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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #201  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:08 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Precisely.

GM spends a lot of money advertising in the very same magazines that are suddenly giving unwarranted cred to the Cadillac brand after decades of trashing it.

Hmm. Wonder why.

BJ
We have a noted automotive journalist as a moderator here. Ask him if he thinks the writers for the major mags are bought off.

In any multi-car comparo one car is going to come in first and one is going to come in last and the rest will come somewhere between. The makers of all of the cars advertise heavily in the magazines. It seems whenever BMW wins one of these magazine comparisons the authors are praised here as visionary experts and whenever BMW losethe it can never be because the authors were unbiased and actually preferred another brand and their credibility will be attacked.

The Cadillac ATS has been rather universally praised by the automotive press. They are not saying it is perfect but they are saying it is a very good car and worthy competiton to the 3 Series. Based on that I would probably consider looking at one if I was on the market for a car in that segment. Would I actually buy one? I don't know but if it had been consistantly panned by Car and Driver, Automobile, Motor Trend, etc, I would probably not consider it as I have been reading those mags for years and they have always gotten me pointed in the right direction when I was car shopping.


CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-25-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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  #202  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:10 PM
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The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
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  #203  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:13 PM
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At speed, the E9X steering was very good, I enjoyed its accuracy and precision.

But maneuvering around parking lots and driveways, different story, I always felt it required way too much effort for a luxury car.

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  #204  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:14 PM
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The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
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  #205  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:24 PM
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The 3 series has essentially gone 'upmarket'. The 1 series will be replacing the 3 as the go-to for enthusiasts.
Although I was as vocal as anyone about the Pothole Explosions issue I have never seen a "I think my BMW has too much steering feel" of a "I wish my BMW leaned more on turns" post.

As I have said many times before performance and comfort are not mutually exclusive particularly with the technolgies that are available today. It is not necessary to sacrifice performance to move upscale in the market.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 11-26-2012 at 01:35 AM.
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  #206  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:24 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
Wasn't the G20 largely just a Sentra, or was it just the engine out of one? I liked the second gen with SR20det swaps.
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  #207  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:34 PM
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Wasn't the G20 largely just a Sentra, or was it just the engine out of one? I liked the second gen with SR20det swaps.
The original G20 was not a Sentra. The second generation, not so much. Both had the SR20d.
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  #208  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:36 PM
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Although I was a vocal as anyone about the Pothole Explosions issue I have never seen a "I think my BMW has too much steering feel" of a "I wish my BMW leaned more on turns" post.

As I have said many times before performance and comfort are not mutually exclusive particularly with the technolgies that are available today. It is not necessary to sacrifice performance to move upscale in the market.

CA
The technologies add weight though. Adding an array of sensors, and gadgets, and gizmo's has essentially caused the 3 series to become a mini-5. Adding all these creature comforts is why I think they have become mutually exclusive. BMW said that they're working on including CFRP in the future, but only after it's cost effective. I think that's when we'll see the 3er somewhat return to where it was before in terms of weight and performance. BMW has seen the 3 grow over the years, and that's why I think they've decided to bring back the 1 series and include a 2 series(aside from marketing purposes, of course)
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  #209  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:37 PM
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I'll be all over a four door 1er sedan!! I loved the size of my '96 Infiniti G20. Of course, one main reason I bought it was 'cause it was called a Japanese E36 3er.
Wouldn't the back seats be unusable in a 1 sedan? How usable were they in the G20? There were rumors flying around that we would see a 1 series Gran-Coupe of sorts.
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Last edited by -=Hot|Ice=-; 11-25-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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  #210  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:41 PM
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Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.

