Motortrend video slamming 2013 Alpina B7 vs Audi S8

Originally Posted by chrischeung

How did they make the car drive smaller than it is? I don't think they can do that by pushing up the horsepower. Perhaps the steering is more sensitive? Crisper turn in? The suspension more reactive? If size is the same, that's what I would expect is the difference. They already mentioned the throttle response.

I also am now wondering if Audi is severly underquoting power. Which is fine, as long as production cars are delivered that way. So if someone can provide some insight from any personal test drives comparing the two.

Sure, different calibration on the steering ECU plus aggressive alignment at expense of tire then we are all good to go! Also, I think S8 comes with non RFT which is a plus.

It would be nice the production car come with this flash, if not just need to call ABT for it

I should have my 2013 B7 in two weeks (currently on the ship headed to NJ). I will report in on how it drives vs my last three S8's. The B7 will be SWB AWD in Alpina Blue with ivory/black interior. Can't wait. I suspect the S8 will drive/handle better but the B7 is million times better looking.

Definitely stands out much more as well. I've lived in both MIA and LA which are cities loaded with luxury cars, and have never seen more than a couple of Alpinas.

Originally Posted by ayu910

Sure, different calibration on the steering ECU plus aggressive alignment at expense of tire then we are all good to go!

Did you get that from an Audi forum? My BMWs have always worn the inner part of the tires faster due to the camber I expect. So I wouldn't say it's specific to Audi to do that - it just makes sense from a response perspective.

Sat in the S8 and honestly it is one of the finest interiors I have ever seen - almost on par with Bentley. I think it is a beautiful car in/out and I would love to own one. I did test drive the s6. What a great car as well.

Originally Posted by ory

Sat in the S8 and honestly it is one of the finest interiors I have ever seen - almost on par with Bentley. I think it is a beautiful car in/out and I would love to own one. I did test drive the s6. What a great car as well.

But it's such a ugly car, the S6 is even worst. Minus the fancy LED lights and I swear you would think both cars came out 10 years ago.

I might be bias because I have the S5 but I do like the A5/S5/RS5and the R8 in terms of exterior styling, the rest of the Audi's are way too boring.

I agree that the fun factor makes RWD a better choice. However, from a pure drag race perspective, AWD is just better performance. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, however, when Motor Trend rolls out an obvious Audi cheater car and tests it against a rwd B7 (for which we know to be slower than xdrive)...something's not right.

The highest performance Porsche sold in the US right now now is the 911 Turbo S which utilizes AWD 60/40 rear wheel bias. (Only available in AWD).

As far as the weight argument, the weight spec difference in the F01 is an additional 35 kg for xDrive which is why the acceleration numbers are better for the xDrive.

Sure, RWD is more fun but if you want pure acceleration performance from a standstill, AWD is where it's at.

Originally Posted by chrischeung

Let me comment as someone who has wasted productive hours mulling the issue. I would argue that BMW don't make their sportiest cars, like the M3 and M5 cars in AWD.

Most people agree that AWD is heavier and offers less steering feel, turn in, generally speaking. What is often in debate is real world performance (or even track performance), since an AWD car can usually be driven faster by the untrained, but some argue in the hands of a professional, RWD can be faster. Regardless of speed, the majority of testers say that RWD cars offer more enjoyment since they tend to have better feedback. In slippery or adverse conditions, AWD is the clear winner.

Complicating the matter is that there is rarely 2 cars that are the same that are identical other than being AWD or RWD - usually there is something different in the engine, suspension, ride height etc. For example, the Porsche 911 Turbo does come in RWD, but as the GT2, which is a performance special and only indirectly comparable to the AWD Turbo.

All excellent points by the way...especially the wasting time one. I wish I was disciplined to the point where this was uninteresting!

Originally Posted by chrischeung

Did you get that from an Audi forum? My BMWs have always worn the inner part of the tires faster due to the camber I expect. So I wouldn't say it's specific to Audi to do that - it just makes sense from a response perspective.

Just speaking in general. Factory BMW setting does spec the front camber little bit aggressively (like -1~1.5) which result in more inner tire wear. Possibility both front and back camber on the S8 are setup to even more aggressive (up to -3.5/-2.5 maybe?) with toe-out at the front for a stay flat fully engaged to the ground effect.

The car feels smaller due to the sport differential. In a turn it puts more power to the outside wheels. They turn faster, and rotate the car. Camber is not excessive in order to minimize tire wear.

Doesn't the B7 have a limited slip diff as well? I admit to not knowing if so. One detraction of the B7 is the weight - to make it produce the power it does, they beefed up a lot of the components, added coolers etc. Likely to the detriment of response. So if Audi didn't do similarly, or less so, that may make the car more fragile in the long term, to the benefit of performance. Nothing to back that up - just a thought.

The B7 does not have a limited slip diff. It adds weight, but is likely worth the extra pounds. The Audi is 4610lbs due to 100% aluminum chassis/frame. If it were built on a steel based system, it would be over 5000lbs. Audi is thinking of discontinuing the aluminum system in the next generation. Maybe due to costs?

Originally Posted by f01driver

But it's such a ugly car, the S6 is even worst. Minus the fancy LED lights and I swear you would think both cars came out 10 years ago.

I might be bias because I have the S5 but I do like the A5/S5/RS5and the R8 in terms of exterior styling, the rest of the Audi's are way too boring.

Couldn't agree more!

I looked at Audi A8's before picking the BMW and I walked away for a couple of reasons. One, the twin turbo V8 was not available yet, only the V6 (a no-go for me) and second, the exterior styling.
Especially in silver, this thing is one big plain box with a monstrosity of a grill.

