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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #101  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:09 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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Im gonna stick my neck out here, but if you look at the data*, and not the outliers of the subset (aka the people who decided not to pay msrp or close to it), you come out behind a comparable gasoline version in a comparison of overall ownership costs*2 . However if you look at the outliers of the subset (people who negotiated the price of their vehicle, and pretty much a a great deal) then, in a comparison of overall ownership costs, the diesel owners come ahead of their gasoline counterparts.

just my pretty penny worth of thoughts!

* data such as price paid, cost to maintain=overall ownership costs
*2= financed cars, not lease
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  #102  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:15 PM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezypoof View Post
Well I have to comment on this, because it's data vs. bimmerfest anectodes. The data clearly shows diesel is $.30 more than premium. State by state varies, but just looking at big ones it's still a significant gap. CA is $0.25; NY is $0.15; TX is $0.35... NY looks pretty good actually. The $0.30 we pay more here in michigan is, according to the data, exactly average.

Diesel engines cost more to build, and diesel fuel costs more than gasoline (for various bad reasons). These are facts that can't (lol, I know better) be argued. Subsidies can help the first one, the 2nd is bigger and unlikely to change.
I don't go by statewide rankings. That's like trying to say how much a sandwich costs in ny, it goes from $2 to $200+. A few stations near me on Long Island have diesel cheaper than premium. That's what I go by because I try and get a reasonable price on gas. Some stations have prices on gas 30-40 cents higher than others.
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  #103  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:15 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezypoof View Post
Well I have to comment on this, because it's data vs. bimmerfest anectodes. The data clearly shows diesel is $.30 more than premium. State by state varies, but just looking at big ones it's still a significant gap. CA is $0.25; NY is $0.15; TX is $0.35... NY looks pretty good actually. The $0.30 we pay more here in michigan is, according to the data, exactly average.

Diesel engines cost more to build, and diesel fuel costs more than gasoline (for various bad reasons). These are facts that can't (lol, I know better) be argued. Subsidies can help the first one, the 2nd is bigger and unlikely to change.
Your are using November data, which reflects a the seasonal variation in diesel versus gas. Pull the same data for May and the price differential will be different.

Below is a link that looks at prices over time: National monthly and annual averages.

Weekly Retail Gasoline and Diesel Prices
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  #104  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:22 PM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
From what I've read of your arguments they are well reasoned, but this post brings into question the accuracy of this particular data. My comments are in reference to Texas, where I lived most of my life, until my recent move. I can tell you from years of direct observation of fuel prices in Texas that diesel fuel is rarely 35 cents/gal. higher or lower than premium. It is usually quite close to the same price per gallon. Usually within 10 cents higher or lower and RARELY more than 20 cents different, whether up or down. Whoever came up with an average difference of 35 centin Texas was not looking at real world fuel prices.

There is one way I can see that data holding up. That is if you compare to premium unleaded with 91 octane. But, in Texas that represents a minuscule segment of the premium fuel market. In Texas well over 95% of premium fuel available is 93 octane. (Excepting the high plains of Texas where the elevation is over 3,000 feet and virtually all premium fuel is 90 octane.)
It's $.30 to $0.40 higher in Houston now.
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  #105  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:12 PM
wildvlad wildvlad is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
It's $.30 to $0.40 higher in Houston now.
Even $0.30 out of $4 will give you whopping 7.5% vs 40% by going from 25MPG to 35MPG.

But yes, the deal with diesel is this:

There ARE many gas stations where there diesel is either not sold or spread is too high.

However, most of those who drive on diesel do not fill up there. They somehow manage to find gas stations with more reasonable prices, which indeed reduces flexibility of filling up on every corner (not a problem on freeways though, as all truck stops have reasonable pricing for diesel)
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  #106  
Old 11-28-2012, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezypoof View Post
I don't think you listened, or want to hear, my argument. You're drawing the circle around operating costs. If you draw the circle around total cost of ownership, which is the point I'm making, diesel does not payoff for ~3-4yrs. We see the same failed logic here in lease threads when people brag about low monthly payments while choosing to ignore the chunk of cash they had to pay up front.
If you're paying large sums of cash up front on a lease, you have no idea what you're doing.

