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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #51  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:11 PM
Jackson743 Jackson743 is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
OK.



Bingo.
Not to pile on, but you just acknowledged that you're earlier statement is incorrect.

You're not helping this poor unfortunate BMW owner. He will take a hit on depreciation. Depreciation is the only matter at issue and it will be a material number. Of course, $11,000 is just ridiculous and I'd like to know who the carrier is and how in the hell they arrived at that value.

Second, he's upside down on his loan without gap. Unfortunately, I'm afraid he's just screwed by circumstance. Telling him to get a lawyer, and cough up a retainer is probably not wise at this point.

A couple people have provided some very good advice. He needs to contact the adjuster. Find out what his substantiation is. Because that number doesn't reconcile and can't be substantiated with any FMV figures. He needs to fight, investigate, document, and get ready to negotiate. Don't forget to document dates, times, and details of every conversation.

OP. Good luck. Fight on.
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  #52  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for all the info guys, its really appreciated. I'm going to start negotiating with them tomorrow, and I also applied for possible FEMA assistance. Hopefully things will work out to just a minimum loss
By the way, a quick Google search came up with this document:http://www.liabra.org/documents/reg_64_details.html. Some of the required claim settlement procedures in NY are described from the perspective of the collision repair shop. That's sure to be interesting, as those guys are often between a rock and a hard place when it comes to the insurance companies.

Might be interesting reading for you. You are really gonna be interested in the "cash settlement method" on page 29.
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Last edited by Yobyot; 11-11-2012 at 06:21 PM.
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  #53  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:33 PM
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SARAFIL SARAFIL is offline
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You need to break out the price you paid into the price of the car itself, and then the other fees like tax and registration.

Then compare the insurance company settlement with what you paid for the car. How far off is it? Once again, forget taxes and fees for a minute.

Read the link above, it has great info. Basically the insurance company has to give you enough to buy a comparable vehicle. If you feel the amount they are giving you is inadequate, tell them this and they have the option to find you a comparable car for that amount. If they can't, they have proof that their price is too low. Also, you can ask them to show you how they arrived at the value for your car. It's usually tricky to do on a current year car since there is no book value yet. I wonder if they are taking the base MSRP for a 2013 328xi (assuming this is what you have?) and subtracted for mileage? If so, they could be missing any options that your car has... share with them the window sticker of your car so they can accurately price it out.

Regarding taxes, check with your state. In some states, you get a tax credit on your next purchase for the amount of your total loss. In others, the insurance company should include sales tax in their settlement. Find out how NY treats the tax.
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Last edited by SARAFIL; 11-11-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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  #54  
Old 11-11-2012, 07:17 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackson743 View Post
Not to pile on, but you just acknowledged that you're earlier statement is incorrect.

You're not helping this poor unfortunate BMW owner. He will take a hit on depreciation. Depreciation is the only matter at issue and it will be a material number. Of course, $11,000 is just ridiculous and I'd like to know who the carrier is and how in the hell they arrived at that value.

Second, he's upside down on his loan without gap. Unfortunately, I'm afraid he's just screwed by circumstance. Telling him to get a lawyer, and cough up a retainer is probably not wise at this point.

A couple people have provided some very good advice. He needs to contact the adjuster. Find out what his substantiation is. Because that number doesn't reconcile and can't be substantiated with any FMV figures. He needs to fight, investigate, document, and get ready to negotiate. Don't forget to document dates, times, and details of every conversation.

OP. Good luck. Fight on.
Nope. I agreed the amount of depreciation is the only issue and my opinion remains the depreciation in this situation should be and will be virtually zero.

You have no idea if the OP is upside down on financing, because he hasn't given any information regarding how much he financed.

If you had read the thread thoroughly you would have read the insurance company is GEICO.

I don't make a habit of talking out of my butt. If I give an opinion it is because I have some knowledge that supports that opinion.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 11-11-2012 at 09:58 PM.
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  #55  
Old 11-11-2012, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SARAFIL View Post
You need to break out the price you paid into the price of the car itself, and then the other fees like tax and registration.

Then compare the insurance company settlement with what you paid for the car. How far off is it? Once again, forget taxes and fees for a minute.

Read the link above, it has great info. Basically the insurance company has to give you enough to buy a comparable vehicle. If you feel the amount they are giving you is inadequate, tell them this and they have the option to find you a comparable car for that amount. If they can't, they have proof that their price is too low. Also, you can ask them to show you how they arrived at the value for your car. It's usually tricky to do on a current year car since there is no book value yet. I wonder if they are taking the base MSRP for a 2013 328xi (assuming this is what you have?) and subtracted for mileage? If so, they could be missing any options that your car has... share with them the window sticker of your car so they can accurately price it out.

