Finally saw an ATS

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

It's a pig, star of the Bergen Center Outlet Mall.

BJ

Saw my first ATS up close, in Westchester Mall today. It looks ok, interior looks decent. Then you see the sticker price. $50k buys a lot of car.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Saw my first ATS up close, in Westchester Mall today. It looks ok, interior looks decent. Then you see the sticker price. $50k buys a lot of car.

Used t'be, $5k bought a cream puff with Cadillac wreath way, way, way out in front.

Yo! There was a car, sweet & pillow soft. Dang, wish I had me one!

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Used t'be, $5k bought a cream puff with Cadillac wreath way, way, way out in front.

Yo! There was a car, sweet & pillow soft. Dang, wish I had me one!

BMW has been tailoring the 3 series to suit you as you aged. I see the L328i is just pillow soft enough for you now.

Originally Posted by dtc100

BMW has been tailoring the 3 series to suit you as you aged. I see the L328i is just pillow soft enough for you now.

The Luxury line takes just enough of the edge off of the suspension to make it perfect. It's far stiffer than any non-sport Mercedes, Lexus, or Audi yet not as stiff as the Sport or old M-Sport which I ran away from.

It still handles like a beast.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The Luxury line takes just enough of the edge off of the suspension to make it perfect. It's far stiffer than any non-sport Mercedes, Lexus, or Audi yet not as stiff as the Sport or old M-Sport which I ran away from.

It still handles like a beast.

BJ

What I read is, MB and Lexus are getting stiffer too. Since you refuse to move to 5 or 7, out of your financial wisdom, I can only guess the 3 series will continue to tailor to your needs and become softer as your body gracefully age.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

The Luxury line takes just enough of the edge off of the suspension to make it perfect. It's far stiffer than any non-sport Mercedes, Lexus, or Audi yet not as stiff as the Sport or old M-Sport which I ran away from.

It still handles like a beast.

BJ

Like a Beast of Burden!

Originally Posted by dtc100

What I read is, MB and Lexus are getting stiffer too. Since you refuse to move to 5 or 7, out of your financial wisdom, I can only guess the 3 series will continue to tailor to your needs and become softer as your body gracefully age.

Exactly.

BMW knows what it's doing. The F30 is bigger, wider, longer, and softer because that's precisely what their market research told them their customers want. The whole company rides on the success of the 3 Series, not like some 50 year old Germans got together and designed the thing on a whim.

For answers as to what BMW's customers want, look no further than the car itself. Speaks volumes. 6 cylinder low torque, no. 4 cylinder high torque, okay. Firm suspension, no. iDrive LCD screens, yes. MT XDrive, no. Smaller cabin tighter handling, no. Larger cabin easier handling, yes.

BJ

Originally Posted by dtc100

BMW has been tailoring the 3 series to suit you as you aged. I see the L328i is just pillow soft enough for you now.

Whalp, running yellows + M sways & linear springs. Pothole explosions instantly disappeared, but cream puff it ain't.

So. I like convertibles, but E93 has constricted trunk space. Here's what I'm thinking:

I saw the ATS at the SF car show this weekend. It looks better in person, and when comparing it to the F30, I almost prefer the look better than the BMW. I'm happy that GM has made huge improvements in styling, bot ext and int, to have it be in the same league as German cars. BJ is right though, the brand attracts an older crowd and all I saw we're a bunch of old men with white hair checking out the car. I had to run away over to the BMW / Audi camp to feel my age again.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

For answers as to what BMW's customers want, look no further than the car itself. Speaks volumes. 6 cylinder low torque, no. 4 cylinder high torque, okay. Firm suspension, no. iDrive LCD screens, yes. MT XDrive, no. Smaller cabin tighter handling, no. Larger cabin easier handling, yes.

BJ

If I wanted the A4 I would just get one.

Originally Posted by sf_loft

the brand attracts an older crowd and all I saw we're a bunch of old men with white hair checking out the car. I had to run away over to the BMW / Audi camp to feel my age again.

That is, 50ish with grey hair?

The average buyer of a BMW is hardly a spring chicken.

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

If I wanted the A4 I would just get one.

BMW is trying to make the 3 series the Camry of the entry level luxury segment, as BJ points out, nothing wrong with that. So don't complain when the traditional 3 enthusiasts, or the auto reviewers, prefer MB or Caddy over the handling of the new 3.

Originally Posted by sf_loft

I saw the ATS at the SF car show this weekend. It looks better in person, and when comparing it to the F30, I almost prefer the look better than the BMW. I'm happy that GM has made huge improvements in styling, bot ext and int, to have it be in the same league as German cars. BJ is right though, the brand attracts an older crowd and all I saw we're a bunch of old men with white hair checking out the car. I had to run away over to the BMW / Audi camp to feel my age again.

Very true, it was a very sobering experience. On the other hand, from reading the ATS forums, those traditional older Caddy drivers don't buy ATS. The actual ATS buyers, over 70% of them are first time Caddy drivers. I frequently read those who moved from BMW and Mazda, to ATS. Yes, BMW and Mazda are the two biggest converts.

That says a lot. Mazda to the mainstream segment, is the 3 to the entry level luxury segment, for a fun driving experience. The natural upgrade path of the Mazda drivers is the 3 series. Now you have the ATS as a viable alternative.

Again from a business stand point, BMW is right, which drivers are the biggest target from the mainstream segment do you want to attract? Camry/Honda drivers, or Mazda drivers? Of course Lexus, MB and Audi are also after that target.