Quote:
Even in the fantasy land where diesel is the same price as mid-grade 91 gasoline the argument holds because you paid $2.5k to $3k more for the car. It takes a lot of gallons of fuel to recover that money.
91 isn't mid-grade. Looks like I live in a fantasy land. 91 and diesel cost about the same. Not to mention, I'll more than make up that $2.5k-3k on resale.
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  #107  
Old 11-28-2012, 07:05 PM
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It was leaked today that the Mazda 6 is coming here with the Skyactiv Diesel.

Here's hoping that the diesel is gaining traction in this country and will push refiners to make more diesel and the feds to drop diesel tax down to the same as gas.
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  #108  
Old 11-28-2012, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
It was leaked today that the Mazda 6 is coming here with the Skyactiv Diesel.
I'll believe it when I see it. All the Japanese makers have promised diesels for the US market, but nothing has ever come out.

Only the Germans have followed through with their promise of clean diesels in North America.
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  #109  
Old 11-28-2012, 07:37 PM
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I'll believe it when I see it. All the Japanese makers have promised diesels for the US market, but nothing has ever come out.

Only the Germans have followed through with their promise of clean diesels in North America.
It is leaked by journalists sneaking onto the stand at the LA Auto Show, not some random presser...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...les-auto-show/
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  #110  
Old 11-28-2012, 07:53 PM
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It is leaked by journalists sneaking onto the stand at the LA Auto Show, not some random presser...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...les-auto-show/
Yeah, I saw that this morning. Pretty cool, if it actually happens.

Specs look impressive.

Acura announced TSX diesel. Nissan announced Maxima. Subaru announced boxer diesels. Toyota said they would bring a Tundra/Sequoia diesel. All said they would for the US market, but none ever did.

Checy Cruze diesel was announced early '12. I think that should be out soon also.
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  #111  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:04 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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BMW also plans to introduce three new diesel models to the U.S. in 2013, in addition to the highly successful BMW X5 35d, which reported a sales increase of 39% last year to over 10,000 vehicles (10,276). The 4-cylinder diesel will premiere in the 3 Series Sedan and Touring and the new 6-cylinder diesel will make its debut in the 5 Series. For the first time ever in the U.S., diesel AWD will be offered in the BMW 5 Series.
link

Last edited by tim330i; 01-14-2013 at 10:39 AM.
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  #112  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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bayoucity bayoucity is offline
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Here we go!

link
Thank you God.

Last edited by tim330i; 01-14-2013 at 10:39 AM.
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  #113  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:28 AM
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Here we go!

link
Finally! Audi and Mercedes forced BMWs hand. 535xd will be awesome

Last edited by tim330i; 01-14-2013 at 10:40 AM.
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  #114  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:55 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Finally! Audi and Mercedes forced BMWs hand. 535xd will be awesome
Do not choose Sophisto grau.
I did, but now would rather have a nice blue one.
And white is spectacular on the Touring.
Put on the sport suspension with stabilisation, the electronics can be foreseen.
The air suspension is more comfort than sport, with good tires put on, the metal stiffening will suffice. I guess you know you're way around...
I had a panorama roof in the E61, the car is better without it.
Hhmm, do not forget a black ceiling and a thick steeringwheel with your SAT.
I love my 18 inch Michelin supersports, to big wheels with the RFt mistake, seems to be a standard x mistake in the states, do not take delivery of your car with such crap.
No throttle issues, no turbo hole, just plain torque pleasure at low RPM's superbly managed by the SAT.
Oh, this news was only on the diesel motorization... Is the Touring coming to you?
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  #115  
Old 01-14-2013, 10:59 AM
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kanar200 kanar200 is offline
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535d? Based on what I read until now, it would be rather 530d

