Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

I think the comparison to the 5 is indeed typically for two generations ago. The current 5 is very heavy and has soft handling. Consumer Reports claimed BMW screwed it up, so you can imagine what hard core enthusiasts think about it.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.

I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.

Originally Posted by calwaterboy

yo hi - who makes porsche's steering feedback unit?

zf.

Originally Posted by EddieB

I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.

Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY

Yo HI - who makes Porsche's steering feedback unit?

I believe it's Bosch. I will double check tomorrow.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

zf.

Thought it was Bosch. I will confirm with a tech tomorrow.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).

The early generation run flats were very noisy, on top of being jarring and uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I think the comparison to the 5 is indeed typically for two generations ago. The current 5 is very heavy and has soft handling. Consumer Reports claimed BMW screwed it up, so you can imagine what hard core enthusiasts think about it.

BMW did make a concerted effort to make the F10 5er more appealing to E Class buyers. There also were a pretty fair number of E39 owners who felt the E60 was too raw/harsh. The key these days to a more "traditional" handling 5er is Active Roll Stabilization. ARS is really, really good. It eliminates virtually 100% of body roll. The ZDH is another key factor in giving the F10 more sport sedan handling. When the F10 first came out no sport suspension was available. The ZDH was a necessity to have a sport suspension. If I'm reading correctly at least the M Sport package does now actually have a sport suspension. If that's correct the ZDH may not be a necessity.

Originally Posted by EddieB

I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series. But it weighs less. The F 30 335i also has more horsepower than any of the E 39 5 series except for the M5. It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.

Dual climate controls confirm the F30 is a mini-5er? The 3er has had dual climate controls since the introduction of the E90 in 2005.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

I believe it's Bosch. I will double check tomorrow.



Thought it was Bosch. I will confirm with a tech tomorrow.

OK. According to ZF it's them.

Originally Posted by EddieB

It kind of is the new mini 5 series, and dual climate controls confirms that.

Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).

It was a combination of the run flats and the OEM dampers. I was able to get the harshness under control by ditching the RFTs and replacing the shocks with Koni FSDs. At this point I am satisfied with both the handling and the ride comfort. After my experience with the 335i Sport Suspension and with the 750Li I would not purchase a BMW that did not have an adjustable suspension.

CA

Originally Posted by tturedraider

The C Class doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, feel better or more fun to drive. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

I have a C250 for 2 months (Hertz Rental). I am not sure if it is the luxury or sport model and don't know how to tell. It is sparsely optioned and a decent car but is not as fun to drive as my 335i. This is the second one as I had some issues with the first and swapped it out. The current one drives much better than the first one did. The steering feels more precise and the car feels more planted. Ride quality on both is firm but not squishy. I assumed they were identical but they do not feel the same. Maybe the shocks were shot on the first one. Both cars had about 16,000 miles on them. This one says "Blue Efficiency" on the side not sure if the other one did. I did not have any complaints about the ride quality on my 335i when I drove it on the same roads I a driving the Mercedes on (Palm Beach Florida Area)

CA

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Word on the street is that BMW is making a 2013 mid-year change to the F30 and enabling simultaneous sync for two phones via Bluetooth so that the driver and passenger can talk to each other.

BJ

Ring, Ring, Ring

Passenger: "Hello"

Driver: "Hi, It's BJ over in the drivers seat."

Passenger: "Hey BJ, what's up?"

Driver: "Did you see the jealous look on the face of the driver of that Camry we just passed?"

CA

Originally Posted by dunderhi

I found non-RFTs and lightweight wheels were a fix to the pothole explosions on my 335d.

Same here. Conti DW's on the stock 18's and have never had a pothole explosion since. I live in the Chicago area where the roads aren't exactly wonderful.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

BMW did make a concerted effort to make the F10 5er more appealing to E Class buyers. There also were a pretty fair number of E39 owners who felt the E60 was too raw/harsh. The key these days to a more "traditional" handling 5er is Active Roll Stabilization. ARS is really, really good. It eliminates virtually 100% of body roll. The ZDH is another key factor in giving the F10 more sport sedan handling. When the F10 first came out no sport suspension was available. The ZDH was a necessity to have a sport suspension. If I'm reading correctly at least the M Sport package does now actually have a sport suspension. If that's correct the ZDH may not be a necessity.



Dual climate controls confirm the F30 is a mini-5er? The 3er has had dual climate controls since the introduction of the E90 in 2005.

Don't look now, but the E36 3 series also had them. The E46 dropped them and managed to came up with one of the lousiest HVAC systems ever to grace a BMW. Of course, the E46 has reached iconic status, now that it's been 7 years since anybody could get one, and in the mean time, everyone remembers only the good parts.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.

In my short test drive of an F30 I didn't find the EPS to lack feedback. It's definitely different than an E90, more filtered and smoother but not lifeless as many seem to portray. I'd love to test drive a new 911. I'll have to put it on my list.

