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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #301  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:33 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by Quinn Lasser View Post
Aaaiiieeeeee!!! Not a Lexus!! Please say it ain't so!!!!!!

.
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-27-2012 at 07:36 PM.
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  #302  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:39 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
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  #303  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
why havent you posted this in the F10 forum?
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  #304  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA


Perfect. This should eliminate a page or two of predictable fussing.
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  #305  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:21 PM
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why havent you posted this in the F10 forum?
Yeah.
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  #306  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I'll save some of you guys some work.

1. A Lexus is a Rebadged Toyota
2. Lexus is not a Luxury Car.
3. Someone must have paid off the reviewer (what does he know anyway - probably a BMW Hater)
4. No BMW owner would ever drive a Lexus.
5. A Lexus is an old mans car.

CA
That's my line!
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  #307  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:49 PM
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Lexus leads the way to a brave new world....have you seen their new Sport LS?

Wimped M div better get movin'!!

I think I just went blind. That thing is hideous.
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  #308  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."
This wasn't my experience when I drove it.

I wonder what I was doing wrong ;-)

-Corey
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  #309  
Old 11-28-2012, 05:15 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Interesting Lexus review on Autoblog.


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/26/2...-sport-review/

"We're now wondering if this particular enthusiast-tuned GS is a better sport sedan than the benchmark BMW 535i."

"The steering on the Lexus (in Sport S or Sport S+ mode) feels damn near go-kart quick."



CA
Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90. Not hard to beat in a comparo. Let's see if the next IS beats the 3 series.
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  #310  
Old 11-28-2012, 05:59 AM
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Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90. Not hard to beat in a comparo. Let's see if the next IS beats the 3 series.
Which begs the question: When will Lexus show the next IS? The existing one was around when the E46 was still a current model. You would think Toyota, with all its money and resources would be a bit more dynamic with their top line brand.
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  #311  
Old 11-28-2012, 08:41 AM
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Quinn Lasser Quinn Lasser is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Lexus leads the way to a brave new world....have you seen their new Sport LS?

Wimped M div best get movin'!!

I wouldn't get a Lexus if it had wings and could fly. This has nothing to do with performance or style. It's purely emotional. Where I live, every other car is a Lexus. They tend to be the most obnoxious, rudest and most inept drivers on the road. They have a sense of "entitlement" when they drive that puts them in a class all their own. Yeah, yeah, it's a huge generalization, but where we live, that's how it is.
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  #312  
Old 11-28-2012, 08:53 AM
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Old news. Everyone knows the F10 is soft and fat. Much more so than the F30 compared to the E90.
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.

Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
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  #313  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:00 AM
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An important thing to remember is, when reading C&D, R&T, or any of the magazines that sell for 30 cents an issue, and full of car ads, they are required to love every car, whether it's a Lexus, BMW or Cadillac.
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  #314  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:15 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Quinn Lasser View Post
I wouldn't get a Lexus if it had wings and could fly. This has nothing to do with performance or style. It's purely emotional. Where I live, every other car is a Lexus. They tend to be the most obnoxious, rudest and most inept drivers on the road. They have a sense of "entitlement" when they drive that puts them in a class all their own. Yeah, yeah, it's a huge generalization, but where we live, that's how it is.
You just described a typical BMW driver in my area. This is one thing I really don't like about my 3 series, that is the stigma it comes with it.
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  #315  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:45 AM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.
Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
We have an '08 535xi also and the dealer gave me an F10 535i loaner for a day which I took advantage of by driving it through the paces. I'm surprised that you feel the E60 feels close to the F10. It took my wife (the 535xi is hers and she loves BMWs) 10 minutes to say that she wants to keep her car for a long time if this is what BMW has done with the 5 Series. I purchased the BMW extended warranty for her car shortly afterwards.

We also own an E93 335is convertible.
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Last edited by beden1; 11-28-2012 at 10:55 AM.
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  #316  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:57 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Maybe these things are much more subjective than we all want to accept.

I own an E60 535 right now. I drove the all new GS 350 and I've driven the F10 on numerous occasions (and now I've decided to order one).

I do not know if the all new GS 350 is an improvement over the previous GS because I've never driven the previous GS, but it is the worst of the three cars (E60, F10, GS) in terms of driving dynamics. The steering wasn't as good as the reviewers claim. Corning at 60 on a 30 MPH turn was a bit unnerving (the car was not well planted). Not so on the same turn with either my E60 or the F10. Additionally, my butt could not tell much of a difference at all between the various normal and sport modes (despite reviewers saying there is a big difference). The steering and the ride softness in any of the modes felt the same to me.

My E60 does have stiffer steering and better feel over the F10. But it is only marginally better (I guess this is enough for reviewers to slam it?). The F10 is of course better in every other way. And the F10 is still better than the GS in terms of steering feel, ride, and cornering. Additionally, the GS was particularly unsatisfying when putting my foot down (only ~270 torques that come on at much higher RPM than either the E60 or F10).

