Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by Chris90

Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/

Blah blah blah...BMW, Mercedes, Cadillac, Audi, Porsche, who cares, at least we're all not driving Hyundai's amirite??

I've been a fanboy for years but only became an owner recently, so while I have driven E46 (01 M3 started the BMW obsession) and other various E9x, I'm no expert on them. I haven't driven a bimmer I didn't enjoy. I love my F30 335 more then any vehicle I have ever owned. I can't comment on the Cadillac but I test drove the MB, and fun factor isn't on par with a 335.

To bash the 3-series because it has evolved is ridiculous IMO. That's what BMW does, they innovate. That's why they are the most valuable automotive brand in the world and one of the top 10 most valuable corporate brands. I'm excited for where BMW is going and think it will only continue to get better. But I'm biased, I'm a kool-aid drinking fanboy, so FWIW.

/going for a drive

^^^ sums up thread nicely.

Originally Posted by Chris90

What you don't understand is that BMW owners may not track their cars, or understand countersteer, but they do pay attention to a car's reputation. The 3 series attracts buyers cause it has the reputation of being the sportiest compact sedan, the same way people buy Range Rovers but never drive them off pavement - they want that image even if they never use the performance.

So if the 3 series starts losing every comparison to C350s or some Caddy, it will affect sales, just watch.

BMW knows this - so I bet (or hope) when the 2 series sedan comes out, they will try to make it more fun to drive, not just smaller. Size is not the F30's problem. The E39 M5 was just as big and heavier, but great fun to drive.

Cadillac feels the negative repercussions of some lousy 1980's vehicles to this very day.

BMW will feel the positive repercussions of the 3 Series 1980's and 1990's reputation for years to come.

The F30 is a superior car for similar money to the E90, so the only thing that can affect sales is if BMW knocks themselves off with a 2 Series sedan. As you well know, BMW owners are loyal to a tee and the F30 has improved the car, not hurt it one iota. There's no incentive for all those E90 drivers to defect to another brand, so they won't.

Instead of harping on the incorrect logic that BMW has done something wrong, try focusing on the correct logic of what BMW did correctly. They softened a car that many thought was too harsh. They enlarged a car that many thought was too small. They poured options into a car that many thought was too stripped. They added a more powerful engine that unbelievably enhances performance and gas mileage. They give more standard features yet keep the monthly prices the same as they've been since 2010. From those perspectives, the F30 is an enormous win and the likes of Audi and Mercedes better be very afraid for their own market share because the F30 is going to steal it like nobody's business.

BJ

I acknowledge the value of comparisons for those looking to buy. As an owner, unless one brand clearly distances my car, I don't really care who's deemed the best. At that point my focus is on whether I like the car. I've had some I've liked, others not so much. Based on the overall experience and many individual aspects I'm happy with the F30. Based on how much I look forward to driving the car it's right there with the best I've owned.

As to those who don't own the car, aren't going to buy it and continue to come here and be critical of it, I view it as miserable people feel compelled to spread their misery. I don't see how they provide anything other than a sad sideshow.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Cadillac feels the negative repercussions of some lousy 1980's vehicles to this very day.

BMW will feel the positive repercussions of the 3 Series 1980's and 1990's reputation for years to come.

The F30 is a superior car for similar money to the E90, so the only thing that can affect sales is if BMW knocks themselves off with a 2 Series sedan. As you well know, BMW owners are loyal to a tee and the F30 has improved the car, not hurt it one iota. There's no incentive for all those E90 drivers to defect to another brand, so they won't.

Instead of harping on the incorrect logic that BMW has done something wrong, try focusing on the correct logic of what BMW did correctly. They softened a car that many thought was too harsh. They enlarged a car that many thought was too small. They poured options into a car that many thought was too stripped. They added a more powerful engine that unbelievably enhances performance and gas mileage. They give more standard features yet keep the monthly prices the same as they've been since 2010. From those perspectives, the F30 is an enormous win and the likes of Audi and Mercedes better be very afraid for their own market share because the F30 is going to steal it like nobody's business.

BJ

I have seen a few F30s in Florida over the past few weeks. I may have seen more but not noticed that they were F30s.
Just for the hell of it I may go to Braman BMW in Palm Beach and test drive one this week.

