Motor Trend comparo: 1st Cadillac ATS, 2nd C350, 3rd 335i

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Don't most BMW's fall into that category? I honestly can't call the M cars sports cars anymore. They're too bloated and dull to drive. Sports sedan/Coupe/Convertible would be more fitting.

Definitely.

Beden acts like he's driving an M3 and he's an expert on the E93 and F30 and the BMW brand as a whole when he only has 5,000 miles on his 335i in 26 months. Not sure why he's here ragging on the F30 when he's got the E9X forum to play in.

BJ

Originally Posted by av98

Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...

I'm sorry that that's the way it is, but nothing anyone can do about it.

The baby boomers carried the 3 Series since the 80's, and they're in their 50's and 60's now and they want slightly larger cars with less harsh driving dynamics. These people have been in BMW products for 20 or 30 years and they'll lose them if they make the car smaller and tighter. There's a reason the 1 Series exists and the 2 Series is rumored, they'll cater to the other niches.

For myself, I wanted an E90 that was slightly bigger, slightly softer, and loaded with creature comforts so I'm quite pleased with the F30.

BJ

Originally Posted by beden1

When did you own a 3 Series convertible (335i or 335is or otherwise)? And, in my Porsche, I don't have to pretend to be anybody else.

I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Definitely.

Beden acts like he's driving an M3 and he's an expert on the E93 and F30 and the BMW brand as a whole when he only has 5,000 miles on his 335i in 26 months. Not sure why he's here ragging on the F30 when he's got the E9X forum to play in.

BJ

It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.

Originally Posted by beden1

Most people looking to buy a BMW probably only care about the badge, but there is a core group of BMW owners who are going to be turned off by the softening of the brand. This will open up opportuntities for other car manufacturers to offer what BMW no longer produces. I think this hurts BMW in that the enthusiast market is significant and is a strong benefit to their image sales.

Great point.

Problem is, Cadillac isn't the brand to take advantage of that tiny slice of the BMW owning population. Neither is Lexus. The only options are Audi and Mercedes and both have taken their cut, not going to get any more enthusiasts, BMW still king of the hill.

As for image sales, you know how Cadillac still suffers for the duds of the 1980's? Well turnabout is fair play and BMW perception will benefit from the great cars of the 1980's and 1990's even as the edge is taken off the 3 Series and it gets sedated.

It's clear that the F30 is patterned after the E39 and that eventually there will be a 2 Series patterned after the E46. Best of all worlds. This entire conversation is moot as a result. BMW protected its bread-and-butter, launched it before the 2 Sedan. Not rocket science here.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ

An E93 328i is not a fair comparison to an E93 335is, IMO, except they are both BMWs and both have convertible tops.

Originally Posted by beden1

It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.

Go rent an F30 335i M-Sport with Adaptive M suspension for a week and then report back with your expert opinion. Would love to hear it.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I've been in 3 Series vehicles since mid-2006:

2007 E93 328i
2009 E90 328i M-Sport
2013 F30 328i Luxury

BJ

Can't really call yourself a 3 series hard core enthusiast unless you've been in one since the E30s. Or at least driven all iterations of the 3 series from the initial E21 on up.

e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.

Originally Posted by beden1

It's a 335is and there is a difference, thank you very much. I also drive an M3 sedan when I want to as well as my wife's 535xi. That kinda affords me the opportunity to know something about BMWs, along with the fact that I previously owned a 320i, a 533i and a 740iL.

Now that's more 3 series experience than any E9x or F30 owner. I'll take Beden's word over BJ all day.

Great point & choice on the 335is vert, closest thing the E9x line comes to the E46 ZHP.

320i= E21 or E30?
533i= E28
740iL= E38, I'd own one if I didn't like the cost of repairing major failures for BMW V8s

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Great point.

Problem is, Cadillac isn't the brand to take advantage of that tiny slice of the BMW owning population. Neither is Lexus. The only options are Audi and Mercedes and both have taken their cut, not going to get any more enthusiasts, BMW still king of the hill.

As for image sales, you know how Cadillac still suffers for the duds of the 1980's? Well turnabout is fair play and BMW perception will benefit from the great cars of the 1980's and 1990's even as the edge is taken off the 3 Series and it gets sedated.

It's clear that the F30 is patterned after the E39 and that eventually there will be a 2 Series patterned after the E46. Best of all worlds. This entire conversation is moot as a result. BMW protected its bread-and-butter, launched it before the 2 Sedan. Not rocket science here.

BJ

I really don't care about the Cadillac and I agree with you that it's a moot point. But, and as I stated before, I wish BMW left the 3 Series as their sports sedan and did what they did with the F30 to a 4 Series. There are many years of 3 Series tradition that they tampered with (and that includes the 5 Series which I did spend a day with a new 535i loaner that was nicely equipped).

Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah

I was driving in my car with the top down today (which has a black interior) and was thinking how much I liked it over the lighter options that have several colors going on in the interior and kinda look too busy.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

BJ

You are paying less for your F30 L328i than your E90 M328i, so your new F30 L328i is cheaper to have.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

Just a comment on the review. I love it when people sit in an all black interior and call it drab. Yes, black interiors are boring, dull, and blah

Good point, I don't know what he was complaing about the interior colors, all three models have more interesting color choices, in fact I had seen most of them, the ATS's red interior was the more interesting one of all.