I have been unable to relate to the reviewers at all when it comes to the GS.

Perhaps what is going on is this: The reviewers are so excited Lexus is finally making an attempt to compete and the GS is so much better than the previous version that their feelings for it have become exaggerated as a result. I wouldn't know, because I've never driven a Lexus before the new GS.

This reminds me of times in the past when I've met up with friends at a steak house I've never been to. We have a great time and the steak tastes like the best steak ever. Then I return to the same steak house a few months later by myself because, of course, the steak was the best steak ever. I get the steak. And lo and behold, it's average? Sometimes the circumstances cause perception to be better than reality.

Sometimes I wonder if you guys who claim the F10 is terribly softer and bigger than the E60 have actually driven both cars, let alone really spent time with them to get a good feel for them.

Who posting on this list has actually driven, and I mean really driven, not just ho hum from point A to point B because your buddy "gave you the keys" to drive back from lunch to the office, the E60, F10, E90, F30, GS, to be able to claim the reviewers and other board members are correct in what they're saying?

Seriously, if you haven't driven the cars, then you can't really say much. I haven't driven the F30, so I keep my mouth shut regarding it. But when people post on these boards the F10 is "soft and fat" because "everyone knows" it, well, that's just not true. I don't know it. But then, I've actually driven them "for real."

-Corey
I have driven them all (the previous GS, not the new one). And I'm with you. The F10 benefits from ARS a little more than the E60, but it is no slouch. And it is not even close to the Chicken Little scenario so many bemoan. When the F10 first came out BMW did a driving event in my area with the Merc E350 and the Lexus GS350. (They also used the Audi A6 in other areas.). All were similarly equipped and were not loaded to the hilt with all the available technology. The 535i ran circles around the E and the GS. The E was especially bad. I was surprised.

BMW definitely increased the luxury factor on the F10 to attract more E Class buyers, but they didn't completely sell out the 5er to do it. btw - I've driven lots of E60s and F10s, not just once at a driving event.
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Last edited by tturedraider; 11-28-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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  #317  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:42 AM
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Quinn Lasser Quinn Lasser is offline
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You just described a typical BMW driver in my area. This is one thing I really don't like about my 3 series, that is the stigma it comes with it.
It's interesting, different regions spawn different types of drivers. I was in the Philadelphia area a few years back and the most aggressive drivers were definitely the BMW drivers. Here, the BMW drivers are mostly tame. The Jaguar and Caddy drivers are the older people (that's a Jaguar for god's sake, it *wants* to be driven), the Mercedes drivers and the Audi drivers tend to fade into the background. The Lexus drivers are a dime a dozen and the Ranger Rover drivers tend to be aggressive as well. But I digress...
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  #318  
Old 11-28-2012, 12:45 PM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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It took my wife (the 535xi is hers and she loves BMWs) 10 minutes to say that she wants to keep her car for a long time if this is what BMW has done with the 5 Series.
She may be better at noticing the difference than I am. I thought my E60 up a canyon road here near my home was marginally better than the F10, but not lots better.

My E60 has the sport package, but does *not* have active roll stabilization. Does your wife's? That could be a difference too.

I will also admit that I am a visual person so the interior of the F10 immediately won me over and to my eyes is miles ahead of the E60. I test drove the new GS because, again, being a visual person, I thought the interior was very classy (love the analog clock). But its driving dynamics were not as good as either the F10 or obviously the E60.

-Corey
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  #319  
Old 11-28-2012, 01:51 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
She may be better at noticing the difference than I am. I thought my E60 up a canyon road here near my home was marginally better than the F10, but not lots better.

My E60 has the sport package, but does *not* have active roll stabilization. Does your wife's? That could be a difference too.

I will also admit that I am a visual person so the interior of the F10 immediately won me over and to my eyes is miles ahead of the E60. I test drove the new GS because, again, being a visual person, I thought the interior was very classy (love the analog clock). But its driving dynamics were not as good as either the F10 or obviously the E60.

-Corey
It's been about a year since we had the F10. She was initially put off by the front bumper and the overall size of the car appeared larger. She really liked the cup holders but hated the interior wood color and thought the dash looked cheapened. The biggest issue for her was the performance. She is a confident driver. The F10 felt sluggish getting onto the highway and sloppy on our back country roads. The brakes did not have as much bite either, and the car had much more body roll around corners.

My wife had a 2001 740il which we leased for business and she really loved. I wish we would have purchased the car at the end of the lease. The next car was an Infinity M45 which was a mistake as she hated the car and wanted back into a BMW. She really did not initially like the looks of the E60 but liked it much better than the 7 Series at the time. Now it's grown on her and the platinum-bronze exterior with cream interior helps the look, IMO.