CA

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I have seen a few F30s in Florida over the past few weeks. I may have seen more but not noticed that they were F30s.
Just for the hell of it I may go to Braman BMW in Palm Beach and test drive one this week.

CA

I think you should do it, and I believe you'll walk away impressed with the suspension and how finely it's been tuned compared to the E9x generation.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

I think you should do it, and I believe you'll walk away impressed with the suspension and how finely it's been tuned compared to the E9x generation.

I thought the suspension on my 335i was great while I had the car in South Florida. After I had it shipped to NYC I hated the harsh ride so much I was ready to either set fire to it or push it into the East River. The way the car is set up now (Conti DWS, Koni FSDs) I am happy with the suspension. I would have to drive an F30 in NYC before I could really make a comparison. I'm in a Mercedes Rental for 2 months. We may go car shopping this week but I doubt we will purchase another Florida car.

Big deal. 1 idiot from Motor Trend thinks the 335 finished 3rd. Whoopty doo. It's not as if his word is gospel...

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I thought the suspension on my 335i was great while I had the car in South Florida. After I had it shipped to NYC I hated the harsh ride so much I was ready to either set fire to it or push it into the East River. The way the car is set up now (Conti DWS, Koni FSDs) I am happy with the suspension. I would have to drive an F30 in NYC before I could really make a comparison. I'm in a Mercedes Rental for 2 months. We may go car shopping this week but I doubt we will purchase another Florida car.

The F30's Chassis handles DC potholes like a champ. I'm sure it can take on NY as well. How's the Mercedes treating you?

I've read most of these comments and there are too many to respond to, but I'll agree with most of what BJ has said.

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).

BMW's usability and ergonomics are fantastic. He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

But you also can't discount the little things these reviews ignore. For example, the BMW knobs to adjust the temperature are significantly more usable than the push buttons found in other vehicles.

Or how about a nuance like this: In the all new Lexus GS350, to turn off the turn single, you have to push the stock in the opposite direction in which the turn single is pointing (you push down to turn left, but then you want to turn it off, you naturally want to push down again... not in the Lexus, you have to push up).

These are the little details that are so frustrating about other cars and not frustrating about the BMW.

But they don't mention this stuff in reviews. No, the guy is only concerned about twisty roads which he knows darn well account for only 2% of his driving.

The reviews aren't weighted correctly in terms of what buyers actually care about.

I'm sure we'd all love driving the ATS on a curvy road. But almost every day my drive is a commute to work and navigating parking lots. I drive a 5 and every time I have to use a 3 loaner, I don't enjoy it as much because the steering is so stiff. I'd enjoy the loaner more if I decide to maybe once in a while perhaps possibly by outside chance take it on a canyon road (here in Utah). But the fact is, that is not reality. That is not day to day driving.

I'm ordering a new F10 this week (I currently drive an E60). I drove my E60 then the F10 in a twisty canyon road back to back (immediately back to back) to compare. Did the E60 provide more steering feedback? Yes, some. Which did I enjoy more? I probably enjoyed driving the E60 slightly more. Which interior did I enjoy more? (probably a rhetorical question, but to be clear: F10). The F10 is so much more polished in every way than the E60. Which did I enjoy more driving between the dealership and the canyon road? The F10 by a long shot.

I like what BMW is doing. If you want an old 3 series, get a 1 series.

-Corey

Originally Posted by cordoor

I've read most of these comments and there are too many to respond to, but I'll agree with most of what BJ has said.

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).

BMW's usability and ergonomics are fantastic. He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

But you also can't discount the little things these reviews ignore. For example, the BMW knobs to adjust the temperature are significantly more usable than the push buttons found in other vehicles.

Or how about a nuance like this: In the all new Lexus GS350, to turn off the turn single, you have to push the stock in the opposite direction in which the turn single is pointing (you push down to turn left, but then you want to turn it off, you naturally want to push down again... not in the Lexus, you have to push up).

These are the little details that are so frustrating about other cars and not frustrating about the BMW.

But they don't mention this stuff in reviews. No, the guy is only concerned about twisty roads which he knows darn well account for only 2% of his driving.

The reviews aren't weighted correctly in terms of what buyers actually care about.

