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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #276  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
i dont think that has changed. and the thing to consider is the group of buyers that really notice this are the >10% that buy a BMW. i think there is a much greater chance the bmw gains new customers from the lexus and mercedes crowd than lose them to go to an ATS.

I am very please with my F30. My only complaint is its a little large, but everything is an improvement over the E90 335 i had(except the N54>N55)(but ppk should solve that)
I think it is inevitable that the 3 Series will lose some of the raw edge of the earlier models and do not see that as a bad thing. Things progress and if BMW were to reincarnate the 2002 I don't think it would be particularly well accepted. My point has always been that performance and good driving dynamics and practicality and comfort can exist on the same car.

I have spoken to representatives from both BMW and Lexus. Although they were probably speaking off the record Lexus is very aware that they need to have a more sporty image and BMW is very aware that the harshness of the E9x suspenion (particularly the sport suspension) and the RFTs was an issue to many buyers. I also spoke to someone from Mercedes and he said "We don't want to make the same mistake BMW did with thier implementation of RFTs. All of these companies are trying to retain the qualities that made their cars attractive to their core ustomers and gain the attributes that buyers of the competition felt made their cars more desirable.

The bottom line is that BMW will gain some Lexus attributes and Lexus will gain some BMW attributes and hopefully both brands will retain the qualities that atrracted their present customers.

Only time will tell.

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  #277  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:41 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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If advertising dollars were the reason, GM must have bought out not just MT, C&D, PM, Esquire, Canadian auto journalist association, US Motor Press Guild...

Even if we suppose the F30 iDrive is the best in the class, and that was the reason someone chose BMW over Lexus, some of it had to do with the guy being used to BMW because he has been driving a 5 series all this time.

But hey it is good that a 5 series driver comes here to support BJ's new 3 series, it proves his points. BMW has made big improvements in usability, luxury and comfort, as a result they will continue to sell well, grab market share from MB, Lexus, Audi and Acura. Nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by dtc100; 11-27-2012 at 08:47 AM.
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  #278  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:50 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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If advertising dollars were the reason, GM must have bought out not just MT, C&D, PM, Esquire, Canadian auto journalist association, US Motor Press Guild...

Even if we suppose the F30 iDrive is the best in the class, and that was the reason someone chose BMW over Lexus, some of it had to do with the guy being used to BMW because he has been driving a 5 series all this time.

But hey it is good that a 5 series driver comes here to support BJ's new 3 series, it proves his points. BMW has made big improvements in usability, luxury and comfort, as a result they will continue to sell well, grab market share from MB, Lexus, Audi and Acura. Nothing wrong with that.
How quickly we seem to forget that everyone other mag comparo with the F30 328-the ATS has been trumped where the F30 comes in first. As we know, most of these cars are sold with entry level engines. So where is GM's dollars to save them there?
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  #279  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:27 AM
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  #280  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:32 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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How quickly we seem to forget that everyone other mag comparo with the F30 328-the ATS has been trumped where the F30 comes in first. As we know, most of these cars are sold with entry level engines. So where is GM's dollars to save them there?
It had to do with the 6 speed manual in the ATS, which BTW GM is revising and halted production of same to address the issues. However if you look at the recent comparison of the 2.0T models C & D did you can see that the F30 lost by a lot where it really matters, which is the chassis.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...rison-test.pdf

10 vs 7 for the Caddy when it comes to steering, braking and handling. These again are the main reasons the previous 3 series has won all the comparisons.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes. (We're convinced that the E90 would handily win a comparison test against the F30.) The ATS is unquestionably the more satisfying sports sedan of these two."
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  #281  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:36 AM
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There's always Porsche.
I completely agree;

To me it's a shame that BMW didn't follow Porsche's model; consistently improving on what is already great and flawless. Cadillac is attempting to beat the 3 series at its own game. It shows the impact that the Japanese tech-laden land-yachts on the overall car industry. Before they were real contenders BMW could stick to it's simple and elegant design. Porsche, well the 911 at least, is really in a league of its own. Sure there are other very comparable vehicles at a similar price point but you can't drive any of them to work every day. Like BMWs of yore, the 911 is great just because; and no, it doesn't have a reverse camera!

Frankly I tested an F30 328 and I found the whole experience rather dull compared to an E90. I really did want to like it, but the vague steering, poor throttle response of the turbo and coarseness of the engine really turned me off. I much preferred the c300, it just felt more natural, composed and much more comfortable.

