed to a luxurious high performance car. When I put the 7 into Sport Plus the suspension tightens up, the car shifts more agressively and I swear to God it gets 500 pounds lighter and 18" shorter. In sport plus it is hard to believe you are driving a car that is as big and as heavy as it actually is.

I have driven Jaguar XKR-S and Cadillac CTS-V and my impression is that as good as the adjustable suspenion in the 7 is BMWs technology is not as good as Jaguars or Cadillacs. The Jag suspension is very good and the Cadillac magnetic shocks are in a class by themselves.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

. . . BMWs technology is not as good as Jaguars or Cadillacs. The Jag suspension is very good and the Cadillac magnetic shocks are in a class by themselves.

The Cadillac (Corvette) magnetic suspension is indeed incredible. Amazing technology.

Originally Posted by Elk

The Cadillac (Corvette) magnetic suspension is indeed incredible. Amazing technology.

The first time I drove a C5 with the MagneRide I was pretty impressed. I can't even fathom how much it's improved over the years.

I believe the quick response is due to having the metalic particles in the fluid within the shock, then they use a magnet to manipulate the valving and viscosity.

This link should give a good overview of the different types of active suspensions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_suspension