I'm sure we'd all love driving the ATS on a curvy road. But almost every day my drive is a commute to work and navigating parking lots. I drive a 5 and every time I have to use a 3 loaner, I don't enjoy it as much because the steering is so stiff. I'd enjoy the loaner more if I decide to maybe once in a while perhaps possibly by outside chance take it on a canyon road (here in Utah). But the fact is, that is not reality. That is not day to day driving.

I'm ordering a new F10 this week (I currently drive an E60). I drove my E60 then the F10 in a twisty canyon road back to back (immediately back to back) to compare. Did the E60 provide more steering feedback? Yes, some. Which did I enjoy more? I probably enjoyed driving the E60 slightly more. Which interior did I enjoy more? (probably a rhetorical question, but to be clear: F10). The F10 is so much more polished in every way than the E60. Which did I enjoy more driving between the dealership and the canyon road? The F10 by a long shot.

I like what BMW is doing. If you want an old 3 series, get a 1 series.

-Corey

Even the most ardent BMW fan will not question the "usability" of a Lexus. In fact BMW is known to play catch up with Japanese counterparts in "usability." While you agree with BJ for the most part, you both should understand the reason you like the new BMW more than the old, is because the new one is more Lexus like.

In fact even the newer generations of mainstream models, such as Camry, Accord, Fusion, or Malibu, have better "usability" than any entry level luxury models. All of them can take care of your "98%" of driving, often times more comfortably. So why buy a sporty luxury model? Either you buy it for the badge, or you buy it so you can really have some fun with that "2%" of driving.

Originally Posted by cordoor

I will say that the vast majority of buyers will care more about the usability of the car than they will about the "performance dynamics" or whatever. This is found to be true across many markets. It's the reason the iPhone and iPad have stomped the competition. They are simply the most usable while sometimes not having the greatest specs (e.g. the few Android phones I have actually seen have larger screens, but man they are not that usable).
He calls the interior "bland" but frankly, it is usable. Form follows function in a BMW. Just his showing how Cue works immediately eliminated the ATS from my consideration. The same goes for what he should in the MB. This review showed only a few of the major issues with these other cars.

If I didn't know better I'd assume you were describing an Acura. practical, useable interior, and big LCD screen.

We're talking about Ultimate Driving Machines here.

I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA

I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."

Originally Posted by Q. Senna

I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."

Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers.

I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.

I think the Motor Trend reviewer gave his honest opinions of the cars he drove. I may not necessarily agree (I have never driven an ATS or an F30) but I don't think he had any ulterior motives or was bought off by GM.

CA

Is your ATS demo a 3.6 Premium with LSD, magnetic suspension?

I think Motor Trend, C&D and R&T are just crap paid advertisers, hell, they give the magazine away for 30 cents an issue cause they know you're not paying the bills.

Still, these complaints remind me of Audi owners in the past complaining about the 3 series winning all the comparisons cause of biased reviewers.

All of the reviews between Audis and BMWs are true: Audis understeer horribly and don't deliver enough power at the right times while sporting mediocre gearboxes and a "jack of all trades, but master of none" attitude matched with a usually great look exterior. *deep breathe*

Our ATS is a 3.6 Performance and has been into our Cadillac Service Dept. 3 times already for issues. I agree with what you said about being advertisers, 100%.

I have had 2 different C250s (Hertz Rentals) in the past few weeks. As far as I know they were identically equipped and the both had about 16,000 miles when I picked them up. I took the first one back because of some issues. The steering on the one I currently have feels much tighter (I have no idea why) and although not as good as my 335 I would not describe it as numb or scary (but would in the case of the first one). I have not tried the transmission in manual mode and other than trying it out see no compelling reason to do so. I miss the acceleration of the 335 but the Merc is certainly capable of keeping up with traffic and easily merging onto highways. I doubt that very many C250 owners take their cars to the track. For the kind of driving I am doing here on straight flat roads the C250 is more than adequate but not exactly impressive.

C250s are great cars to drive everyday. The interior is a wonderful place to be and the engine can be a blast to mess around with in town. What I'm speaking about is when you push it a little bit. During 'spirited' driving I honestly don't feel comfortable driving a Mercedes-Benz unless it's a 63 of some sort. Again, around town and driving mildly aggressively it is an fantastic machine.