Regarding taxes, check with your state. In some states, you get a tax credit on your next purchase for the amount of your total loss. In others, the insurance company should include sales tax in their settlement. Find out how NY treats the tax.
just fyi - the car has 48 miles on it and was two days old at the time of loss.
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  #56  
Old 11-12-2012, 05:52 AM
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I don't mind sharing the financials to give you a clearer picture of what I'm facing. I paid $46,400 with an added tire protection of $2804, making the price $49,204. Altogether with taxes and fees, the grand total was $53,568.39. I made a cash payment of $19,000, therefore leaving me financing $34568.39. I'm pretty sure they won't pay for the tire coverage, since that just rolls over if I buy another BMW. The insurance company wants to offer me approx $43,400, minus $500, so making it a settlement of $42900. This is just insane IMO , for a 2 day old car with just 48 miles.
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  #57  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Colbert View Post
I don't mind sharing the financials to give you a clearer picture of what I'm facing. I paid $46,400 with an added tire protection of $2804, making the price $49,204. Altogether with taxes and fees, the grand total was $53,568.39. I made a cash payment of $19,000, therefore leaving me financing $34568.39. I'm pretty sure they won't pay for the tire coverage, since that just rolls over if I buy another BMW. The insurance company wants to offer me approx $43,400, minus $500, so making it a settlement of $42900. This is just insane IMO , for a 2 day old car with just 48 miles.
We all agree with you. And the advice you've been given here is, "Negotiate, negotiate, negotiate." Have you read through the Regulation 64 link I posted yesterday?

You have our complete sympathy -- but posting your financials here won't help you with the insurance company. You have to do that yourself.
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  #58  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:25 AM
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Yes, I've read it Yobyot...very helpful indeed. Thank you
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  #59  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:38 AM
Colbert Colbert is offline
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So Yobyot, if I'm reading this correctly, they can only depreciate a new vehicle by 53 cents per mile?
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  #60  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:00 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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Originally Posted by Colbert View Post
I don't mind sharing the financials to give you a clearer picture of what I'm facing. I paid $46,400 with an added tire protection of $2804, making the price $49,204. Altogether with taxes and fees, the grand total was $53,568.39. I made a cash payment of $19,000, therefore leaving me financing $34568.39. I'm pretty sure they won't pay for the tire coverage, since that just rolls over if I buy another BMW. The insurance company wants to offer me approx $43,400, minus $500, so making it a settlement of $42900. This is just insane IMO , for a 2 day old car with just 48 miles.
After having this information their offer seems a lot more fair than it first appeared. They've depreciated the vehicle by $3K not $11K. It's unlikely you're going to recover the extra costs (wheel, taxes, title, etc) as you're insuring the vehicle against loss.

To recover the tire / wheel protection you may be able to either roll it over into a new BMW purchase or receive a refund. Taxes may also be creditable to a new vehicle...check with you state to determine what your options are.

Last edited by sunny5280; 11-12-2012 at 07:01 AM.
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  #61  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:07 AM
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So Yobyot, if I'm reading this correctly, they can only depreciate a new vehicle by 53 cents per mile?
I am not an attorney -- and I don't like in NY state. But I would sure start throwing around Regulation 64 rules, as you understand them, in my conversations with GEICO.
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  #62  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:48 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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After having this information their offer seems a lot more fair than it first appeared. They've depreciated the vehicle by $3K not $11K. It's unlikely you're going to recover the extra costs (wheel, taxes, title, etc) as you're insuring the vehicle against loss.
Incorrect. In fact, it's unlikely the settlement will not include the value of the vehicle PLUS the amount of tax based on that value, title and license. It would be completely outside of industry standard operating procedures for the settlement to be otherwise.
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  #63  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:52 AM
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I still don't think it's fair Sunny5280. According to their website, under the total loss process, it states they will " Pay the actual cash value of the vehicle (plus applicable state fees and taxes) less any deductible"
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  #64  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:53 AM
Jackson743 Jackson743 is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Nope. I agreed the amount of depreciation is the only issue and my opinion remains the depreciation in this situation should be and will be virtually zero.

You have no idea if the OP is upside down on financing, because he hasn't given any information regarding how much he financed.

If you had read the thread thoroughly you would have read the insurance company is GEICO.

I don't make a habit of talking out of my butt. If I give an opinion it is because I have some knowledge that supports that opinion.
You're right, he isn't upside down on his loan. That is good news.