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And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

BJ
I am by no means relegated to driving my E39- I don't drive an e60 or even an F10 because I prefer it to the newer models and simply don't want one. I could have ditched the car years ago, but I like it, and that's what matters. I refuse to buy a new car on the time-frame of society and couldn't care less if people think it's "out of style," it's not a race.
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  #282  
Old 11-27-2012, 11:46 AM
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Today I confirmed that Bosch Makes Porsches electric steering unit.
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  #283  
Old 11-27-2012, 11:57 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=- View Post
Today I confirmed that Bosch Makes Porsches electric steering unit.
Interesting. ZF claims they do. www.zf.com. In Products and Services do a search for Porsche. Though I also found at least one website that is a ZF/Bosch collaboration. It's a little confusing.
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  #284  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:21 PM
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Interesting. ZF claims they do. www.zf.com. In Products and Services do a search for a Porsche. Though I also found at least one website that is a ZF/Bosch collaboration. It's a little confusing.
It is a bit confusing.From what I found out, Bosch also provides the DME for Porsches electrical systems. What I'm interested to know is if Bosch makes BMW's electric steering unit, and if so, why can't they tune it like they tuned Porsches? Looks like it's time to dig deeper.
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  #285  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:34 PM
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It is a bit confusing.From what I found out, Bosch also provides the DME for Porsches electrical systems. What I'm interested to know is if Bosch makes BMW's electric steering unit, and if so, why can't they tune it like they tuned Porsches? Looks like it's time to dig deeper.
Unless it's a ZF/Bosch collaboration ZF makes BMW's unit. I spoke at length with a ZF rep in January at the NAIAS in Detroit. They also provide the EPS for Ford's Super Duty trucks (probably other Ford products, too). He was telling me the tuning is determined by the automaker. According to him they can accommodate whatever specs the automaker wants.


EDIT: I just Googled ZF Steering Systems and there is a ZF/Bosch collaboration.
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  #286  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Unless it's a ZF/Bosch collaboration ZF makes BMW's unit. I spoke at length with a ZF rep in January at the NAIAS in Detroit. They also provide the EPS for Ford's Super Duty trucks (probably other Ford products, too). He was telling me the tuning is determined by the automaker. According to him they can accommodate whatever specs the automaker wants.


EDIT: I just Googled ZF Steering Systems and there is a ZF/Bosch collaboration.
Then we have just found our answer. Thanks!
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  #287  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:49 PM
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  #288  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:12 PM
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The ATS demo that we have already creaks and cracks and it gets very tired, very easily.
My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
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  #289  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:01 PM
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My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
That is an anomaly and a defect in materials and/or workmanship. You should take it in to the dealer to be rectified under warranty. If you choose to live with it that us 100% on you.
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  #290  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:14 PM
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The thing I miss most about the e9x is that awesome, buttery smooth, amazing sounding, I6 engine.
And I continue to maintain that if BMW had really cared about this they could have spent some R & D on a smaller displacement turbo I6 for the 328. They've certainly built plenty of smaller displacement I6s in the past. They've even built a 2.0 liter I6. They purposefully chose the cheap, easy route for the N20. Unfortunately, for you and me and others like us it appears the market is pretty readily accepting their cheap ass decision. I continue to be amazed at how little backlash there has been to the four banger in the 3er. Though the acceptance doesn't seem to be as widespread with potential 528 buyers. Fortunately for BMW the 528 is a pretty low volume seller in the U.S.
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  #291  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:17 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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My E93 335i had a very annoying rattle coming from the dash area that was there the day I got the car. It annoyed the crap out of me and I thought it was unacceptable on what was supposed to be a solidly built car.
After a few days with the car and before I had a chance to take it to the dealer it went away. At this point with about 40,000 miles on the odometer the car is rattle free and very quiet. It feels very solid and tight and considering the beating it has taken on NYC roads I think that speaks volumes for the build quality.

The rattle never returned and I never found out what caused it.

