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Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 06-23-2014, 12:46 PM
sirbikes sirbikes is online now
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downward trend in DPF regens

I think I'm seeing a downward trend in my average miles between regens. I have 75K on my vehicle. What could this mean ... DPF effectiveness waning, overfuel condition leading to more soot (I have a remap), carbon buildup? How to know?
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  #2  
Old 06-23-2014, 06:38 PM
BMWTurboDzl BMWTurboDzl is offline
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Looks normal to me on a year over year basis. I would guess you did a bit of traveling during the holidays.

FWIW the DPF will eventually clog up. Knowing avg speed and mpg would be helpful.
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:01 AM
sirbikes sirbikes is online now
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I did a fair amount of traveling, yes, as well as some towing. Mostly highway miles, with some stop and go traffic mixed in. Avg speed 75mph on highway and 35 city, maybe 47 avg. MPG is fairly constant around 24 avg. Seems like it's dropping a bit recently, but too early to tell, may just be the hot 85+ deg and humid weather now.
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  #4  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:55 AM
mefferso mefferso is offline
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Ha, and I thought I was the only crazy one that kept track of every regen. Haven't put mine in a nice looking spread sheet yet though.

I can't really offer an answer other than agreeing possibly DPF not as effective for whatever reason or maybe a slight malfunction of the sensor that measures the flow differential before and after the DPF
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  #5  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:47 AM
glangford glangford is offline
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How do you get your dpf regen data? I've never sensed my 328d having one.
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  #6  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:03 AM
Jamolay Jamolay is online now
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Ok, I'll ask. What is a dpf regen?


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  #7  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:20 AM
mattebury mattebury is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamolay View Post
Ok, I'll ask. What is a dpf regen?
Oversimplified, when the DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) gets clogged up with soot, the car will purposefully increase exhaust gas temperature to incinerate that soot and restore the filtering function of the DPF.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:26 AM
mefferso mefferso is offline
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
How do you get your dpf regen data? I've never sensed my 328d having one.
Im sorta ocd about watching my instantaneous mpg dial and when drops about 10 mpg below normal for 10-15 miles is when its occurring.
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  #9  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:29 AM
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Axel61 Axel61 is offline
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cant wait to remove the DPF my downpipe will be finished this weekend thanks to 2deerwhistlers, anyone want a downpipe contact him any X5d need to send him a DPF so he can make a prototype and make some for our x5d brothers
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  #10  
Old 06-24-2014, 10:41 AM
Jamolay Jamolay is online now
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Is that legal?
Sucks that you care so little a about polluting unnecessarily.


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  #11  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:14 PM
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Jamolay its not legal are u going to pay for future breakups on my car? No so I'm not worried about my car polluting just go over china and most of india are they regulated dont think so

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  #12  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:46 PM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamolay View Post
Is that legal?
Sucks that you care so little a about polluting unnecessarily.
The amount of emissions controls necessary to meet current EPA diesel requirements constitutes an extremely disproportionate tradeoff. IOW, the cost vs. benefit of the DEF+DPF+EGR is way higher than the benefit of the small reduction in emissions they give, in terms of both the manufacturing and the maintenance costs.

And if you want to use the term "unnecessary," consider that diesel soot is not even a pollutant in the strictest sense of the word - just a mostly inert, black carbon-based particulate people don't like to look at.
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Old 06-24-2014, 12:54 PM
glangford glangford is offline
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Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
The amount of emissions controls necessary to meet current EPA diesel requirements constitutes an extremely disproportionate tradeoff. IOW, the cost vs. benefit of the DEF+DPF+EGR is way higher than the benefit of the small reduction in emissions they give, in terms of both the manufacturing and the maintenance costs.

And if you want to use the term "unnecessary," consider that diesel soot is not even a pollutant in the strictest sense of the word - just a mostly inert, black carbon-based particulate people don't like to look at.
The cost/benefit analysis is not the consumer's job, and it's surely not the consumer's to decide, at his will, to not comply with the mandated regulations.
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  #14  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:55 PM
BMWTurboDzl BMWTurboDzl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
The amount of emissions controls necessary to meet current EPA diesel requirements constitutes an extremely disproportionate tradeoff. IOW, the cost vs. benefit of the DEF+DPF+EGR is way higher than the benefit of the small reduction in emissions they give, in terms of both the manufacturing and the maintenance costs.