As far as payola in the auto mags, you all realize that all of those times BMWs were winning and we were going "hell yea!" the people on the other make forums were going on with their payola theories. It comes off as being a bad sport.
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Last edited by SARAFIL; 11-25-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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  #211  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:49 PM
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Lets keep in mind that Caddy engineers basically took a 3-series BMW and ripped it apart to figure out what makes it work and used it as their benchmark. I know they looked at the E46 extensively and I believe they also spent some time with the E90. They acknowledged that the BMW was THE car to mirror in this segment and it looks like they did a good job. It's certainly not perfect and I don't think I'd buy one just yet, but it looks like a solid attempt and we should all be willing to admit that. This was a big change from the days of Caddy building what they thought people wanted, which was then watered down by the bean counters. They actually took a serious attempt here at copying the formula that has worked for generations for BMW.
One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW. The odds of that are virtually nil. I think the fawning has much more to do with the auto rags amazement that Caddy did this well on their first attempt. We all know GM and Cadillac have made big claims to be after their competition in the past, only to fall flat on their face, revealing their lack of serious commitment.

Something else I noticed about the ATS, it feels smaller, tighter, more narrow inside than the E46 and the rear seat has noticeably less legroom. The rear seat itself is pretty comfortable and it does not feel particularly like you're in a hole. The excessively wide C pillars of the CTS, along with the sunken cushion, make its rear seat feel like sitting in a dark hole.
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  #212  
Old 11-25-2012, 05:52 PM
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Something else I noticed about the ATS, it feels smaller, tighter,ore narrow inside than the E46 and the rear seat has noticeably less legroom. The rear seat itself is pretty comfortable and it does not feel particularly like you're in a hole. The excessively wide C pillars, along with the sunken cushion, make the rear seat of the CTS feel like sitting in a dark hole.
e46 3 series:

Exterior Measurements
WIDTH5 ft. 8.5 in. (68.5 in.) HEIGHT4 ft. 7.7 in. (55.7 in.)
LENGTH14 ft. 8 in. (176 in.) WHEEL BASE8 ft. 11.3 in. (107.3 in.)

Interior Measurements
FRONT HEAD ROOM 38.4 in. FRONT LEG ROOM 41.4 in.
FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 54.4 in. REAR HEAD ROOM 37.5 in.
REAR LEG ROOM 34.6 in. REAR SHOULDER ROOM 54.2 in.

vs the ATS:


WIDTH5 ft. 11.1 in. (71.1 in.) HEIGHT4 ft. 7.9 in. (55.9 in.)
LENGTH15 ft. 2.8 in. (182.8 in.) FRONT TRACK4 ft. 11.5 in. (59.5 in.)
REAR TRACK5 ft. 0.9 in. (60.9 in.) WHEEL BASE9 ft. 1.3 in. (109.3 in.)


Interior Measurements
FRONT HEAD ROOM 38.6 in. FRONT HIP ROOM 53.0 in.
FRONT LEG ROOM 42.5 in. FRONT SHOULDER ROOM 55.2 in.
REAR HIP ROOM 52.3 in.
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  #213  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:20 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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The technologies add weight though. Adding an array of sensors, and gadgets, and gizmo's has essentially caused the 3 series to become a mini-5. Adding all these creature comforts is why I think they have become mutually exclusive. BMW said that they're working on including CFRP in the future, but only after it's cost effective. I think that's when we'll see the 3er somewhat return to where it was before in terms of weight and performance. BMW has seen the 3 grow over the years, and that's why I think they've decided to bring back the 1 series and include a 2 series(aside from marketing purposes, of course)
I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.
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  #214  
Old 11-25-2012, 06:33 PM
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I have read a lot of misinformed comments about the F30 being a mini-5 series. IMO that totally misses the point. The F30 is a more refined E90 that also has no choice but to get better fuel economy thus the EPS. In no way is the size and weight of the F30 remotely comparable to a current 5 series and you have to go back 2-3 generations to find a 5 series in a comparable size and even with that it's a larger wider car.