Although, your previous 'the insurance company should me you whole' position is wrong. I believe you were advocating that in another thread. If that wasn't you, I apologize. And lawyering up over this amount of money is also wrong. But, it appears you have subsequently backed off both those positions. That is good, we both learned something. I'm now wondering if sales tax and other fees in included in my USAA policy.

It appears the delta is smaller than originally reported. I wish the OP the best and hopefully he can replace is old BMW with a like for like new one.
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  #65  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:56 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
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I still don't think it's fair Sunny5280. According to their website, under the total loss process, it states they will " Pay the actual cash value of the vehicle (plus applicable state fees and taxes) less any deductible"
Can you provide a reference to this statement? Regardless my statement is about what they're giving him for the value of his car. At first it sounded as if they were depreciating the car by $11K when they're not. They're only attributing $3K depreciation to the car. While still high, IMO, it's a lot more reasonable than $11K worth of depreciation.

With that said the adjuster has already given him an amount for his car. It seems like much of the dispute will center on the taxes and fees. If his policy states they will cover those items then he's on fairly solid ground to lose at most $3.5K.
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  #66  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackson743 View Post
You're right, he isn't upside down on his loan. That is good news.

Although, your previous 'the insurance company should me you whole' position is wrong. I believe you were advocating that in another thread. If that wasn't you, I apologize. And lawyering up over this amount of money is also wrong. But, it appears you have subsequently backed off both those positions. That is good, we both learned something. I'm now wondering if sales tax and other fees in included in my USAA policy.

It appears the delta is smaller than originally reported. I wish the OP the best and hopefully he can replace is old BMW with a like for like new one.
I don't mean to be real rude, but you'd be well served to read for comprehension and not just skim. Try rereading exactly what I've written.
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  #67  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:20 AM
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Ok guys, I can't crucify them just yet. I just spoke with the salvage dept, and apparently they're comparing my model with another that doesn't include my features, such as the cold weather package and premium package. I just faxed them the window sticker, so hopefully they'll be gracious and up that sum. Also, they thought I was leasing, and therefore did not include taxes, but they're changing that. I'll keep you guys posted.
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  #68  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:48 AM
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I still don't think it's fair Sunny5280. According to their website, under the total loss process, it states they will " Pay the actual cash value of the vehicle (plus applicable state fees and taxes) less any deductible"
It sounds like things are getting better, but every time you post something else, you indicate that you don't understand the terms very well.

"Actual cash value" IS NOT "replacement value." ACV is judgement call, ergo, a negotiation between you and the insurer about WHAT THE CAR IS WORTH TO A WILLING BUYER.

While ACV may SOUND like it means you "get the actual cash you'd need to replace the car," it is not -- not even close.
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  #69  
Old 11-12-2012, 10:51 AM
Jackson743 Jackson743 is offline
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I don't mean to be real rude, but you'd be well served to read for comprehension and not just skim. Try rereading exactly what I've written.
I read DigitalMPower's response in the other thread. He's in the business and give clear and comprehensive advice. A game plan for the OP. You stated full MSRP on a car with 5k miles and that is the carrier's responsibility. The make you whole thing. That is just wrong. I was surprised to read that in a BMW forum. You and I would like that to be the case, but the car did have 5k miles on it. DigitalMPower gave the OP advice, dependent on his policy and the circumstances, to maximize his position. Maybe he gets full MSRP, but he'd have to work it and maybe get a little lucky. I learned it's a process, not an absolute as you stated. I recommend you reread the thread.

We both know a lawyer too early in a case like this, with these $$$'s, is not wise.

What did I learn? Read and understand your policy and if, God forbid, something happens . . . work and advocate your rights.

I didn't mean to tweek you, but I've got a real sore spot about blowing up situations like this with attorneys. You were so quick to recommend B if A didn't initially happen. Best to keep one's head and not get emotional.

My last post on this subject.
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  #70  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:44 AM
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Ok guys, I can't crucify them just yet. I just spoke with the salvage dept, and apparently they're comparing my model with another that doesn't include my features, such as the cold weather package and premium package. I just faxed them the window sticker, so hopefully they'll be gracious and up that sum. Also, they thought I was leasing, and therefore did not include taxes, but they're changing that. I'll keep you guys posted.
Given they've already offered you within $3K of what you paid for the car this is excellent news. I can easily see that number decreasing significantly once the two packages you mentioned are added in. Same thing with that taxes...looks like you might come out reasonably well on this.
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  #71  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:25 PM
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"Actual cash value" IS NOT "replacement value." ACV is judgement call, ergo, a negotiation between you and the insurer about WHAT THE CAR IS WORTH TO A WILLING BUYER.

