BMW hopes 1 series makes entry-level splash

Automotive News Europe / July 12, 2004


BMW says the 1 series will be sold in the U.S., but it won't say when.

MUNICH, Germany -- BMW AG thinks its new 1-series small sedan can lure buyers from the Volkswagen Golf and other mass-market cars in Europe.

The 1 series is the latest entry in an entry-level premium segment that includes the Audi A3, Mercedes-Benz A class, Alfa Romeo 147 and BMW's own Mini brand.

BMW believes the 1 series will compete directly with the Audi A3 and Alfa 147, and also tempt buyers from the top-of-the-line VW Golf. BMW believes the A class is not a direct competitor.

The 1 series will go on sale in Europe in September. The base model four-door 116i with a 115-hp, 2.0-liter gasoline-powered engine costs $24,300 - $995 more than a four-door Golf with a 115-hp engine.

"I'm sure that got Wolfsburg's attention," says Bernd Hassenjuergen, a 1-series project team member.

Few 1-series vehicles are likely to be sold without air conditioning or alloy wheels, which push the price above $27,000.

BMW says it will sell the 1 series in the United States but won't say when. The current hatchback model is offered only with four-cylinder 2.0-liter gasoline and diesel engines. The engine bay is large enough for any engine from BMW's 3 series range.

"We have an explicit six-cylinder strategy in the U.S.," Hassenjuergen says. "We think a hatchback would, in the long run, possibly hurt our brand image in the U.S."

Originally Posted by sp330i

Automotive News Europe / July 12, 2004

The 1 series will go on sale in Europe in September. The base model four-door 116i with a 115-hp, 2.0-liter gasoline-powered engine costs $24,300 - $995 more than a four-door Golf with a 115-hp engine.

BMW says it will sell the 1 series in the United States but won't say when. The current hatchback model is offered only with four-cylinder 2.0-liter gasoline and diesel engines.

In an unusual move for BMW, the 116i, like the Golf it's compared to, has actually been given a 1.6 litre engine. The 120i, 120d and (detuned) 118d have two-litre engines.

The engine bay is large enough for any engine from BMW's 3 series range.

Indeed - almost every press road test/first impression has noted the abundant space under the bonnet.

"We have an explicit six-cylinder strategy in the U.S.," Hassenjuergen says. "We think a hatchback would, in the long run, possibly hurt our brand image in the U.S."

...giving more grist to the rumour mill that BMW will have a separate 1er/2er line for the US and other markets where BMW is a premium brand, featuring exclusively six-cylinder engines. The "M1" moniker doesn't mean much outside of Europe; the name could well be revived for a North America-only top-end model.

Originally Posted by sp330i

Automotive News Europe / July 12, 2004
The 1 series will go on sale in Europe in September. The base model four-door 116i with a 115-hp, 2.0-liter gasoline-powered engine costs $24,300 - $995 more than a four-door Golf with a 115-hp engine.

I just checked www.bmw.fr for prices of the 1-Series in France.The base 116i is priced at 21,600 Euro. With today's exchange rate of 1.239 Euro for a Dollar, that makes the price of the 116i US $26,763

Even though BMWs are typically priced cheaper in the US than they are in Europe, I think the current Euro-Dollar exchange rate is one of the primary reasons why BMW will not bring the 1-Series to the US anytime soon.

FrenchBoy

Originally Posted by FrenchBoy

I just checked www.bmw.fr for prices of the 1-Series in France.The base 116i is priced at 21,600 Euro. With today's exchange rate of 1.239 Euro for a Dollar, that makes the price of the 116i US $26,763

Even though BMWs are typically priced cheaper in the US than they are in Europe, I think the current Euro-Dollar exchange rate is one of the primary reasons why BMW will not bring the 1-Series to the US anytime soon.

FrenchBoy

Have you seen this: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66076

$57k US is almost 2x as much as I paid for my 325iT.

Originally Posted by Kaz

Have you seen this: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66076

$57k US is almost 2x as much as I paid for my 325iT.

A fully-specced 325i Touring from BMW GB would clock in even higher. Without going through the motions, I think £43-44k is about right, fully loaded (all taxes and reg included however). And then there's Individual...

why put a 6 cylinder engine in there? It's only gonna increase cost..

i was hoping that they would keep the car relatively inexpensive and target college students.... i remember when they first announced it they said they were going to compete with the focus.. i don't know of any focus' going for $26k.. throw in a 6 cylinder engine and that price can easily jump to $30k

they should keep it a 4 banger and target those "lower end" cars... the focus, the vw golf 1.8.. etc.. etc.. just thought of it.. they should do the engine and pricing scheme similar to mini cooper.. but then again, if they did, that would steal away mini cooper sales..

Originally Posted by Iniquity

why put a 6 cylinder engine in there? It's only gonna increase cost..

i was hoping that they would keep the car relatively inexpensive and target college students.... i remember when they first announced it they said they were going to compete with the focus.. i don't know of any focus' going for $26k.. throw in a 6 cylinder engine and that price can easily jump to $30k

Wait a second, you can buy a 325i with sport package and xenons for 27-28k. My bro-in-law got his last year for 27k.

So why would an e46 with a 2.5 be cheaper than the 1 with a 2.5?

they should keep it a 4 banger and target those "lower end" cars... the focus, the vw golf 1.8.. etc.. etc.. just thought of it.. they should do the engine and pricing scheme similar to mini cooper.. but then again, if they did, that would steal away mini cooper sales..

I'd expect prices to start at like 25k with a 2.5 and not much else. That'd be slightly pricey than say a jetta/gti 1.8t, about in line with a loaded VR6, and a touch above cars like the loaded Mazda3.

Figure 25k base, 32-33k loaded up.

"We think a hatchback would, in the long run, possibly hurt our brand image in the U.S."

They could rework the front end to get rid of the double kidney and sell it as a Mini. Mini after all is a BMW much like a Scion is a Toyota and it would complement the FWD mini well.

What do you think about that?

Originally Posted by shabbaman

"We think a hatchback would, in the long run, possibly hurt our brand image in the U.S."

They could rework the front end to get rid of the double kidney and sell it as a Mini. Mini after all is a BMW much like a Scion is a Toyota and it would complement the FWD mini well.

What do you think about that?

Mini is traditionally FWD (and the new Mini is FWD in keeping with tradition).

BMW is traditionally RWD. The 1-series is RWD.

As ugly as it is, the 1-series is a BMW not a Mini.

Originally Posted by TD

Mini is traditionally FWD (and the new Mini is FWD in keeping with tradition).

The only reason the original Mini was FWD was because of packaging. I don't think that Mini's mission statement says anywhere that it has to build FWD cars.
As far as tradition - Anywhere but not in America. In fact, until recently Mini hasn't been sold in the US for the better part of 40 years. As it pertains to America, there is no Mini tradition.

Originally Posted by TD

BMW is traditionally RWD. The 1-series is RWD.

If this were 2000 you'd be correct however the X3 and X5 contradict that statement and both cars (especially the X5) are considered bimmers down to the core. The only reason that bimmers are rear wheel drive is because up until now it's proven to be the best system for ride, handling and performance. However, systems such as XDrive are proving to be superior to traditional rear wheel drive and we'll probably see these systems in more bimmers over the next several years.

Originally Posted by TD

As ugly as it is, the 1-series is a BMW not a Mini.

Why NOT sell the 1 series as a Mini (if it will not be brought over otherwise)? This way it won't have ANY impact on the rest of the BMW lineup in terms of resale or prestige and that was the point to my thread originally. BMWNA won't have to foot the bill for the 4/50 maintenance plan.

The Mini is an upscale small car and so is the 1 series. Since one car is FWD and one car is RWD they will not really compete with each other however they will both compete very strongly with any of the other cars in their category. Currently there is only one car in the Mini lineup, the Cooper, and how long will that last for? Eventually Mini will need to carry another car in the lineup.

And BTW, not all of us think the 1 series is ugly. True, it's no E46 but what I see is the perfect commuter car. If they sold this car here for $22000 I'd get one with a stick and sport package and drive to work with a grin from ear to ear.

shabbaman, you're right. The 1er would be a great commuter car. This whole time I"ve been thinking of it more as a fun and good handling kind of car. Hmm, yet another reason to want the 1er when it comes.

I bet BMWNA's MINI division would gag at the though of having to market a 1er based Mini. They have a very good looking car and I'm sure they want nothing to do with BMW's recent horrow shows.