The F30 is a sport sedan without any doubt but has features that most people who can afford a $40-$60K car demand. Also, the F30 is minutely heavier than it's predecessor so that's a straw argument. Cars ave gained weight partly due to technology but more due to safety requirements. In a recent article on the VW GTI which weighs about 3100 pounds it was mentioned that the original from the early 1980's weighed 1950 pounds. Amazing but the new GTI is much more capable and much, much safer.
Maybe I should of clarified, The F30 has become a 5 series in terms of refinement. All the added refinement has caused the car to lose what enthusiasts like about the car. The F30 right now is about the size of the E39. That's what BMW wants. The market that use to buy that same 3 series has grown older, and BMW is now tending towards their needs. Add the safety equipment and all the gadgetry, and you have a somewhat heavy 'sports' sedan. This will all hopefully change once CFRP starts being used, but I'm thinking that's the next generation 3 series.

There are other ways of saving fuel, without having to add EPS, though. Take a look at Mercedes, and their new AMG cars. They sticking to naturally aspirated V8's, but adding things like active cylinder deactivation to save fuel and meet fuel requirements. If they're going to at least include EPS, do it properly, take a page out of Porsches book and the new Carrera's. So far, it's the best EPS I've driven. Still not there, and lacks that tiny bit of feel through the wheel, but you know where the wheels are and what they are doing. All it takes is a little R&D but BMW isn't willing to spend that money because they'll give up their #1 spot in the luxury segment.
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  #215  
Old 11-25-2012, 07:30 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Maybe I should of clarified, The F30 has become a 5 series in terms of refinement. All the added refinement has caused the car to lose what enthusiasts like about the car. The F30 right now is about the size of the E39. That's what BMW wants. The market that use to buy that same 3 series has grown older, and BMW is now tending towards their needs. Add the safety equipment and all the gadgetry, and you have a somewhat heavy 'sports' sedan. This will all hopefully change once CFRP starts being used, but I'm thinking that's the next generation 3 series.

There are other ways of saving fuel, without having to add EPS, though. Take a look at Mercedes, and their new AMG cars. They sticking to naturally aspirated V8's, but adding things like active cylinder deactivation to save fuel and meet fuel requirements. If they're going to at least include EPS, do it properly, take a page out of Porsches book and the new Carrera's. So far, it's the best EPS I've driven. Still not there, and lacks that tiny bit of feel through the wheel, but you know where the wheels are and what they are doing. All it takes is a little R&D but BMW isn't willing to spend that money because they'll give up their #1 spot in the luxury segment.
Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:54 PM
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Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
I agree that refinement is not a bad thing. Cars that combined performance and refinement have been around for years and have traditionally been called Grand Touring (GT) cars. The days of pure sports cars with no power steering or brakes, no air conditioning, roadster tops that had to be assembled, etc. ended over 40 years ago and if BMW or anyone else were to introduce one today it would have limited market appeal. That being said a modern high performance car like an M3 with all of its creature comforts and refinement will get around a track faster than the highest performance pure sports cars of 50 years ago.

So once again I will maintain that refinement and comfort do not preclude performance and good driving dynamics.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:56 PM
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Refinement is not a bad thing. Remember that 99% of 3 series sold in the US are to non-enthusiasts and for an enthusiast all they need to do is get the sport line and leave it in sport mode. That's the beauty of the F30, you can leave in comfort and cruise serenely or dial it up and have your harder edged sport sedan.

Regarding Porsche EPS, I haven't driven a new 911 or Boxster but some reviews I've read have not been 100% kind to their EPS.
The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:36 PM
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One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW.
Most auto mags did not say ATS bested F30, even the above MT reviewer put the ATS 2.0T manual behind the F30 328i manual. This time he compared the bigger engine and auto trans of the three brands, and put the ATS 3.6 on top.

On the other hand, several car-of-the-year contests judged by auto journalists organizations either named the ATS Luxury Car of the Year (in Canada), or simply Car of the Year (in the US), after large number of them reviewed hundreds of cars. So it was actually in non-enthusiast-type contests where the ATS bested its competitions.

ATS also received Car of the Year awards from several non-auto mags such as Popular Mechanics and Esquire magazine.

I would not just dismiss all of the awards above simply because you claim you are more credible. Some of them might be questionable, but I don't think you can dismiss them all.

Last edited by dtc100; 11-25-2012 at 08:39 PM.
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  #219  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:39 PM
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The Porsche EPS isn't great, but it is good. You get some sort of feedback. Go for a drive, just to see what it's like you will enjoy it.

Yo HI - who makes Porsche's steering feedback unit?
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  #220  
Old 11-25-2012, 08:51 PM
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One reason of many I think it is stretching it pretty far to credit Cadillac in their initial attempt with having bested BMW. The odds of that are virtually nil. I think the fawning has much more to do with the auto rags amazement that Caddy did this well on their first attempt. We all know GM and Cadillac have made big claims to be after their competition in the past, only to fall flat on their face, revealing their lack of serious commitment.
I think the explanation is pretty simple.

The ATS is the first rear wheel drive car with a tight suspension to launch in this segment in decades which makes it an enthusiast magazine's wet dream. To ignore or disregard it would be enthusiast heresy, to praise it or laud it would be proper reciprocation because it supports the message that they're trying to foster between the staples.

16 Magazine did this for a decade in the mid 60's. The Beatles vs. Herman's Hermits. Davy Jones vs. David Cassidy. New Kids On The Block vs. NSYNC.

BJ
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  #221  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:00 PM
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Sadly, every sales person I drove with for any BMW test drive do confirm that potential buyers are more concerned about rear view cameras and the features of the NAV vs how the car drives. Guess that's what sells and is shaping BMW, sadly we will all be driving Lexus type cars in the future...
Cameras and tech aside, the F30 corners like any other 3er past or present.
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  #222  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:01 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Does she have the standard or sport suspension?

From what I have heard from a few sources they fixed the Pothole Explosion issue at the expense of increased body roll.
I wouldn't be surprised if the early run flats significantly compounded the problem. The latest generation of run flats allegedly make themselves barely more noticeable than regular tires (but I suspect under certain conditions the do get more noticed).
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  #223  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:06 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
One other comment regarding the topic of this thread, having driven the F30 3er and the current C Class there are only two reasons one could possibly describe the C Class as having better driving dynamics and characteristics, in any way, than a 3er. The person would either have to be under the influence of crack or have a purposeful, biased bone to pick with the 3er. The C Class simply does not handle or drive as well as the 3er. Period. This reviewer's statement to the contrary eliminates his credibility.
You have to listen carefully. He never said that. In fact, he kind of glossed over very quickly how the BMW can probably turn the best numbers.

He focused on feel and fun factors. Not actual performance. At least that's how I remember it. I am not going to wait another few minutes watching the video again
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  #224  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:12 PM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
You have to listen carefully. He never said that. In fact, he kind of glossed over very quickly how the BMW can probably turn the best numbers.

He focused on feel and fun factors. Not actual performance. At least that's how I remember it. I am not going to wait another few minutes watching the video again
The C Class doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, feel better or more fun to drive. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
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  #225  
Old 11-25-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I think the explanation is pretty simple.

The ATS is the first rear wheel drive car with a tight suspension to launch in this segment in decades which makes it an enthusiast magazine's wet dream. To ignore or disregard it would be enthusiast heresy, to praise it or laud it would be proper reciprocation because it supports the message that they're trying to foster between the staples.

16 Magazine did this for a decade in the mid 60's. The Beatles vs. Herman's Hermits. Davy Jones vs. David Cassidy. New Kids On The Block vs. NSYNC.

BJ
One thing the ATS lacks is the premium interior feel, though. It can be Awesome to drive, but I don't want to hear creaks and rattles as I'm carving down a canyon road, BMW's have rattles here and there,but it takes awhile for them to show and everything feels well put together even if it doesn't look that way. It feels like it's quality.
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Last edited by -=Hot|Ice=-; 11-25-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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