And if you want to use the term "unnecessary," consider that diesel soot is not even a pollutant in the strictest sense of the word - just a mostly inert, black carbon-based particulate people don't like to look at.
But NOX is.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:44 PM
Pierre Louis Pierre Louis is offline
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post
The cost/benefit analysis is not the consumer's job, and it's surely not the consumer's to decide, at his will, to not comply with the mandated regulations.
So, uh, tell me you comply with each politically derived, bureaucrat enacted, and (cough cough) fairly applied rule and regulation in both spirit and substance?

How does it feel to always go below or at the speed limit?

Diesel exhaust from automobiles is still more strictly regulated than light trucks, while lawn mowers, old cars, etc. are allowed to pollute much more....

As do we all, we would like to comply with all regulations and laws. This in an ideal world.

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Last edited by Pierre Louis; 06-24-2014 at 01:45 PM.
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  #16  
Old 06-24-2014, 01:50 PM
Pierre Louis Pierre Louis is offline
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But NOX is.
To the best of my knowledge, the particular type of smog that NOx contributes to at the minuscule levels that diesels put out (although more so than gassers) affects the Los Angeles Valley the most, from where, coincidentally, come the major legislators responsible for CARB and its effects on the rest of the country. It was said that before the "settlers" came, the valley was known for its black sky from smoke caused by wood fires of Native Americans.... the valley apparently holds in a lot of smoke with surrounding mountains etc.

The NOx rules are meant originally for gasoline engines, but when all the regs are applied to reasonably de-smogged diesels (circa model year 2002 for example) diesels come out better in most other pollutants. Putting a square peg into a round hole is what the feds have done with automotive diesel emission rules. We are paying for it with our "super clean" diesels' emission equipment costs...

PL
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Last edited by Pierre Louis; 06-24-2014 at 01:52 PM.
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  #17  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:40 PM
MotoWPK MotoWPK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
And if you want to use the term "unnecessary," consider that diesel soot is not even a pollutant in the strictest sense of the word - just a mostly inert, black carbon-based particulate people don't like to look at.
A carbon based particulate that contains many complex compounds, including a number that are known carcinogens.
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  #18  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:52 PM
Jamolay Jamolay is online now
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Although I agree that there are costs and losses associated with emission controls, and that the individual emissions of a diesel car are somewhat small in the grand scheme if things, it is attitudes like this that are leading us to severe global problems due to overall pollution levels. We need to do what is reasonable and prudent and eliminating emission controls already in place shows a willful disregard for the planet and your fellow human beings.
I am sorry you disagree, it is sad for all of us.


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  #19  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:55 PM
YozhDzl YozhDzl is offline
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Both NOx and CO are greenhouse gases. However, European regulation are more CO focused and North American are more NOx focused. That is why small diesels are not popular here. If you look at Euro 6 requirements vs LEV2 requirements, you will see a clear picture of how much more CO is allowed under LEV2 vs NOx compared to Euro 6. Probably something to do with the fact that gasoline powered cars put out much more CO and legislation is favoured to the oil industry, big three and all the truck driving crowd. Pick your poison, but I would rather drive a much more efficient diesel that I have to modify to be more reliable and as a byproduct of it, more efficient, with a bit more NOx. But my CO will still be low and my PM are slightly more elevated and will precipitate faster and will have less of a chance of causing cancer.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:02 PM
Pierre Louis Pierre Louis is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamolay View Post
Although I agree that there are costs and losses associated with emission controls, and that the individual emissions of a diesel car are somewhat small in the grand scheme if things, it is attitudes like this that are leading us to severe global problems due to overall pollution levels. We need to do what is reasonable and prudent and eliminating emission controls already in place shows a willful disregard for the planet and your fellow human beings.
I am sorry you disagree, it is sad for all of us.


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Driving a diesel in itself is an improvement over gasoline engines but not the "ultimate solution" which as a society, we have no idea how to implement. The divisiveness of many political stands, including those on global climate change, where each side mis-represents the other in addition to its misguided rhetoric, is what is sad.