Originally Posted by dtc100

BMW is trying to make the 3 series the Camry of the entry level luxury segment, as BJ points out, nothing wrong with that. So don't complain when the traditional 3 enthusiasts, or the auto reviewers, prefer MB or Caddy over the handling of the new 3.

This has been going on for several years, at least a decade, so it's not new news.

The 3 Series is two different cars:

1. A $50,000 German luxury car leading the segment it shares with Mercedes Benz C Class.

2. A $36,000 European alternative to a Honda Accord.

Someday when there's a 2 Series Sedan BMW will no longer need to have the stripper version of the 3 Series as the 2 Series will address that pricepoint. Until then, the two-car strategy works quite well.

So when you say "the ATS is attracting new buyers, especially from Mazda and BMW" you ain't talking about us. You're talking about us 15 years ago when all we could afford was the $36,000 stripper.

A fully loaded Honda Accord is $37,000. If one cares more about being seen in a status symbol one can eschew the fully loaded Accord and get the stripped BMW for less money. The ATS can have all of those for all we care, sort of tired of seeing old secretaries and middling middle managers in no-lines passing themselves off as Mr. Big.

No BMW owner getting a well-optioned $50,000 3 Series is giving a second thought to the ATS. That's a laughable idea.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

So when you say "the ATS is attracting new buyers, especially from Mazda and BMW" you ain't talking about us. You're talking about us 15 years ago when all we could afford was the $36,000 stripper.

No, I wasn't talking about you 15 years ago, I was talking about those current drivers who are 15 years younger than you (Mazda drivers), and those BMW drivers who still prefer fun driving aspect more so than the badge.

No BMW owner getting a well-optioned $50,000 3 Series is giving a second thought to the ATS. That's a laughable idea.

BJ

As Chris90 said earlier, an ATS is easily priced at $50k, it is also clear the traditional older Caddy drivers do not buy ATS, and so far over 70% ATS buyers are first time Caddy drivers. Maybe those are mostly Mazda owners moving up, who knows.

But even it is true, it is still not a good thing, as pointed out earlier, most of those Mazda drivers could have moved up to 3 series.

I haven't had the opportunity to drive an ATS but I would be interested in doing so and coming to my own conclusions.

I don't think anyone here is a spokesman for all BMW drivers. If there is statistical data showing that "No BMW drivers will buy a Cadillac" I would be interested in seeing it.

You can be sure, if someone is buying a $50k Cadillac, they sure considered a BMW. So if the ATS sells well, it'll take some sales from BMW, there's no doubt of that.

Originally Posted by UnderSteer

I don't think anyone here is a spokesman for all BMW drivers. If there is statistical data showing that "No BMW drivers will buy a Cadillac" I would be interested in seeing it.

You've seen the stats already, BJ is just our another statistic

Saw my first one today. Fitting enough, it was a rental car. Looks good from the front, not a fan of the rear. I want to drive one.

The problem with this whole thread is that neither a 3 series nor an ATS should be evaluated on a sports basis. If you want a true sports sedan, you are buying an M3 sedan or an AMG. The 3 series buyer wants a nice car in that size range that has excellent utility and handles well with all the smart bells and whistles. I don't know many 3 series buyers that are buying because of the 0-60 times or the skid-pad number.

Originally Posted by filmoreslim

The problem with this whole thread is that neither a 3 series nor an ATS should be evaluated on a sports basis. If you want a true sports sedan, you are buying an M3 sedan or an AMG. The 3 series buyer wants a nice car in that size range that has excellent utility and handles well with all the smart bells and whistles. I don't know many 3 series buyers that are buying because of the 0-60 times or the skid-pad number.

With you living in San Francisco, I'm sure you can appreciate a car that can handle the hills and turns with ease, and have the power on demand. In my area of PA, we have mostly hills and narrow winding roads that one really needs a car that has the power and great handling abilities. That's what always attracted me to buying BMWs because they did handle so well. It had nothing to do with track times.

Originally Posted by filmoreslim

The problem with this whole thread is that neither a 3 series nor an ATS should be evaluated on a sports basis. If you want a true sports sedan, you are buying an M3 sedan or an AMG. The 3 series buyer wants a nice car in that size range that has excellent utility and handles well with all the smart bells and whistles. I don't know many 3 series buyers that are buying because of the 0-60 times or the skid-pad number.

So what exactly constutes a "True Sports Sedan"? 0-60 times and skid pad numbers can be impressive on paper but do not tell the entire story about how a car drives in the environment it is going to be driven in (which is generally not a drag strip or a skid pad). People buying sport sedans are generally not looking for hard core track cars or race cars, they are looking for a car that balances daily driver practicality with somewhat better than average performance. The ATS and the 3 Series both fit that definition and depending on how they are optioned can be oriented toward luxury or toward sportiness, but in any of their available iterations both would qualify as sport sedans IMO

If you are looking for a hard core dedicated track car you are not going to find one in a BMW, Mercedes Benz or a Cadillac showroom.

I got my wife an F30 328i because the overall car for the money was impressive. A 4 cyl with 240 hp and great gas mileage. Nicely appointed interior and electronics. Nice looking, handles well. Bavarian quality manufacturing and technology - Eco Pro, 8 speed transmission, BMW Apps. The previous car was an E92 M3 vert that I leased traded because (1) it was sucking 7 mpg going over Nob Hill on her 1 mile commute to work and (2) I was impressed with the value/innovation of the F30 for approx. $500 per month. I skipped the 6 cyl because if I wanted acceleration I would have kept the E92 M3...

You mean e93. The e92 is a coupe.