While ACV may SOUND like it means you "get the actual cash you'd need to replace the car," it is not -- not even close.
I'm not sure what you're referring to by "worth to a willing buyer". That makes it sound like it's more of a NADA Private Party value. Not saying that's what you meant, but just for clarity, that's not what actual cash value means.

Actual Cash Value is the agreed upon FULL RETAIL VALUE of the vehicle at the time of loss, whether the car is two days old with 48 miles or ten years old with 100,000 miles. In 1999 my 3 year 9 month old 1996 Infiniti G20 was totalled by an at fault driver. The driver's insurance company offered me $12,000. I went into the market and found four examples of similar G20s for sale at retail at local dealers with an average asking price of $14,600. The insurance company agreed to pay $14,600 for my car, plus tax, title, and license. Just a side note - my car had 53,000 miles. It turns out I was able to find a literally identical car (which is what I wanted) that was nine months newer and had only 21,000 miles and buy that car, including TT&L, for only $1,000 more than my settlement amount. For 32,000 fewer miles I was very happy to do that.

OP, the same applies to you. A car like yours on a dealer's lot today would have a FULL RETAIL VALUE of virtually 100% of the selling price you paid. That is the amount you are due, plus TT&L.
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  #72  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:03 AM
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SD Z4MR SD Z4MR is offline
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I paid $46,400 with an added tire protection of $2804...
Holy crap! You paid $2,804 for tire protection? You paid almost three times what I paid for the BMW Tire and Wheel Protection for 5 years! That's 6% of the total value of your car! Based on the price of our car we paid only 1.5% of the total value of our car for tire and wheel protection.

You said in an earlier post that this is your first car. Did you get any advice from anyone with any car buying experience before you bought the car?
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  #73  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:18 AM
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Yes, I did get plenty of advice SDZ4MR. I was advised to turn down all the other warranties and just get the tire protection, even though it was steep. I live in New York City, and we have the absolute worst roads in America. I had run flat Pirelli tires, and I'm sure those would be expensive to replace. I have a friend that has replaced 3 tires in 2 years, and it was quite expensive for him, so I figured I wasn't taking any chances. This time around though, I may purchase my F30 out of state, and get everything for a better price.
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  #74  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:41 AM
EnerJi EnerJi is offline
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Yes, I did get plenty of advice SDZ4MR. I was advised to turn down all the other warranties and just get the tire protection, even though it was steep. I live in New York City, and we have the absolute worst roads in America. I had run flat Pirelli tires, and I'm sure those would be expensive to replace. I have a friend that has replaced 3 tires in 2 years, and it was quite expensive for him, so I figured I wasn't taking any chances. This time around though, I may purchase my F30 out of state, and get everything for a better price.
No offense my friend, but you still got completely ripped off. $2800 would pay for an brand new set of tires from tirerack.com, with plenty of cash left over. What are the odds that you will claim enough tires over a) the life of the policy or b) your time with the car for it to be worthwhile? I'll tell you - FAR less than 50%. That's why these are such a great profit center for the dealer.

As an aside, I strongly believe we need to start teaching the concept of insurance in our education system. So many people buy insurance to protect themselves for costs they can easily afford. If you're buying a $50k BMW, you should be able to afford the cost of a few tires if you are unlucky enough to ruin them prematurely.

Insurance is designed to protect against CATASTROPHIC loss, that would not be easily paid for and / or would wipe out a high percentage of your lifetime savings or assets. It's not wise to purchase insurance for anything other than catastrophic loss, as insurance has a highly negative expected value (EV).

Intuitively, this should make sense. Insurance is expensive, the insurance carrier has to pad the price to protect themselves from unforeseen events, plus they need to make a profit. Then the dealer adds their profit margin on-top. Then there's all the overhead involved, advertising and marketing budgets, insurance raters, fraud investigators, the back-office [edit] folks to handle all the claims and paperwork, cut the checks, etc. Tire insurance is also particularly susceptible to fraud (conveniently rolling over a few large nails right as your tread wears out), which also gets factored into the price.

TL;DR
Don't get insurance for non-catastrophic events. Particularly stay away from tire insurance, as it's a bad deal almost regardless of the price you get it.

Last edited by EnerJi; 11-13-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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  #75  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:44 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
what!!!!!!!!!

you have to take an $11,000 hit on the car?????

I dont think there is much recourse here without gap insurance...make sure you get the gap insurance next time around.

Yes. Evidently, OP drove it off the lot.

I believe OP should sue, naming FEMA, Hurricane Sandy, the National Weather Service, his building's owner, local government, and Obama.

Obtain a court date and he need only show up for the award, sure to be far in excess of $11k.

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 11-13-2012 at 07:34 PM.
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