By the way the most recent issue of Car and Driver has a great article comparing EPS to HPS. They test two current 5 series, an xDrive and a RWD model. The xDrive has HPS due to lack of space for the EPS motor. While a test of the much softer 5 is not apples to apples with an F30, they were surprised how well the EPS did vs the HPS.

Originally Posted by jmsent

I've owned at least one of each from the E30 on. I had 2 E46's, including a 330i and an M3.
I don't think the E46 was the pinnacle at all. The E36 was lighter and had a more connected feel. My E30 was simple, very light, and a blast to drive. It came standard with limited slip diff. The I6 (post ETA) engine had some of the best mechanical sounds ever. My E46 330i had a lot of problems; all of them well documented by others on these boards. As a whole, I'd say it was a solid car, but kind of boring. My M3 was a great track car but poorly suited as a daily driver. My E92, one HPFP not withstanding, has been by far the most reliable of all the BMW's I've owned. I also found it capable of filling the shoes of both my old 330 and my M3. Not perfect, but pretty darned good. IMO, each generation has had its strength and weaknesses, but on the whole, the 3 series has moved forward and kept up with the times and mostly ahead of the competition throughout the years. I'm sure BMW will make appropriate adjustments to address the points of the MT comparo(such as they are). It isn't the first time a 3 series lost, and usually by the next model year, they were right back on top.

Well said. That's why we complain, not to annoy BJs, but to get BMW to address issues, like fixing the steering in 2001, or offering the ZHP package in 2003.

The E46 is not the pinnacle, maybe it's the best compromise. Each new 3 has gotten slightly less fun and involving, but also nicer and more comfortable, and more technologically advanced. The buyer has to decide how important each aspect is to them.

To me that's still the E46. I paid $33k cash for it 7 years ago, when I was a lot poorer. I think I could afford $550/month if I wanted an F30.

Originally Posted by Slick Willy

If you are a 'leaser' BMW is by far the best bang for the buck - IMHO. They depreciate the least of ALL the competition.....which makes for a more competitive lease. If I was buying the car....the S4 would have entered into the picture much more heavily.

A minor point - BMWs depreciate just as much as Audis, it's just that BMW fudges the numbers to get attractive lease rates. They've lost a lot of money on their over-estimated residuals, but the alternative (higher lease rates) would kill their sales.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Please stop comparing a modified car to a stock car. He can slap on a turbo charger and leave you in his dust. Your point is moot.

+1 Let's not attract tuned Civic owners to the forum.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I'm not calling myself a hardcore 3 Series enthusiast at all.

Just saying that I'm a hardcore E90/F30 3 Series owner for the past 7 years and understand BMW's non-enthusiast strategy quite well as I'm that target customer. While the enthusiasts lament the growing size and softening ride, I embrace it as it's exactly what I wanted.

BJ

What you don't understand is that BMW owners may not track their cars, or understand countersteer, but they do pay attention to a car's reputation. The 3 series attracts buyers cause it has the reputation of being the sportiest compact sedan, the same way people buy Range Rovers but never drive them off pavement - they want that image even if they never use the performance.

So if the 3 series starts losing every comparison to C350s or some Caddy, it will affect sales, just watch.

BMW knows this - so I bet (or hope) when the 2 series sedan comes out, they will try to make it more fun to drive, not just smaller. Size is not the F30's problem. The E39 M5 was just as big and heavier, but great fun to drive.

Originally Posted by Chris90

+1 Let's not attract tuned Civic owners to the forum.

No discussion of modified cars? Is replacing RFTs with summer go-flats not one of the modifications?. A lot was also said about BMW offering performance parts to make the stock car more fun to drive.

Of course the point was that in stock form, in fact in base stock form, ATS's chassis is so well tuned that it impressed many people, despite the other areas of shortcomings.

Originally Posted by EddieB

I looked up the specs for the E39 and the F30 335i. The F 30 is wider, longer and has more cargo room than the E 39 5 series.

I suggest you double check your facts before posting. The E39 (188" LOA) is 6 inches longer than the F30 (182"LOA). A quick comparison of the rear seat spaces would also indicate the larger size of the E39.

Originally Posted by dtc100

No discussion of modified cars? Is replacing RFTs with summer go-flats not one of the modifications?. A lot was also said about BMW offering performance parts to make the stock car more fun to drive.

Of course the point was that in stock form, in fact in base stock form, ATS's chassis is so well tuned that it impressed many people, despite the other areas of shortcomings.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2012/10/02...-and-5-series/

Originally Posted by DerekS

I suggest you double check your facts before posting. The E39 (188" LOA) is 6 inches longer than the F30 (182"LOA). A quick comparison of the rear seat spaces would also indicate the larger size of the E39.

Good catch. I should have used the Wiki. But whether or not, it does remind me of my E39 530i.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

It's Jameson...like the Whiskey. Just an FYI

Nice, same here but with an I.