Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)

E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-26-2014, 05:51 PM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
N52 DISA Repair & Upgrade kit.

Let me introduce myself, I'm Gary from German Auto Solutions. If have much knowledge of the E46 and E39 platforms then you may already be familiar.

I have been approached about making a DISA valve repair and upgrade kit for the N52 engines similar to the very popular kit we make for the M54 engines. After examining a disassembled N52 DISA I can tell you that BMW learned nothing from rash of failures seen on the M54 DISA's. The design seems even less robust than the failure prone M54 versions. I think it's just a matter of time before we start seeing a large number of failures. The problem with making a kit for N52 DISA's is that it is not a user serviceable part & there are more parts to manufacture than the M54 version.

My question is, since this is a not a user serviceable part, what percentage of you would consider sending your DISA valves out for the installation of a repair and upgrade kit as opposed to just replacing your DISA with another stock unit? There are two DISA valves on the N52 intake manifold and they each cost more than $300.00 to replace (part cost only).

Our kit would include thefollowing:
  • CNC removal of back cover to open up unit for upgrade and repair.
  • New CNC machined aluminum flapper valve that is stress relieved and anodized.
  • New CNC machined and anodized aluminum drive dog.
  • New CNC machined titanium pivot sharft.
  • New CNC machined brass drive gear.
  • New Teflon support bearing.
  • Cleaned inspected and tested drive motor and electronics.
The target cost is $150.00 per DISA with 24 hour week day turn around. This would mean 3-6 days of vehicle down time including shipping depending on when you are located with respect to Michigan.

This post is mainly to start a dialog to determine whether we what is invest in a dedicated CNC machine to remove the back covers plus custom fixturing , etc. If very few people feel 1/2 the cost of new DISA's plus having some vehicle down time is worth it I want to know before we make a major investment.
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 08-27-2014, 05:13 AM
houstonhulk houstonhulk is offline
Registered User
Location: Houston
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 73
Mein Auto: 2007 530i
Sent you an email Gary.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-27-2014, 06:42 AM
boramkiv's Avatar
boramkiv boramkiv is offline
Propellers Up Front
Location: Chesapeake, VA
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,981
Mein Auto: Some Bavarian car outside
Ha!
I just changed my two out a month ago. You are definitely correct, BMW seemed to have purpose built them this way.
I'll think about this for a bit.
Let the E90 guys know as there are many more of those cars floating around with the N52 engine.
And yes, GAS products are always amazing.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-27-2014, 08:59 AM
banglenot's Avatar
banglenot banglenot is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Ft. Lauderdale and Connecticut
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,662
Mein Auto: 2007 530
Gary,

1. Great idea, with the number of N52's out there from its seven year run on the the 3, 5 and Z models, among others. Not sure if the same part applies to the N53.

2. What's the tradeoffs for a "core charge" business model, allowing the buyer to better schedule the repair, rather than downtime for shipping?

3. Do you have an estimate on failure time (miles or years), perhaps from your experience with the M54? Do you think failure % will be similar to the M54? Are the symptoms the same as your site discusses for the M54?

A tech question: INPA allows test cycling of the DISA valve. Indication is opening to 0%, 40% (I think) and 100%. But, is this just testing the actuator position, and not the actual flap position, if its the connection to the flap that's broken/worn? In other words, does the DISA test good even while it's bad?

Thanks.
__________________

2007 530I
2003 325XI (gone)
2004 530I (gone)
2001 530I (gone)

BMW CCA Member 10+ Years

Last edited by banglenot; 08-27-2014 at 09:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-27-2014, 09:19 AM
txag_530i's Avatar
txag_530i txag_530i is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Houston, TX
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 890
Mein Auto: 2006 530i
I'd rather see a core program where I buy the parts, install them, and send you back the old parts for a refund. I wouldn't be able to be without a car for a week.

As a side note, I noticed that the DISA valve on the outside of the intake manifold was broken while I was changing out the engine starter. I dodged a bullet I think because nothing was sucked into the engine. I simply removed the valve and rod and reassembled the part back in the car. I now have a wide open valve that cannot fail. To date I've noticed no drastic change in engine performance and no CEL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Gary,

A tech question: INPA allows test cycling of the DISA valve. Indication is opening to 0%, 40% (I think) and 100%. But, is this just testing the actuator position, and not the actual flap position, if its the connection to the flap that's broken/worn? In other words, does the DISA test good even while it's bad?

Thanks.
I also don't understand how INPA can read the valve's position since the only connection to the controller has two wires and originates from a power distribution block.