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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-27-2012 at 09:39 PM.
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  #292  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:20 PM
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F30 the ultimate Swiss army knife driving machine
Hmm . . .
Swiss Army knives are oversized, heavy, average at accomplishing every task - not much of a benchmark.
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  #293  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:56 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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My E90 has been creaking since I test drove it with 8 miles on the odometer. My 1985 Cutlass Supreme with 100k miles on it was better in this regard.
I've driven a total of 60K miles in my 2 E90's and both were tight and rattle free. My 2011 with 21,000 miles is as solid as the day I bought it. No rattles at all.
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  #294  
Old 11-27-2012, 06:12 PM
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SARAFIL SARAFIL is offline
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Originally Posted by lqaddict View Post
Was it? I think it was a blunter.
It was a joke- meaning BMW features are determined by whatever MB is thinking of in Stuttgart, and vice versa for MB copying BMW

Some of y'all need to pay closer attention before jumping to conclusions.
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  #295  
Old 11-27-2012, 06:18 PM
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And I continue to maintain that if BMW had really cared about this they could have spent some R & D on a smaller displacement turbo I6 for the 328. They've certainly built plenty of smaller displacement I6s in the past. They've even built a 2.0 liter I6. They purposefully chose the cheap, easy route for the N20. Unfortunately, for you and me and others like us it appears the market is pretty readily accepting their cheap ass decision. I continue to be amazed at how little backlash there has been to the four banger in the 3er. Though the acceptance doesn't seem to be as widespread with potential 528 buyers. Fortunately for BMW the 528 is a pretty low volume seller in the U.S.
Well to be fair they seem to have been successful. I've read that the N20 rattles on startup from the exterior, and perhaps is not as smooth spinning up as an I6. But that seems small potatoes compared to good passing power low down as well as good fuel economy. I think BMW chose the right path, if the right path is judged by greater perceived value by those actually buying cars, vs. the smaller percentage of those who want the smoothness of an I6.

YMMV of course.
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  #296  
Old 11-27-2012, 06:19 PM
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I've driven a total of 60K miles in my 2 E90's and both were tight and rattle free. My 2011 with 21,000 miles is as solid as the day I bought it. No rattles at all.
Ya, 2011 E90 I drove for 11K was as tight as a drum.
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  #297  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:28 PM
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Well to be fair they seem to have been successful. I've read that the N20 rattles on startup from the exterior, and perhaps is not as smooth spinning up as an I6. But that seems small potatoes compared to good passing power low down as well as good fuel economy. I think BMW chose the right path, if the right path is judged by greater perceived value by those actually buying cars, vs. the smaller percentage of those who want the smoothness of an I6.

YMMV of course.
Oh, believe me, it rattles!! Standing next to the car it is louder than the 335d. Significantly.

One of my main points is that BMW could have achieved the same results, low rpm torque/power and good fuel economy with a smaller displacement turbo inline six. Just look at the fuel numbers for the 335i v the 328i. Most of the 328i's fuel economy comes from the ZF 8AT. I honestly believe they probably could have achieved the current fuel economy (or come VERY close) with the N/A I6 from the E9x just with the change to the 8AT and the addition of direct injection. The 2011 3.0 liter I6 528i with the 8AT was rated at 22 city/32 highway. The 2011 328i, with exactly the same 3.0 liter I6, but the 6 speed auto was rated at 18/28.
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  #298  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:40 PM
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Oh, believe me, it rattles!! Standing next to the car it is louder than the 335d. Significantly.

One of my main points is that BMW could have achieved the same results, low rpm torque/power and good fuel economy with a smaller displacement turbo inline six. Just look at the fuel numbers for the 335i v the 328i. Most of the 328i's fuel economy comes from the ZF 8AT. I honestly believe they could probably have achieved (or come VERY close) the current fuel economy with the N/A I6 from the E9x just with the change to the 8AT and the addition of direct injection. The 2011 3.0 liter I6 528i with the 8AT was rated at 22 city/32 highway. The 2011 328i, with exactly the same 3.0 liter I6, but the 6 speed auto was rated at 18/28.
4 is probably a lot cheaper, and I know in Japan, the taxes are lower on smaller engines, could be other countries too.
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  #299  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:45 PM
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4 is probably a lot cheaper, and I know in Japan, the taxes are lower on smaller engines, could be other countries too.
Based on cylinders or displacement, in Japan? In Europe it is based on displacement, but that has very little bearing for this discussion, because BMW has been selling small displacement four bangers in Europe for decades.
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  #300  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:15 PM
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Aaaiiieeeeee!!! Not a Lexus!! Please say it ain't so!!!!!!.

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