Her car does not have the sport suspension (for sure) nor active roll stabilization (that I know of?). I bought a second set of 18" M Division wheels and Michelin ultra high performance tires for the summer which helps the car feel more connected to the road. Our 535xi also only has about 22,000 miles on it and still looks new, so I'm happy that she wants to keep it a while longer.
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  #320  
Old 11-28-2012, 02:11 PM
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cordoor cordoor is offline
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Now it's grown on her and the platinum-bronze exterior with cream interior helps the look, IMO.
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
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  #321  
Old 11-28-2012, 02:24 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
That is true. The xDrive has hydraulic power steering. The rwd has eps.
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  #322  
Old 11-28-2012, 03:42 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Location: PA & FL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
Mine is jet black with the cream interior and the burl wood. It's a very nice color combination and feel very sophisticated. I suppose I am also one of those people who has always loved the exterior of the E60.

When I spec'ed my F10, I went with the venetian beige interior. I then added the dark red sycamore ($1,080 individual option) because I agree 100% with her assessment of the standard wood trims: they are terrible in both color and design/look. The dark wood is too dark, you can't see any of the grain. The light wood is too light and makes the plastics look cheap (like she noticed). The anthracite (or whatever it is) is too grey.

I suspect I will be happy with the venetian/dark red sycamore combination but we shall see.

Regarding the performance of the E60 vs. the F10, it sounds like your wife is much more discerning than I am. That's good for you in terms of wallet share (with BMW), or lack thereof rather :-)

That I am less discerning is bad for me for the same reason. But at the same time, I like the F10 interior so much more visually than that of the E60 I am happy to upgrade. Thankfully I can't feel the driving dynamic difference as much as it appears she can or I would stay with the E60 and not get the interior of the F10 I really want.

For me, the F10 drove close enough to the E60 so I'm striking for one. I *am* getting the "dynamic handling package" which gives me the active roll stabilization. Additionally, I have only really test driven xDrive F10's and I have heard there is a steering difference (xDrives are said to be better). I don't know though.

Anyway, I'll now turn this thread back over to the 3 series folks ;-)

-Corey
Enjoy your new car. It sounds like you're excited about it. I'm sure the F10 will grow on my wife in the future, but right now, she still loves her E60 especially now with her winter set of wheels/snow tires.

PS: I'm glad you upgraded the wood trim. The standard woods look like cheap plastic.
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  #323  
Old 11-28-2012, 03:46 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Enjoy your new car. It sounds like you're excited about it. I'm sure the F10 will grow on my wife in the future, but right now, she still loves her E60 especially now with her winter set of wheels/snow tires.

PS: I'm glad you upgraded the wood trim. The standard woods look like cheap plastic.
have her look at the GS too.
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  #324  
Old 11-28-2012, 03:56 PM
hellosopo hellosopo is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
That is an anomaly and a defect in materials and/or workmanship. You should take it in to the dealer to be rectified under warranty. If you choose to live with it that us 100% on you.
The rattles are generally transient, so I don't have confidence the dealer would put in the effort to find it and fix it. It's there one day, gone the next, back another day after that. Rear parcel shelf. 3rd brake light housing. Driver cup holder when open. Something in the dash. Something around the front passenger seat. The buzz in the left B pillar (oh my God, this one is maddening!)

And to be honest, I am afraid that having them ripping the car apart to fix rattles will leave me with even more rattles.

Not to mention the whistling driver side mirror when the window is down, which is definitely not a defect in materials or workmanship. It is exactly as designed and completely wrong for a vehicle of this status. Yes I know how to fix it, the question is why I have to fix it in the first place. The first time I heard it I was having childhood flashbacks to rides in my Dad's old Plymouth Valiant from the '70s.

So when my rattly 3-Series gets to the point of me wanting to get rid of it, the ATS is definitely on my radar. My 328 drives marvelously, it's so comfortable (except for the annoying rattles), and I love how it looks. But I ****canned the Mazda3 it replaced because it turned into a rattle trap, only to find another much more expensive car that has the same exact problem. The rattly test drive should've been an omen, but I was so caught up in how great everything else was about the car that I didn't put adequate concern to the rattles. Now I know.
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  #325  
Old 11-28-2012, 04:32 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Mein Auto: '11 E93 335is & '08 535xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
have her look at the GS too.
We still have over 2 years left on the extended warranty for the '08 535xi. I figure I'll put it up for sale when we have about one year left so it will be attractive to a potential private buyer. The car is in super condition.

My wife also loves the 335is so she may take that one for her car and use the Tahoe during bad and winter weather. I currently use the Tahoe as my highway cruiser between FL & PA. If she takes the Tahoe, then I'll replace our '01 Suburban with some other reliable all-wheel drive highway cruiser.
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Last edited by beden1; 11-28-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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