Last edited by txag_530i; 08-27-2014 at 09:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-27-2014, 10:44 AM
pcy pcy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Boston
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,059
Mein Auto: '06 530i, '07 C280, ML320
Quote:
Originally Posted by txag_530i View Post
I'd rather see a core program where I buy the parts, install them, and send you back the old parts for a refund. I wouldn't be able to be without a car for a week.
...
+1 on the core program, similar to other car parts (such as alternators, starters, etc.)
I replaced both DISA valves on my car with N52 engine. Flap on the outer DISA is broken. There was no visible damage to the inner DISA. However, I was getting an error for the inner DISA. So, I replaced both.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-27-2014, 11:27 AM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcy View Post
+1 on the core program, similar to other car parts (such as alternators, starters, etc.)
I replaced both DISA valves on my car with N52 engine. Flap on the outer DISA is broken. There was no visible damage to the inner DISA. However, I was getting an error for the inner DISA. So, I replaced both.
I have thought about a core program, but based on the M54 DISA's there has been a wide disparity in the overall condition of the silicone rubber around the flapper valve based on mileage, etc. I don't want to get into a situation where we are sent a low mileage core in very good condition and have to send back a rebuilt unit with some torn rubber around the framework. Unless we have a minimum condition set for a core swap I'm afraid we could end up with unhappy customers who feel the DISA they received back was not in as good of shape as the one they sent in. That being said it looks like BMW have used a different type of silicone on the N52 units that may not break down like the M54 units. I have a used sample that supposedly came from a car with 160K miles on it and the rubber still looks good.
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-27-2014, 11:38 AM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
Quote:
A tech question: INPA allows test cycling of the DISA valve. Indication is opening to 0%, 40% (I think) and 100%. But, is this just testing the actuator position, and not the actual flap position, if its the connection to the flap that's broken/worn? In other words, does the DISA test good even while it's bad?
This is interesting. I don't have an N52 based car here to test but the DISA mechanism and electronics do not have a positional feedback system. I can't see how the DME would know the position of the flapper directly. There is just a simple drive circuit running a standard brush type electric motor without any sensors or switches to provide any feedback in respect to flapper or motor position.

If the test is only for fully open or closed, then the diagnostic software could use changes from other engine based sensors to verify if the valve is opening and closing. I just don't know how it could command a partially open position based on the design.
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-13-2014, 05:30 PM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
Some Minor Progress Here

I don't what to give the impression that these repair kits will be available any time soon, I'm just letting you know that there has been some progress.

I have recorded CMM data on some of the key DISA parts so that I can start work on the CAD models.

I have also puchased a deck top CNC unit that will be dedicated to machining the main DISA housing to separate the cover. I will post pictures once it's set up and running.

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0859_058.jpg
Views:	179
Size:	82.4 KB
ID:	481178

Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0861_059.jpg
Views:	260
Size:	123.2 KB
ID:	481179

Thanks,

Gary

German Auto Soluitions
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-13-2014, 06:39 PM
Obioban Obioban is offline
Registered User
Location: malvern
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9
Mein Auto: M3
I have been holding off on doing 3 stage DISA on my wife's 328iT because I heard you were coming out with this! I will absolutely do it when you release this.

I also have a friend with an n52 e60 that I know will be getting this when you offer it.
__________________

Current Cars: 2005 IR/IR M3, 2003 TiAg M5, 1995 S50 B32 GT3 RS Green M3 Race Car _____Former Cars: 2004 TiAg/IR M3, 1996 TV/black M3, 1995 AW M3 shell

Last edited by Obioban; 12-13-2014 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-13-2014, 07:42 PM
Caesonia Caesonia is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Va
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 921
Mein Auto: 2010 528i
Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Gary,

1. Great idea, with the number of N52's out there from its seven year run on the the 3, 5 and Z models, among others. Not sure if the same part applies to the N53.

2. What's the tradeoffs for a "core charge" business model, allowing the buyer to better schedule the repair, rather than downtime for shipping?

3. Do you have an estimate on failure time (miles or years), perhaps from your experience with the M54? Do you think failure % will be similar to the M54? Are the symptoms the same as your site discusses for the M54?

A tech question: INPA allows test cycling of the DISA valve. Indication is opening to 0%, 40% (I think) and 100%. But, is this just testing the actuator position, and not the actual flap position, if its the connection to the flap that's broken/worn? In other words, does the DISA test good even while it's bad?

Thanks.

What is it and should I consider replacing this as a normal course at a certain number of miles?
__________________
Liker is qwiker n so are Beemers.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-15-2014, 09:40 AM
DUI Elite DUI Elite is offline
Bavarian enthusiast
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 39
Mein Auto: E83 X3, F25 X3, E90 3
I am also holding off on installing my manifold until this kit comes out. Seems logical to wait to do it right the first time rather than worry about impending failure (even though my DISA units are brand new)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-16-2014, 06:05 AM
banglenot's Avatar
banglenot banglenot is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Ft. Lauderdale and Connecticut
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,662
Mein Auto: 2007 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesonia View Post
What is it and should I consider replacing this as a normal course at a certain number of miles?
No. If the part fails you'll lose some low end torque and it'll rattle. So you'll get warning and know to fix it.

Gary, in the M54 I recall there was some risk of losing a piece of the previous DISA into the engine, but that's not an issue in the failure of the N52 DISA, correct? Thanks.
__________________

2007 530I
2003 325XI (gone)
2004 530I (gone)
2001 530I (gone)

BMW CCA Member 10+ Years

Last edited by banglenot; 12-16-2014 at 06:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-16-2014, 06:31 PM
toga94m toga94m is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Upstate NY
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 202
Mein Auto: 2006 530xiT
Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
No. If the part fails you'll lose some low end torque and it'll rattle. So you'll get warning and know to fix it.