PL
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:09 PM
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Ditto PL

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  #22  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:13 PM
wxmanCCM wxmanCCM is offline
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NOx emissions are regulated for two primary reasons - one is that NO2 (NOx is actually a "family" of oxides of nitrogen; NOx = NO + NO2 typically) has an ambient air quality standard (NAAQS); two is that it participates in the production of ground-level ozone (ozone is the primary constituent of "smog"). There are no areas in the U.S. that are in nonattainment with the NO2 NAAQS, and haven't been since 1998 (i.e., when Tier 1 was still in effect), so further NOx reductions are not indicated.

With respect to ozone production, NOx can either produce or destroy ozone, depending on the chemistry of the ambient air. Most urban areas in the U.S. (which are the areas which mostly are in nonattainment with the ozone NAAQS) have been shown to be "VOC limited" with respect to ozone production. In VOC-limited conditions, NOx actually destroys ozone, and reducing NOx can actually result in increasing levels of ground-level ozone. This is fundamental atmospheric chemistry, and has been documented for decades when ambient NOx levels are significantly reduced on weekends (mostly from a very large reduction in diesel truck traffic) in a phenomenon known as the "weekend ozone effect."

It would be much better to dramatically reduce NMOG/VOC emissions while S-L-O-W-L-Y reducing NOx emissions. EPA has acknowledged the disbenefit of reducing NOx in VOC-limited areas, but has apparently decided that it is more politically palatable to concentrate on NOx emissions from diesels rather than VOC emissions from gassers.
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  #23  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:14 PM
sirbikes sirbikes is online now
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Yes, this is how i can tell. It's not hard. I get the major regens. Smaller ones and any passive regens I miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mefferso View Post
Im sorta ocd about watching my instantaneous mpg dial and when drops about 10 mpg below normal for 10-15 miles is when its occurring.
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  #24  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:17 PM
sirbikes sirbikes is online now
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Just the DPF, or are you also removing the SCR cat and associated parts as well. Who is doing your coding out, or are you leaving the sensors in the new pipe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axel61 View Post
cant wait to remove the DPF my downpipe will be finished this weekend thanks to 2deerwhistlers, anyone want a downpipe contact him any X5d need to send him a DPF so he can make a prototype and make some for our x5d brothers
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  #25  
Old 06-25-2014, 04:29 AM
BMWTurboDzl BMWTurboDzl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wxmanCCM View Post
NOx emissions are regulated for two primary reasons - one is that NO2 (NOx is actually a "family" of oxides of nitrogen; NOx = NO + NO2 typically) has an ambient air quality standard (NAAQS); two is that it participates in the production of ground-level ozone (ozone is the primary constituent of "smog"). There are no areas in the U.S. that are in nonattainment with the NO2 NAAQS, and haven't been since 1998 (i.e., when Tier 1 was still in effect), so further NOx reductions are not indicated.

With respect to ozone production, NOx can either produce or destroy ozone, depending on the chemistry of the ambient air. Most urban areas in the U.S. (which are the areas which mostly are in nonattainment with the ozone NAAQS) have been shown to be "VOC limited" with respect to ozone production. In VOC-limited conditions, NOx actually destroys ozone, and reducing NOx can actually result in increasing levels of ground-level ozone. This is fundamental atmospheric chemistry, and has been documented for decades when ambient NOx levels are significantly reduced on weekends (mostly from a very large reduction in diesel truck traffic) in a phenomenon known as the "weekend ozone effect."

It would be much better to dramatically reduce NMOG/VOC emissions while S-L-O-W-L-Y reducing NOx emissions. EPA has acknowledged the disbenefit of reducing NOx in VOC-limited areas, but has apparently decided that it is more politically palatable to concentrate on NOx emissions from diesels rather than VOC emissions from gassers.
Well with gassers you do have vapor recovery at the pumps and charcoal filtering at the fueler neck. Getting rid of carburetors helped as well. In any case you're right but of course with areas such a LA car traffic doesn't really drop on weekends. In areas where both car and truck traffic drop on weekends O3 would also drop.


On a side note thankfully ULSD has about wiped out SOx. Of course port cities continue to have a problem because marine diesels don't use ULSD.


Can't wait for the day when we have compliant cartridge UREA Systems with NO EGR. Amminex.com
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