Originally Posted by Q. Senna

I've driven both of these cars quite frequently and I really don't think that there is a comparison in the long run. The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily. I've heard a few people say that they feel that the BMW has a "rubbery" feel to the steering and I don't understand that at all.

The fact that the BMW came last in this comparison shows how rubbish this entire review is. The Mercedes-Benz has scary (and I mean that literally) steering. It is so numb that you really can't feel what's going on and it quite literally scares me and makes me extremely nervous. The gearbox in the Mercedes-Benz is also very, very slow to respond in manual mode and overall pretty sluggish on a track. Same with the Cadillac's gearbox. It's too sluggish in manual mode and I find myself yelling at it more-so than not.

Honestly, I don't think this review holds any merit and was made just so they can say "oooh look at this review because it's controversial."

Given the reviewer knowledge of the cars origins - Mercedes-Benz is produced in Munich and BMW in Stuttgart speaks volumes on who are the potential target for this comparison campaign.
Whoever pays the advertising wins, so GM did here.
I just need to venture to tirerack.com and watch the tire reviews, and see what cars are being driven in these reviews to get a good idea who might be a king of the hill.

You have to love all the excuses LOL! There is a very good reason the 3 series has won most if not all the comparisons in the PAST. It was because of steering, handling and the overall driving feel. Pretty much the same reason the ATS was declared a winner here. The tables have turned and the ATS is a better sport sedan. Multiple reviews stated the same. The F30 is moving the same direction the F10 did. In no longer is what the 3 series was and there is a 2 series on the horizon for this reason.

Originally Posted by lqaddict

Given the reviewer knowledge of the cars origins - Mercedes-Benz is produced in Munich and BMW in Stuttgart speaks volumes on who are the potential target for this comparison campaign.
Whoever pays the advertising wins, so GM did here.
I just need to venture to tirerack.com and watch the tire reviews, and see what cars are being driven in these reviews to get a good idea who might be a king of the hill.

It was a joke.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I am driving a rental Mercedes C250 in South Florida for 2 months. The roads here are in good shape but they are very flat and very straight. The only curves are on/off ramps and the only hills are on the causeways to the barrier islands. Even with those types of roads my wife and I both notice the difference in the feel of the Mercedes vs. our BMWs. The Mercedes is a nice car and will serve our purposes for the next few weeks but it does not drive as well as our 335i. It also does not drive as well as the 750 but that is not really a fair comparison.

BMW's edge has traditionally been the way the cars drove. If BMW loses that advantage IMO they will start losing sales to the competition. When it comes to attributes like luxury and usability BMW does not offer anything that is not readily available in many other brands.

CA

i dont think that has changed. and the thing to consider is the group of buyers that really notice this are the >10% that buy a BMW. i think there is a much greater chance the bmw gains new customers from the lexus and mercedes crowd than lose them to go to an ATS.

I am very please with my F30. My only complaint is its a little large, but everything is an improvement over the E90 335 i had(except the N54>N55)(but ppk should solve that)

Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie

It was a joke.

Was it? I think it was a blunter.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Even the most ardent BMW fan will not question the "usability" of a Lexus. In fact BMW is known to play catch up with Japanese counterparts in "usability." While you agree with BJ for the most part, you both should understand the reason you like the new BMW more than the old, is because the new one is more Lexus like.

In fact even the newer generations of mainstream models, such as Camry, Accord, Fusion, or Malibu, have better "usability" than any entry level luxury models. All of them can take care of your "98%" of driving, often times more comfortably. So why buy a sporty luxury model? Either you buy it for the badge, or you buy it so you can really have some fun with that "2%" of driving.

I drove the all new GS 350. I have not driven any other Lexus. Perhaps they have taken a step back?

Their controller is difficult to use because it requires greater concentration and focus. Their iDrive counterpart was more confusing. The push button temperature gauge is less usable than a dialog. There was the mentioned issue with the turn signal.

There were other issues that I can't remember. But even these I mention were enough to exclude it from my consideration.

Regarding Honda, I have driven them too. I have an Odyssey. Its' nav interface is significantly less usable than my E60's old iDrive. The buttons on the dash are confusing because Honda makes them dual use (e.g. DVD controls when playing a DVD, radio controls and pre-selections when doing audio). Dual use buttons are a disaster.

Anyway...

-Corey