He also complained about ATS being too harsh, it was only so in the sport mode. The F30 is softer. Unfortunately BJ is right, BMW is going more and more after those who care more about luxury, comfort, and gagetry, than driving. But also unfortunately, BJ thinks no one should complain about such trend. More unfortunate is he thinks every Bimmer driver thinks like him.

BTW, the comparison used an F30 335i Sport line, an ATS 3.6 Premium line, and a C350 Sport line. The 335i should have DHP, given the $55,870 MSRP, the ATS should have LSD and MRC, given the $49,185 MSRP.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

Your car is not some enthusiasts dream or a future collectible. It's a pedestrian BMW hardtop convertible. Nice car, but let's not go crazy.

And as for driving dynamics, I've driven your car and the F30 4 cylinder is more fun to drive and more connected to the road than the E93. Your car is at its finest at 30 MPH on a sunny day. Top up at 90 MPH, not the best purchase decision.

BJ

Originally Posted by beden1

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, and from what you have said here, you have definitely never driven a 335is.

So now the guy that buys cars that are meant to be driven slowly to impress the downtrodden has become an authority on vehicle dynamics. Unfortunately there is more to understanding vehicle dynamics than parroting what you read in a magazine review about cars you have never driven on a tracks you have never been to. With all due respect I seriously doubt that without doing a Google search our friend Mr. James could come up with a good description of oversteer vs. understeer, has ever corrected a slide, knows what trail braking is or has ever driven a car remotely close to the limits or can heel and toe downshift (or drive an MT at all). BJ should stick to his forte (imaginary status and made up marketing data) because his imaginary road tests are seriously lacking credibility.

(P.S. Until the 4 Series is released the E92 and E93 are the latest models of the 3 Series Coupe and Cabrio.)

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I owned my E93 longer than you've owned yours, and I put 30,000 miles on mine while you struggle to get to 5,000 so please don't tell me who is an expert on its driving characteristics and who isn't.

Your car is a sporty-looking, tops-down family cruiser, nothing more. And, by the way, that's what BMW intended it to be. You can be a pretend Andretti in your Porsche.

BJ

If memory does not betray me you leased a 328i e93 with no creature comforts as you call it. Biden has a 335is loaded with creature comforts, with absolutely different driving dynamics DNA than the 328i.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Bimmer App

Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.

I vowed to never listen to anything Motor Trend says after they named the Chevy Caprice car of the year in 1990. They've never gotten one cent of my money. Total joke.

Originally Posted by Chris90

Ouch. 335i is described as rubbery and not fun to drive.

I know Motor Trend is a rag, but jeez, losing to a C350? That's almost worse than losing to the ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/24/m...illac-ats-3-6/

I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want. This is the #1 reason that I left Audi for BMW. Audi offers the least horsepower in the class, no special colors, no body kit, no special wheels, no rear wheel drive, no option to delete sunroof, etc. Mercedes doesn't even offer a manual in the C250! The 328i may have softened a bit but it has also been improved in a million other ways. It is still the best sports sedan out there and you can choose which flavor you want instead of "one size fits all".

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

And yet again, E90 owners are heard from, trying to justify why they drive old, out of style used cars that any 15 year old can buy with his summer job money.

I have a great idea. Since you hate the F30 so much, don't buy one.

BJ

Originally Posted by MMME30W

Not sure of Mr. Liebermans credibility; he appears to believe BMWs are designed in Stuttgart and MBZ in Munchen (5:52)

At any rate, agree that the Cue system is ridiculously unsafe. Seriously Cadillac? A movie playing on the idrive screen is verboten in motion in the US, but a system that allows a driver to 'almost crash twice' is ok? Wtf?

Can't commenting on the driving dynamics component of his two-element review, having driven none of these cars. However Mr Lieberman does not describe the driving experience like other test reviewers do that are familiar with a track.

Not sure I would use this review as a basis of determining which of these cars to buy, myself.

Track comparisons are good up to a point but IMO the way the behave drive on public roads is far more relevant to the way these cars will be driven in the real world.

Good luck getting full trade on your car. The dealers are out of control these days. I was offered "rough book" value from four different dealers for my mint condition Audi A4. Evenfrom the Audi dealer to trade in on a new A4. I was told that the reason is that they all now go by "auction prices" instead of any book that is available to consumers. Such a joke.

Originally Posted by woodswatchco

I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car..

OMG our dirty little secret is out!

CA

Originally Posted by woodswatchco

I agree that all these guys that say the E90 is so much better than the F30 just don't have the cash for a new car. The new "lines" offer buyers the choice of what they want.

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

e46 for me was the pinacle of the of the 3 series, for me.

I've owned at least one of each from the E30 on. I had 2 E46's, including a 330i and an M3.
I don't think the E46 was the pinnacle at all. The E36 was lighter and had a more connected feel. My E30 was simple, very light, and a blast to drive. It came standard with limited slip diff. The I6 (post ETA) engine had some of the best mechanical sounds ever. My E46 330i had a lot of problems; all of them well documented by others on these boards. As a whole, I'd say it was a solid car, but kind of boring. My M3 was a great track car but poorly suited as a daily driver. My E92, one HPFP not withstanding, has been by far the most reliable of all the BMW's I've owned. I also found it capable of filling the shoes of both my old 330 and my M3. Not perfect, but pretty darned good. IMO, each generation has had its strength and weaknesses, but on the whole, the 3 series has moved forward and kept up with the times and mostly ahead of the competition throughout the years. I'm sure BMW will make appropriate adjustments to address the points of the MT comparo(such as they are). It isn't the first time a 3 series lost, and usually by the next model year, they were right back on top.