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Finally! Audi and Mercedes forced BMWs hand. 535xd will be awesome
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  #116  
Old 01-14-2013, 12:06 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
535d? Based on what I read until now, it would be rather 530d
I agree- power output matches the single VNT '30d' and not the dual turbo setup of the '35d'
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  #117  
Old 01-14-2013, 05:28 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is online now
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I bought my 2011 F10 because I got tired waiting for the soon to be released diesel. For 2013, I didn't even bother to look.
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  #118  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:12 PM
pharding pharding is offline
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The big question is when for the 5er diesel.
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  #119  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:22 PM
d geek d geek is offline
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The big question is when for the 5er diesel.
Info provided last Sep indicated third quarter of this year.
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  #120  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:24 PM
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bayoucity bayoucity is offline
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I want to do ED for F10 oil burner. Can't wait !
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  #121  
Old 01-14-2013, 11:18 PM
Haitoman Haitoman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheezypoof View Post
A bigger gallon certainly helps.

We will see more Diesels because they help OEMs achieve 2016 CAFE standards. But just like hybrids, this comes at a cost to the consumer. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they realize they have a looong way to go before breaking even on $2k to $3k premium they paid for the motor.

Diesels earned market share in Europe because their governments were primarily interested in legislating fuel consumption, aka CO2; they effectively subsidized Diesel operating costs, but had to sacrifice NOx and particulate standards. To meet US standards requires more costly aftertreatment devices, which also penalize Diesel efficiency.

The notion that Diesels will last forever does not apply. As another poster mentioned, all the high tech stuff they have to hang on a modern Diesel to make it perform (and do so cleanly) is just more stuff that can break.

Finally, performance (torque) - no doubt the new Diesels are a blast off the line, and you can get huge torque #s from smaller displacement thanks to the higher compression ratio. To me the biggest downside of Diesels when it comes to driving enjoyment is the lack of audio soundtrack, they just don't sound fun.

This is so true. I have driven a 320d for a few years and yes it has some torque even compared to my new 535i, but the sound is the number one thing that turns me off every morning. I'm also surprised that I lost a turbo at 60k miles which probably has nothing to do with it being a diesel, but it was a factor in my decision to buy a 535i instead of a 535d.
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  #122  
Old 01-15-2013, 09:46 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I bought my 2011 F10 because I got tired waiting for the soon to be released diesel. For 2013, I didn't even bother to look.
No you did not and man were you pregnant in a whim!
How is the fuelly on the M, you'll have past the 4 fills I guess.
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  #123  
Old 01-15-2013, 04:28 PM
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No you did not and man were you pregnant in a whim!
How is the fuelly on the M, you'll have past the 4 fills I guess.
I just did fill-up number five on the way home from work this evening. The X5M is at 16.6mpgs. It's doing better than the 15 mpgs that I expected, so it's not doing too bad for a truck with a 12/17 EPA rating.
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  #124  
Old 02-03-2013, 07:25 AM
d geek d geek is offline
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http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=674004
Info provided by Jon Shafer indicates that the F10 diesel will be badged 535d and will also be available as xDrive starting this July

Still unknown is what engine will show up in the car. The info "leaked" last July indicated that the car will have power output that closely matches that of the Euro single turbo 3L. Since they are taking liberty with the badging on N American models (328d??), I would not be surprised if they did the same on the 5er and badged it as a "535d" when in Europe it would be called a "530d" with the same engine. Trivial annoyance in my book- just glad the d's are starting to roll in!!!

Last edited by d geek; 02-03-2013 at 07:37 AM.
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  #125  
Old 02-03-2013, 08:27 AM
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bayoucity bayoucity is offline
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I've waited 2 1/2 years for this torque beast since the early rumor .
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