For me, the Audi 5 series or R8 are the only ones worth looking at.

Originally Posted by chrischeung

Doesn't the B7 have a limited slip diff as well? I admit to not knowing if so. One detraction So if Audi didn't do similarly, or less so, that may make the car more fragile in the long term, to the benefit of performance. Nothing to back that up - just a thought.

Couldn't agree more, Audi is behind on market share so they have to be aggressive and do everything it takes. Other forum members are already buzzing on this new 4.0TT engine from Audi, especially detuned version on S6/S7 and by the example of this S8 those detuned car should able to reach 600HP just by simple ECU tune. Perfect for short term ownership like a 36 mo lease, sure don't want to be the last one holding the bag.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/..******s/1672995/

Speaking of market share.....(exerps from todays news)
Audi continued to be one of the fastest-growing premium brands in the U.S.
It was a record October for the brand and marked 22 months of sales gains in the U.S.
Sales of A8 flagship were up 54.7% it said, driven in part by the introduction of the S8 high-performance version.
The redone A6 was up 36.6% for the month and is up 96.8% year-to-date.

So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?

Originally Posted by L0U

[URL="http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2012/11/01/audi-october-sales/1672995/"]So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?

It's probably because they are building better cars. And the fact they are copying Benz and BMW round logos with their 4 rings logo (do you think they'd sell as many with 4 squares or triangles?) certainly does its part.

Originally Posted by L0U

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/..******s/1672995/

Speaking of market share.....(exerps from todays news)
Audi continued to be one of the fastest-growing premium brands in the U.S.
It was a record October for the brand and marked 22 months of sales gains in the U.S.
Sales of A8 flagship were up 54.7% it said, driven in part by the introduction of the S8 high-performance version.
The redone A6 was up 36.6% for the month and is up 96.8% year-to-date.

So it appears the struggling with market share is working to make things better. How are the 750s selling vs. last year?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/65546...-october-2012/
on the 7s major drop in Oct YTY but so far YTD is about the same, two more months so we will see. I know people are holding off b/c of new S class, maybe some alreay jump ship over to Audi.

the good news is that the residuals have climbed significantly, perhaps as an attempt to bring sales back. I am getting 60% vs Audi at 45%. That completely makes up for the price difference between the B7 and S8.

With a 60% residual for B7 maybe I lease trade my 750li

Originally Posted by filmoreslim

Matte paint is any paint minus clear coat...any color you like...my Dingolfing tour guide and I were having a chuckle that people pay extra for that.

This gets tossed around from time to time but just for the record, it's incorrect. The matte finishes do have a clear coat protecting the color base coat. It just happens to be a matte- rather than gloss-finish clear.

Originally Posted by Zeichen311

This gets tossed around from time to time but just for the record, it's incorrect. The matte finishes do have a clear coat protecting the color base coat. It just happens to be a matte- rather than gloss-finish clear.

That's not what I physically saw and was told at the Dingolfing plant...I believe I may have incorrectly stated that frozen paint is just the regular paint-when actually you can get any color paint in a frozen color in a a 5, 6, or 7 or M car...however, in the plant, the car does not go through the clear coat process. The paint is actually different, they may add some kind of clear element in the base paint shop, but the car does not physically get the clear coat treatment on the line. This was a major topic of discussion-the clear coat on an F02 actually weighs something like 4 kg.

http://www.youtube.com/v/khYHWhku-0E?

Originally Posted by filmoreslim

That's not what I physically saw and was told at the Dingolfing plant...I believe I may have incorrectly stated that frozen paint is just the regular paint-when actually you can get any color paint in a frozen color in a a 5, 6, or 7 or M car...however, in the plant, the car does not go through the clear coat process. The paint is actually different, they may add some kind of clear element in the base paint shop, but the car does not physically get the clear coat treatment on the line. This was a major topic of discussion-the clear coat on an F02 actually weighs something like 4 kg.

http://www.youtube.com/v/khYHWhku-0E?

Refer to above post

The BMW matte paint does have a clear coat, it's just less shiny to put it simply. You just cannot buff or wax the car, as those will flatten the clear coat, making it more shiny, which defeats the purpose of the matte finish.

After watching that video, I'd seriously consider getting a matte car. I have a CR Spotless water system, and that would be pretty easy to keep clean.

Originally Posted by ChrisF02

Refer to above post

The BMW matte paint does have a clear coat, it's just less shiny to put it simply. You just cannot buff or wax the car, as those will flatten the clear coat, making it more shiny, which defeats the purpose of the matte finish.

After watching that video, I'd seriously consider getting a matte car. I have a CR Spotless water system, and that would be pretty easy to keep clean.

I agree on how great the paint looks. However, for me, it is impractical to think that I'd be able to immediately remove every bug, bird drop, bit of road tar, or anything else corrosive. Make no mistake about it, there may be some level of "clear" element to the paint, but it hardly serves as a protective coat. The paint is super fragile. It looks great, though.

Audi ranked almost last on ConsumerReports and JDPower dependability list. The S8 looks like it has down syndrome to be honest. Idc how fast it is, I would go Alpina not only cause I am a BMW enthusiast but I've owned and been around Audi and hate their way of everything. I bet you those numbers are inflated and BS. I would still put my money on that B7. Your telling me the S8 is as fast as a Z06? Don't think so.

somehow I have a "feeling" that consumers reports would be thrown aside if bmw ranked last.......come on man...you'd buy the bimmer anyway?

Have some self respect and stop grasping at straws. Sometimes its ok to for the bad guys to be better. I accept ones opinion on feel/looks ect....but the rest is denial.