Gary, in the M54 I recall there was some risk of losing a piece of the previous DISA into the engine, but that's not an issue in the failure of the N52 DISA, correct? Thanks.
All confirmed in my experience. I thought the engine was knocking, but knew that was pretty unlikely. I continued driving it for another 4-5 months until I could look into it further. The valve paddle itself was no longer fixed to the actuator, but it didn't seem to be in any danger of losing pieces into the engine. I've still got the old one (replaced it myself) which I took apart to study.
__________________
2006 530xiT 6MT - 135k miles - 3rd owner - sport & cold packages
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-16-2014, 09:45 PM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
No. If the part fails you'll lose some low end torque and it'll rattle. So you'll get warning and know to fix it.

Gary, in the M54 I recall there was some risk of losing a piece of the previous DISA into the engine, but that's not an issue in the failure of the N52 DISA, correct? Thanks.
The N52 DISA doesn't have the steel pin that can come loose but it is my understanding that pieces of the flapper valve have broken loose and ended up going through the engine.
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-28-2014, 07:13 PM
big_cg big_cg is offline
Registered User
Location: IA
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 31
Mein Auto: 335i
If anyone needs a damaged outer N52 DISA- the one above the throttle body, I have an extra. Also have the inner DISA as well. Could be good for when GAS is ready, to eliminate your downtime.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...9#post17099659

PM me if interested
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-24-2016, 10:20 PM
gary@germanautosolutions's Avatar
gary@germanautosolutions gary@germanautosolutions is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 364
Mein Auto: 528-530 Hybrid, Duc. 748
For anyone still interested, I'm about to get started on this project if there is still a demand for it.

I've been too busy in the last year to keep up on the n52 DISA issues so I have a few questions for anyone willing to respond:
  • Does this seem to be a consistent failure like it is in the M54 engines?
  • Since the N54 turbo motors don't have the DISA what percentage of E60's do you think have the N52 compared to the N54?
  • What is the failure rate of the smaller unit compared to the larger one?
  • Are people replacing both units when one fails, or just the failed unit?
  • If you replace both units is this still considered a do able DIY for the average BMW owner that maintains their own car.

I'm not sure that I want to get into the core exchange business, so if I go ahead with this I'm thinking of offering the upgrade two ways:
  1. Brand new OEM DISA's with the upgrade parts already installed. Like our current M54 Gold valve.
  2. A user installable kit that will require the user to separate the two haves of the housing and epoxy the housing back together after the upgrade.

Since the Gold Valve version will be the easiest for most people, do you thing most owners be willing to pay an extra $75-$100 over current online OEM DISA valve pricing for a unit that won't fail again?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Gary

German Auto Solutions
__________________

"I'm a little rascal on my Little Rascal"
- unknown
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-25-2016, 08:29 AM
fdriller9 fdriller9 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: NJ/Philly
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 6,656
Mein Auto: '06 AW 330xi
Why are you opening the units?

The failures I have seen only affect the flap, not the gearing/motor/internals.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...038&highlight=

EDIT: Looking back at my photos, I do see why the unit has to be open. The shaft cannot be removed unless the case is opened up.
__________________

| LCI Msport Conversion | Exotic Tuning Front Lip | H&R Coilovers | M3 Subframe Bushings | Custom Polyurethane Shore A90 Tension Strut Bushings | E93 M3 23.6mm Rear Sway Bar | UUC Front Sway Bar | Custom Heim Joint Rear Control Arms | Apex ARC-8 | Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec | Modified Dinan Cold Air Intake | aFe Oiled Drop-in Filter | Custom Hand-Made LED Angel Eyes | Alpine MRP-M500 | Custom LED Reverse Lights | OEM Blacklines | BMW Performance Trunk Spoiler |

Last edited by fdriller9; 01-25-2016 at 08:41 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-25-2016, 01:58 PM
banglenot's Avatar
banglenot banglenot is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Ft. Lauderdale and Connecticut
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,662
Mein Auto: 2007 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary@germanautosolutions View Post
snip

Since the Gold Valve version will be the easiest for most people, do you thing most owners be willing to pay an extra $75-$100 over current online OEM DISA valve pricing for a unit that won't fail again?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Gary

German Auto Solutions
Gary,

It's time/mileage between probable failures that makes the decision.

If I get 75K out of the original, and can assume a total of 150K with a replacement OEM, then I probably wouldn't spend the money as I won't have my car that many years.

So, any idea what the failure rate is with OEM's? If it's, say, 50K I'd consider it.
__________________

2007 530I
2003 325XI (gone)
2004 530I (gone)
2001 530I (gone)

BMW CCA Member 10+ Years
Reply With Quote
Reply

See More Related BMW Stories

Tags
nd upgrade


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2015 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms