Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)

F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:03 PM
Silververtu Silververtu is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: US of A
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 2013 550i M Sport
Go with the Multi-contour seats. It is the main reason I am getting a 5 series, although they aren't as huggy as sport seats but it's very comfortable. I also love the nappa leather but I didn't get it because I want a brown interior. Wish they have come in brown like in the 6 series.

I am not too sure about the MT as I didn't get to drive a MT F10. However, I had a MT X5 as a loaner earlier this year and it was a little bit weird driving such a big and refined car with a stickshift. It reminded me of driving a MT pickup truck back then.
__________________
2013 BMW 550i M Sport SAT

Gone But Not Forgotten:
2006 AUDI 2.0T A4 Avant, 2007 BMW Z4 3.0si Roadster, 2006 BMW M Roadster

Last edited by Silververtu; 11-27-2012 at 01:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:11 PM
darius7 darius7 is offline
Registered User
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 14
Mein Auto: 328i
My dealer offered 535i $500 over invoice minus loyalty and Holiday cash incentives but wants to charge $699 dealer service fee. What's up with that? Is that common on orders?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-27-2012, 01:57 PM
oneon3putts oneon3putts is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 131
Mein Auto: 2013 535
Quote:
Originally Posted by darius7 View Post
My dealer offered 535i $500 over invoice minus loyalty and Holiday cash incentives but wants to charge $699 dealer service fee. What's up with that? Is that common on orders?
No, ordered 4 cars and never had that "fee". I think it's pure profit.
__________________

2013 535i ED: 12/7/12
2010 550i ED: 2/15/10 Retired
2008 550i Retired
2006 530i Retired

Last edited by oneon3putts; 11-27-2012 at 01:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Decboy's Avatar
Decboy Decboy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Southern California
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 420
Mein Auto: 2013 BMW 550i
Quote:
Originally Posted by darius7 View Post
My dealer offered 535i $500 over invoice minus loyalty and Holiday cash incentives but wants to charge $699 dealer service fee. What's up with that? Is that common on orders?
$699 dealer service fee to order a car? That's total BS. Ordering a car isn't really ordering a car from scratch for a dealer. They just take an existing dealer allocated vehicle thats in queue for production and modify it to your specifications before it goes into production. The status will change to priority 1 meaning it's a sold vehicle. It's really nothing special that the CA or the dealer needs to do. We ordered our 2013 F10 back in July at invoice plus customer loyalty $750 rebate. Shop it!

Your dealer seems a bit shady. Offering holiday incentives to lure in customers and hit them with the $699 service fee to order a car. We've ordered cars from MB and BMW and never had this charge.
__________________
2013 BMW X5 35i
Alpine White | Cinnamon Brown | M Sport

2013 BMW 550i
Titanium Silver | Black | M Sport

Last edited by Decboy; 11-27-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:20 PM
tturedraider's Avatar
tturedraider tturedraider is offline
Freedom isn't free!!
Location: Chicago, north shore (via Tennessee & Texas)
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,034
Mein Auto: '06 Sonora/Beige 330i :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by darius7 View Post
My dealer offered 535i $500 over invoice minus loyalty and Holiday cash incentives but wants to charge $699 dealer service fee. What's up with that? Is that common on orders?
Welcome to Florida. Don't know what's going on down there, but dealer fees like that are VERY common there. That doesn't mean you can't negotiate hard.
__________________

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

2006 330i Sonora w/ ActiveAutoWerke flash tune :-)
2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

** Join the BMW CCA www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral & you could win a one day ///M Driving School!! **
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:32 PM
darius7 darius7 is offline
Registered User
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 14
Mein Auto: 328i
Thanks

Thanks guys. Sales person said it's to prep
car for you when it's on the lot. To clean
and gas it lol.
Waiting for other dealers in the area to make
their offer.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:52 PM
miamiboyca's Avatar
miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,668
Mein Auto: F10 6MT
Multi-Contour are a must!/

Frankly, I love the Manual transmission in my F10. I do not have much of an issue with Idrive as this is true in all cars nowadays. Its not exactly a short shifter, but it is buttery smooth.
__________________
2013 535i Space Grey, Biege, M-SPort, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, Luxury Seating, PDC, 6MT ED-10/11/2012 - PCD Redelivery-12/14/12
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:54 PM
miamiboyca's Avatar
miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,668
Mein Auto: F10 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by darius7 View Post
Thanks guys. Sales person said it's to prep
car for you when it's on the lot. To clean
and gas it lol.
Waiting for other dealers in the area to make
their offer.
That is crap! I dealt with the same stuff when I lived in Florida, until I started going through my credit union - then poof - no more dealer fees. Its a total ADD ON.


Deal with a sponsor, then you won't have these issues.
__________________
2013 535i Space Grey, Biege, M-SPort, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, Luxury Seating, PDC, 6MT ED-10/11/2012 - PCD Redelivery-12/14/12
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:16 PM
darius7 darius7 is offline
Registered User
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 14
Mein Auto: 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
That is crap! I dealt with the same stuff when I lived in Florida, until I started going through my credit union - then poof - no more dealer fees. Its a total ADD ON.


Deal with a sponsor, then you won't have these issues.
Thank you Sir!
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:26 PM
mr29 mr29 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 574
Mein Auto: bmw
so what's a decent dealer prep fee to pay? or is none even possible?

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:33 PM
Keyser Soze's Avatar
Keyser Soze Keyser Soze is offline
just like that, he's gone
Location: Northern California
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,459
Mein Auto: 2013 535
Seriously just wait a week and order from Adrian in the ATL. Eff your locals if they won't budge.
__________________
2013 F10 535i M-Sport, Sophisto Grau, 6-speed MT
2011 E90 335i Sport, Jet Black, Sport Auto, Performance Edition
2002 E46 330i Sport, Jet Black, 5-speed MT, lots of upgrades
2001 E46 330Ci Sport, Steel Grey, 5-speed MT....and more

Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-27-2012, 03:38 PM
miamiboyca's Avatar
miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,668
Mein Auto: F10 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr29 View Post
so what's a decent dealer prep fee to pay? or is none even possible?

Sent from my XT557 using Bimmer App
A reasonable fee is $0.00. That is reasonable, its a BS mark up.

If you can't wait - reach out to Grep Poland, he did my ED and my car is registered in FL.
__________________
2013 535i Space Grey, Biege, M-SPort, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, Luxury Seating, PDC, 6MT ED-10/11/2012 - PCD Redelivery-12/14/12
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Decboy's Avatar
Decboy Decboy is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Southern California
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 420
Mein Auto: 2013 BMW 550i
Quote:
Originally Posted by darius7 View Post
Thanks guys. Sales person said it's to prep
car for you when it's on the lot. To clean
and gas it lol.
Waiting for other dealers in the area to make
their offer.
Dealer prep fee? Haha, I would have tip the sales guy personally just for telling me that. $699 for them to hose down the car and put some tire shine on the tires. The BMW Vehicle Delivery Centers (VDC) does all the prep work before it gets delivered to the respective dealerships. There are VDCs throughout the U.S for West, East and Midwest coast dealerships.
__________________
2013 BMW X5 35i
Alpine White | Cinnamon Brown | M Sport

2013 BMW 550i
Titanium Silver | Black | M Sport
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-27-2012, 04:54 PM
tturedraider's Avatar
tturedraider tturedraider is offline
Freedom isn't free!!
Location: Chicago, north shore (via Tennessee & Texas)
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,034
Mein Auto: '06 Sonora/Beige 330i :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decboy View Post
Dealer prep fee? Haha, I would have tip the sales guy personally just for telling me that. $699 for them to hose down the car and put some tire shine on the tires. The BMW Vehicle Delivery Centers (VDC) does all the prep work before it gets delivered to the respective dealerships. There are VDCs throughout the U.S for West, East and Midwest coast dealerships.
There are four VDCs, each located at one of the ports where BMWs arrive from Germany - New Jersey, Baltimore, MD, Brunswick, GA, and Port Hueneme, CA.
__________________

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

2006 330i Sonora w/ ActiveAutoWerke flash tune :-)
2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

** Join the BMW CCA www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral & you could win a one day ///M Driving School!! **

Last edited by tturedraider; 11-27-2012 at 05:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:20 PM
miamiboyca's Avatar
miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,668
Mein Auto: F10 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
There are three VDCs, each located at one of the ports where BMWs arrive from Germany - New Jersey, Brunswick, GA, and Port Hueneme, CA.
I am pretty sure there is also one in near Longbeach CA.
__________________
2013 535i Space Grey, Biege, M-SPort, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, Luxury Seating, PDC, 6MT ED-10/11/2012 - PCD Redelivery-12/14/12
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:38 PM
tturedraider's Avatar
tturedraider tturedraider is offline
Freedom isn't free!!
Location: Chicago, north shore (via Tennessee & Texas)
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,034
Mein Auto: '06 Sonora/Beige 330i :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
I am pretty sure there is also one in near Longbeach CA.
Not unless they just opened it and didn't publicize it. Only Oxnard/Port Hueneme. There is a fourth one in Baltimore that I forgot. I added it.
__________________

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

2006 330i Sonora w/ ActiveAutoWerke flash tune :-)
2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

** Join the BMW CCA www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral & you could win a one day ///M Driving School!! **
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:46 PM
miamiboyca's Avatar
miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Dallas, TX
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,668
Mein Auto: F10 6MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Not unless they just opened it and didn't publicize it. Only Oxnard/Port Hueneme. There is a fourth one in Baltimore that I forgot. I added it.
YUP, That's it. The port is called Long Beach or sometimes Port of LA.
__________________
2013 535i Space Grey, Biege, M-SPort, Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, Luxury Seating, PDC, 6MT ED-10/11/2012 - PCD Redelivery-12/14/12
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-27-2012, 05:58 PM
cordoor's Avatar
cordoor cordoor is offline
cor door sedan
Location: Utah
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 845
Mein Auto: 2013 550i xDrive
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyser Soze View Post
Eff your locals if they won't budge.
I did this just today, in fact. My order is being placed tomorrow with an out-of-state dealership. $700 to ship the vehicle to me when it arrives. My local stealership was over $1,500 more even after factoring in the cost to ship.

-Corey
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:26 PM
Baquir Baquir is offline
BimmerLover
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 138
Mein Auto: 2012 528xi
To the OP: I used to be in Orlando and that one dealer that ur talking abt is useless and are used to people paying the prices that the dealership wants due to its monopoly in the area. Also most people who buy cars in that area are either super rich or families with old money. Got complete opposite reaction when I moved to Chicago. Listen to what other posters are saying. Either contact board sponsors or shop around in large metro areas like Miami for instance. Good luck!
__________________


Current: 2012 528xi. Delivery date 03/13/2012.
Dark Graphite Metallic / Oyster-Black interior. Cold Weather / Premium / Technology pkg. BMW Apps. Rear fold down seats.

Prior: 2005 530i. Cold weather/Premium Pkg
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-27-2012, 07:28 PM
tturedraider's Avatar
tturedraider tturedraider is offline
Freedom isn't free!!
Location: Chicago, north shore (via Tennessee & Texas)
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,034
Mein Auto: '06 Sonora/Beige 330i :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
I did this just today, in fact. My order is being placed tomorrow with an out-of-state dealership. $700 to ship the vehicle to me when it arrives. My local stealership was over $1,500 more even after factoring in the cost to ship.

-Corey
Rather than spend that $700 to ship the car, take delivery at the Performance Center in South Carolina and spend the money on a little road trip vacation. Fly there (with a companion if you'd like), BMW picks you up at the airport, pays for dinner, puts you up at the Marriott, feeds you breakfast, picks you up at the hotel, gives you a half day of driving instruction, feeds you lunch, has a professional delivery specialist deliver your car to you in the afternoon.
__________________

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

2006 330i Sonora w/ ActiveAutoWerke flash tune :-)
2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

** Join the BMW CCA www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral & you could win a one day ///M Driving School!! **
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:12 PM
cordoor's Avatar
cordoor cordoor is offline
cor door sedan
Location: Utah
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 845
Mein Auto: 2013 550i xDrive
Quote:
Originally Posted by tturedraider View Post
Rather than spend that $700 to ship the car, take delivery at the Performance Center in South Carolina and spend the money on a little road trip vacation. Fly there (with a companion if you'd like), BMW picks you up at the airport, pays for dinner, puts you up at the Marriott, feeds you breakfast, picks you up at the hotel, gives you a half day of driving instruction, feeds you lunch, has a professional delivery specialist deliver your car to you in the afternoon.
What a fantastic idea! Thanks for the tip. I will check it out.

My wife would love to visit South Carolina. I have been there and driven through the Appalachians and it is nothing short of spectacular.

I tried to talk her into ED but she wouldn't budge. We still have young kids at home and she didn't want to leave them for the time we'd be gone (we could do 5-6 days with a nanny watching them but my wife doesn't want to do much more than that). So perhaps this would be a nice consolation prize :-)

-Corey
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:27 PM
tturedraider's Avatar
tturedraider tturedraider is offline
Freedom isn't free!!
Location: Chicago, north shore (via Tennessee & Texas)
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,034
Mein Auto: '06 Sonora/Beige 330i :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cordoor View Post
What a fantastic idea! Thanks for the tip. I will check it out.

My wife would love to visit South Carolina. I have been there and driven through the Appalachians and it is nothing short of spectacular.

I tried to talk her into ED but she wouldn't budge. We still have young kids at home and she didn't want to leave them for the time we'd be gone (we could do 5-6 days with a nanny watching them but my wife doesn't want to do much more than that). So perhaps this would be a nice consolation prize :-)

-Corey
Glad you like the idea. There's a twisty mountain road over there called The Tail of the Dragon. In the Best of Bimmerfest section there's a PCD (Performance Center Delivery) forum.
__________________

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -- Geo. Orwell

2006 330i Sonora w/ ActiveAutoWerke flash tune :-)
2004 330i ZHP Imola/NB - missed
2000 328i TiAg - gone but not forgotten

** Join the BMW CCA www.bmwcca.org
member #388003 - Use me as a referral & you could win a one day ///M Driving School!! **
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:11 PM
Runon MD1 Runon MD1 is offline
Runon MD1
Location: Rancho Santa Fe, CA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 433
Send a message via AIM to Runon MD1
Mein Auto: 335i Sedan
2013 535 ordering

[QUOTE=svc;7214717]Hi all,

I'm planning on leasing a 535i and I have a few questions about the options and pricing before heading to the dealer. Any help would be much appreciated.

Secondly, I am considering European Delivery and I'm wondering if I still have some wiggle room over the sticker price at the dealer (after getting approx. $3,600 off on ED). I'm in Central Florida. How much room do I have to negotiate if any?
************************************************** ****************
OK...listen closely (to me and the others who have responded to your post).

If you order from your dealer, make sure that he at least sends you flowers and buys you dinner, seeing as you are being bent over.

Be smart and order from a Board sponsor. Several reliable names have been mentioned. All are excellent, whether for European Delivery, Performance Center Delivery...whatever works for you. Most will come in somewhere around $500 or so over invoice, depending on availability, etc., and will make your transaction both fair and seamless.

However, if you feel really bad about denying your dealer the several thousand dollars you will save by ordering through a sponsor, you can always send a check to me in that amount. I don't charge any add-on, prep or document fees, and don't sell rust protection, paint protection, etc. I would appreciate it!

Good luck. Please listen to those who have taken the time to save you, and not only figuratively!

Richard
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:41 PM
cordoor's Avatar
cordoor cordoor is offline
cor door sedan
Location: Utah
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 845
Mein Auto: 2013 550i xDrive
What Richard says is very true and I just experienced it.

Try Jeff Martz at Husker BMW in Lincoln Nebraska. He offered (which I accepted) $909/month (tax not included) with 0 down on 39 months, 10K miles lease for a 550 xDrive build that MSRP's around $84,500. He came in very close to invoice *before* the 2K holiday incentive and 750 loyalty. This was his first quote and it was his last because there was no need for me to push him lower.

Or try Greg Poland if you're closer to him (California). I sent him Jeff's offer (I heard back from Jeff first so naturally I was going to go with Jeff all else being equal) and Greg graciously wrote back saying it was a great deal and I should take it. He didn't try to paint numbers to dupe me into going with him instead. He was just flat out honest. Greg didn't get this deal, but of course in 3 years if Greg is around I will contact him again because of this.

I would do a deal with either of these guys (this time I am doing a deal with Jeff).

I have heard of other board sponsors in the south. I don't know who they are because I am in Utah.

Both of these experiences were completely the opposite of the experience I had with my local stealership. Before contacting Jeff or Greg, I went by the local. Their best offer was somewhere around $1,220/month on 12K miles with 2K down. Then I haggled them to roughly $1,100. Then I sent them Jeff's quote. Then they came back, very arrogantly mind you like I was putting them out and they were giving me the moon, at $948/month for 10K miles. They ultimately got close after much pain, but I was fed up of course. (And still, they were over $1,500 away). Also during all of the discussions with the local, they paint numbers and don't talk clear about things. They have to be fuzzy because, unlike Greg who was honest, they want to dupe you into getting your business even though they can't compete.

All that matters is the capital cost (price you agree on for the vehicle), money factor, and residual.

Both Jeff and Greg, and I assume any other friend of the board, will give you these numbers straight up plus the monthly and you can simply do the math yourself on bmwconfig.com to verify and then play around.

So: Do exactly what Richard says. I now know this from personal experience.

-Corey
__________________
2013 550i xDrive | Jet Black | Venetian Beige | Dark Red Sycamore | M Sport | Dynamic Handling | Sport Auto Trans
2008 535xi | Jet Black | Cream Beige | Burl Wood | Sport



See, when the Government spends money, it creates jobs; whereas when the money is left in the hands of Taxpayers, God only knows what they do with it. Bake it into pies, probably. Anything to avoid creating jobs. - Dave Barry

Last edited by cordoor; 11-27-2012 at 09:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:12 PM
svc svc is offline
Registered User
Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 58
Mein Auto: 2013 535i M-Sport MT
Thank you Richard and Corey for looking out for me! I emailed Greg Poland and got a response back. I will most likely get his offer tomorrow. Couple of questions about ordering from an out of state dealer.

Will I ever need to show up in person at the dealership and can I use my credit card to pay the upfront charges without actually showing up at the dealership?

Also, I remember reading somewhere on the forums that BMW makes my second lease payment on ED. Is this true no matter where I buy from because the local CA doesn't know (or at least he says he doesn't) about this.

Again, thank you everyone who posted in my thread - you guys are the nicest bunch I ever encountered on an Internet forum!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms