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  #1  
Old 10-02-2016, 09:29 PM
mattz123 mattz123 is offline
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Is rust inevitable?

Hello. Long story short this will be a big deciding factor in choosing my future bmw.

Im assuming the newer model (03+) had much better rust proofing from factory.

I live in southern ontario canada.. so that means salt.

Lets say I picked up a clean e34, or e28, that has not been winter driven. (I WILL winter drive it) Does that mean no matter if I get krown rust proofing spray.. no matter what I do.. because of salt rust will occur after a few years no matter what? Thanks,
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  #2  
Old 10-02-2016, 09:38 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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It is very dependent upon location and environment.
If you live by the sea, or have to drive on salted roads then you're going to have to be vigilant, no matter what car you drive.
I'm fortunate that where I live it's largely a hot dry climate, but my '97 E39 has lived in all kinds of places along the east coast, from Sydney in the City, to coastal Ballina, and now a little more inland north of Brisbane. It's still completely rust free, mostly due to good care and washing regularly.
If you're vigilant and proactive with regards to rust mitigation there's no reason why it shouldn't last as long as any other vehicle. Be sure to give it a good check out before purchase, starting behind the ball isn't going to help.

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Last edited by StRaNgEdAyS; 10-02-2016 at 09:43 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:04 PM
mattz123 mattz123 is offline
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no sea here. I live in south ontario near toronto. just canadian winters with salty roads
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  #4  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:32 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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I don't think we salt our roads either... Environmentalists don't like it. The alpine shires here use sand to supply traction instead.

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  #5  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:02 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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Neil Young spoke the truth... rust never sleeps, at least where you live. Pretty much any car driven up there in the winter should be considered disposable.

Things have got a lot better, though. Most cars are now made with two-sided galvanized steel. It was a trick to get paint to look right on the outer side, but they eventually figured it out. The roofs (without sunroofs) are often made from single sided galvanized steel, since water (and salt) never get inside there. BMW also sprays a sealant in rust prone areas. A lot of cars have the lower areas out of sight sprayed or dipped with PCV before painting.

There was a Ford plant that built F-150's where I lived. At some point the plant expanded and started supplying F-150's to northern states instead of just to southern and southwestern states. Somebody at Ford accidently let the cat out of the bag that since the plant's F-150's were going north, they improved the paint and rust-proofing to match the other F-150 plants. WTF?

A co-worker bought a relatively new F-150 from a guy who moved down here from Minnesota. He paid the price. A hole started to form in his rear quarter panel.

I lived in a Gulf-front condo' for a while down here, and parked my car outside. If I got a rock nick, it'd start rusting almost immediately if I didn't hit it with touch-up paint. Other than that, rust isn't a problem down here unless you have a 4WD and are driving on the beach, or you clean and maintain swimming pools for a living. Chorine-based pool chemicals are highly corrosive.

They make deluge systems that soak the underside of a car with fresh water. But, you need fresh water and above-freezing temperatures.

I stuck my hand up under the rear quarter panel wheel well lip on my E46 once and came out with a hand full of mud. That would scare the Hell out of me if I lived up north. I'd stick a hose-fed flower watering wand up there and flush it out every chance I got if I lived up north. (I said "rear quarter panel" instead of "fender" because fenders are by definition removable.)

It's not just the body itself that will rust. It's every exposed nut, bolt, and clamp that will rust.

A lot of northerners go used car shopping in the southern U.S. Rust isn't normally a problem here anymore; but the paint and upholstery gets fried by our intense sunlight.

E39's are supposedly known for rust starting inside the gas door, according to these guys...



Last edited by Autoputzer; 10-02-2016 at 11:13 PM.
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  #6  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:13 PM
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Isn't there a service in your area where they spray extra underbody protection? I don't know what are the materials but I can ask.

Also don't park the car in the garage for the winter. The colder it is the slower the salt eats the chassis.
The worst case scenario is if you drive on salty roads and park the car in a heated garage so the warmer salt will corrode the metal faster plus this salty snow will fall on the floor and keeps the underbody in salty vapor.

Same if you park the car in the garage all the time but you keep driving the car next to it and that brings in this salty snow.
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  #7  
Old 10-03-2016, 04:49 AM
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No, I do not believe that "rust is inevitable," but we must be ever vigilant.

My previous car lived its entire life, may still be, thirteen years old, first in a sea coast town and then on 'dirty-sand salted' roads, and rust free.

I used to test stainless-steel Rx components for free iron by wrapping the part in a seawater soaked rag and examining it 24-hours later for the red rust spots. Even stainless must be carefully processed and used to be rust free. And some rust is useful, we carefully maintained the rusty inner surface of Rx coolant piping systems.
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  #8  
Old 10-03-2016, 05:44 PM
Rick D Rick D is offline
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Salty roads are a tough one.. Nothing worse in my opinion.. Unless you live at the coast and he ocean waves are splashing on your car.

I would find a car wash that has the underbody spray and visit it weekly in the winter time when ever salt or "saline solution" is being used on the roads...
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  #9  
Old 10-03-2016, 06:12 PM
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This is the one I was talking about. The system is called Tuff Kote Dinol.

The article is in Hungarian but click on the pictures, they talk for themselves. They cover all the suspension parts too and also take care of the sill wells.

http://totalcar.hu/magazin/technika/..._alvazvedelem/
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  #10  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:11 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
No, I do not believe that "rust is inevitable," but we must be ever vigilant.

My previous car lived its entire life, may still be, thirteen years old, first in a sea coast town and then on 'dirty-sand salted' roads, and rust free.

I used to test stainless-steel Rx components for free iron by wrapping the part in a seawater soaked rag and examining it 24-hours later for the red rust spots. Even stainless must be carefully processed and used to be rust free. And some rust is useful, we carefully maintained the rusty inner surface of Rx coolant piping systems.
O.k. I'll bite. Did you have a trick? Sacrificial anode? Cathodic charging?

About a year after I started working at my last location, we got a new phone system that would let our phone number follow us around from building to building over our careers. I inherited a phone number from a recently retired chemist who was a world-renowned expert on corrosion. He drove a XKE that look like it'd been sitting in a corn field for 20 years. The originally red car was pink from sun fading. But, there wasn't s spec of rust on it.
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  #11  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
O.k. I'll bite. Did you have a trick? Sacrificial anode? Cathodic charging? [ ... ]
ZERO oxygen, we maintained an excess of H2 in a strong radiation field, and a very high pH = -log [H3O]

I begged off a couple of days from my last professional training in 1991 to attend a nearby boiler chemists' professional convocation on corrosion chemistry. One of the attendees had a perfect 1000 points MB 300SL Gullwing to drive to special events. I parked my Lincoln rent-a-wreck a long ways away from that gem.

There I learned about Zebra Corrosion due to steam flow, downstream of piping penetration, flow disturbances - in 2 meter diameter pipes. My big pipes were 24" 60 cm diameter.
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 10-03-2016 at 07:28 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:21 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
ZERO oxygen, we maintained an excess of H2 in a strong radiation field, and a very high pH = -log [H3O]
... with your old car?
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2016, 07:30 PM
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... with your old car?
Riiight. Easily
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  #14  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:56 AM
mattz123 mattz123 is offline
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OP here.. ty for answer guys..

So ok i can pretty much kiss the idea of getitng an older bmw good bye then right? (e34.. e28, e24) Since it would be my daily driver and thus would be driven in winter..

I dont mind idea of getting a newer bmw. Newer cars in general are a lot more rust proof right. I mean my friends infiniti g35 is from 2004 and has no rust. It was sprayed underneath by krown or whatever its called every single year, basically if I get a 2003 e39 m5 i hope too its that easy for me. Or is 2003 still a little too old?
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  #15  
Old 10-04-2016, 11:25 AM
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If you are diligent about cleaning the salt off regularly and quickly, it should be fine. Of course any car will develop rust if it is bathed in salt. If you take care of it, you will likely sell it before it becomes an issue.
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  #16  
Old 10-04-2016, 03:12 PM
z3jeff z3jeff is offline
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Being from Michigan, I am well aware of the damage road salt causes. Once it starts it spreads like cancer. I have been living in Texas for many years and when I bought my 2001 Z3 2 years ago, an important factor was that it was originally bought in Texas and only registered here and New Mexico, salt free states. I don't know much about the improved sealants they now use, but in the past it was impossible to stop the rust when exposed to the salt. Good luck.
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  #17  
Old 10-04-2016, 04:28 PM
shawninohio shawninohio is offline
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Now you buy an electronic box that stops that from happening.
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  #18  
Old 10-04-2016, 04:59 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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I don't put any faith in the electronic box thing.
They're an expensive gadget that in reality doesn't work.
They essentially use the paint as a a capacitive dielectric, so any surface that isn't protected already by paint isn't going to be protected by this. The other thing to note is in order for such a system to work, the voltage would need to be far in excess of the 12V our vehicles supply.
I knew this electrical engineering thing I got back in the 80s would come in handy one day

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  #19  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:02 PM
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  #20  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:19 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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Oh one other thing... These electronic systems. Need to have a ground to work as well they work on ships because A. They are supplied with a few hundred volts, and B. They are grounded by the water they float in.
So unless you're storing your car in water, they're not going to be that effective for you.

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  #21  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:25 PM
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The ships that I sailed on used zinc bars quite effectively. The automotive equivalent would be zinc galvanized steel/metal.
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  #22  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:26 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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The ships that I sailed on used zinc bars quite effectively. The automotive equivalent would be zinc galvanized steel/metal.
Yep.
Sacrificial anodes are especially effective.

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Old 10-04-2016, 05:30 PM
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Yep. Sacrificial anodes are especially effective.
Then from where did your idea of hundreds of volts come from? Electronegativities are on the order of a (1) volt.
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  #24  
Old 10-04-2016, 05:31 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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Because ships use more than one method of corrosion protection.

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Old 10-04-2016, 05:35 PM
StRaNgEdAyS StRaNgEdAyS is offline
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The zinc bars are anodes. The electronic protection is cathodic, two different types.

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