Originally Posted by shabbaman

The only reason the original Mini was FWD was because of packaging. I don't think that Mini's mission statement says anywhere that it has to build FWD cars.

What "mission statement" is this?

As far as tradition - Anywhere but not in America. In fact, until recently Mini hasn't been sold in the US for the better part of 40 years. As it pertains to America, there is no Mini tradition.

Sure - after all Saab is selling re-nosed Subarus and trucks as the 9-2X and 9-7, only in America. But the sales volumes of those cars would be much higher than a 1er-based RWD MINI, and all the redesign and retooling that would be necessary are probably far too high, even given the size of the US market. I'm not knocking the idea - I think a RWD MINI Coupe might actually work, given the right visual clues.

However, systems such as XDrive are proving to be superior to traditional rear wheel drive and we'll probably see these systems in more bimmers over the next several years.

?

xDrive is not remotely superior to RWD, and it doesn't belong in road cars. It adds weight, complexity and inefficiency. It belongs in mild off-roaders. Given the presece of the X3 and X5, it's less likely than ever that BMW would build regular 3er and 5er cars with 4WD.

The Mini is an upscale small car and so is the 1 series. Since one car is FWD and one car is RWD they will not really compete with each other...

I don't think even enthusiastic customers will necessarily care which end the car is driven from. I would think the size, and lack of space in the rear of both, will be more in people's minds.

Currently there is only one car in the Mini lineup, the Cooper, and how long will that last for? Eventually Mini will need to carry another car in the lineup.

Actually there are six: hardtop and ragtop versions of the One, Cooper and Cooper S. There are also works-sanctioned JCW derivatives of the Cooper cars. And pictures have been spotted of a "woodie" MINI Traveller, although I hope the wood is optional!

It's all moot. It's much cheaper to build a MINI than a 1er. If you want MINI prices, it has to be FWD on the current MINI platform (which itself is so expensive that BMW is not making much money, despite the heroic sales volumes). If you want a RWD BMW-based MINI with five-link suspension and RWD, you will have to pay 1er prices for it. And that won't ever happen.

I don't think even enthusiastic customers will necessarily care which end the car is driven from

I guess you were referring to the compact size cars here.

Originally Posted by Alex Baumann

I guess you were referring to the compact size cars here.

I know I don't speak for all enthusiasts, but after transmission choice, drive wheels are the most important consideration when I'm making a vehicle decision.

Originally Posted by andy_thomas

What "mission statement" is this?

Sure - after all Saab is selling re-nosed Subarus and trucks as the 9-2X and 9-7, only in America. But the sales volumes of those cars would be much higher than a 1er-based RWD MINI, and all the redesign and retooling that would be necessary are probably far too high, even given the size of the US market. I'm not knocking the idea - I think a RWD MINI Coupe might actually work, given the right visual clues.

?

xDrive is not remotely superior to RWD, and it doesn't belong in road cars. It adds weight, complexity and inefficiency. It belongs in mild off-roaders. Given the presece of the X3 and X5, it's less likely than ever that BMW would build regular 3er and 5er cars with 4WD.

I don't think even enthusiastic customers will necessarily care which end the car is driven from. I would think the size, and lack of space in the rear of both, will be more in people's minds.
Actually there are six: hardtop and ragtop versions of the One, Cooper and Cooper S. There are also works-sanctioned JCW derivatives of the Cooper cars. And pictures have been spotted of a "woodie" MINI Traveller, although I hope the wood is optional!

It's all moot. It's much cheaper to build a MINI than a 1er. If you want MINI prices, it has to be FWD on the current MINI platform (which itself is so expensive that BMW is not making much money, despite the heroic sales volumes). If you want a RWD BMW-based MINI with five-link suspension and RWD, you will have to pay 1er prices for it. And that won't ever happen.

Andy, I respect your opinions as I would respect anyone's opinions here however with regard to your comment about people not caring which end is driving the car is a little short sighted. I don't know about how things are in England but here in the states, especially in the Northeast people are VERY sensitive about which end drives the car. Maybe they're not very pragmatic regarding the joy of a rear drive car but they definately draw a distinction between FWD and AWD vs RWD especially with respect to the weather.

On the subject of xDrive, it IS better and it's only in it's first generation. Yes, it does add weight and complexity but so does valvetronic and if you had that in your car would you want to give it up for a valve train? But claiming that it's inefficient, that's just incorrect. The system allows for a 0-100% variance in drive wheels. Matched with stability control it has the ability to supply power to any individual wheel that needs it. If it's put into a car like an M3 could you imagine the potential slalom numbers it would generate?

When you were talking about there being 6 Minis I know you were kidding. Right?

As for pricing, I can't speak for England with it's complicated (at least to us yanks) pricing structures, but in the US the 1 series would fall in line with the Cooper S.

I don't know if it's cheaper to build a Mini or a 'comprable' bimmer. I know the engines in the Mini are outsourced from Chrysler. The chassis is derived from an E46.

Originally Posted by shabbaman

If they sold this car here for $22000 I'd get one with a stick and sport package and drive to work with a grin from ear to ear.

It would be on my short list for a practical/haulin' car.

Originally Posted by Alex Baumann

I guess you were referring to the compact size cars here.

Oh yes definitely. Golf, A3 and perhaps BMW drivers tend to worry about image, build and equipment first. Also with the lower-power models, whether the car is front- or rear-drive matters less, since power oversteer (one of the primary, er, benefits of RWD ) is very difficult to come by.

Originally Posted by shabbaman

Andy, I respect your opinions as I would respect anyone's opinions here however with regard to your comment about people not caring which end is driving the car is a little short sighted. I don't know about how things are in England but here in the states, especially in the Northeast people are VERY sensitive about which end drives the car. Maybe they're not very pragmatic regarding the joy of a rear drive car but they definately draw a distinction between FWD and AWD vs RWD especially with respect to the weather.

Fair enough - weather considerations probably do make a significant contribution to the choice. While the north of England probably gets similar winter weather to the NE US, the south of England gets settled snow once every five years or so. However for drivers of small premium cars (Golf, A3, MINI etc.) it is practically a given that it will be FWD; whether or not RWD is an important selling point is about to be tested, after all!

On the subject of xDrive, it IS better and it's only in it's first generation.

Why is 4WD better than RWD, irrespective of need?

Yes, it does add weight and complexity but so does valvetronic and if you had that in your car would you want to give it up for a valve train?

I do have it in my car. I wouldn't give it up because it makes the engine considerably more efficient than it would be otherwise.

But claiming that it's inefficient, that's just incorrect.

I must have mis-read. Are you saying that a car with xDrive is just as efficient as one without? For that to be the case the extra hardware must weigh nothing, and introduce no other parasitic losses.

The system allows for a 0-100% variance in drive wheels. Matched with stability control it has the ability to supply power to any individual wheel that needs it. If it's put into a car like an M3 could you imagine the potential slalom numbers it would generate?

It wouldn't make any difference. 4WD does not, per se, increase grip or provide the means to increase lateral G in a constant-throttle situation. Audi thinks it does, and plays on this misunderstanding, which is why people tell me their 4WD A3 (or TT, or whatever) can go round corners faster than my 2WD BMW. What they can do is fire out of wet or bumpy corners with more security.

When you were talking about there being 6 Minis I know you were kidding. Right?

I suppose . There are two distinct bodystyles, though, and three factory engines per bodystyle.

As for pricing, I can't speak for England with it's complicated (at least to us yanks) pricing structures, but in the US the 1 series would fall in line with the Cooper S.

Only if the cost to build is the same...

I don't know if it's cheaper to build a Mini or a 'comprable' bimmer.

... and the BMW 1 series is a lot more expensive than the MINI to build. As you point out, the MINI's engines are from a JV with Chrysler, and the engines are built in a country where labour charges are a lot lower (Brazil). But the chassis has an E36/46 derived rear end, and this makes is quite expensive. Even with the premiums attached to optional equipment, and the greatly increased volumes, BMW still isn't making that much money on the MINI.

Originally Posted by FrenchBoy

I just checked www.bmw.fr for prices of the 1-Series in France.The base 116i is priced at 21,600 Euro. With today's exchange rate of 1.239 Euro for a Dollar, that makes the price of the 116i US $26,763

You forgot to remove 19.6% saletax. That makes it 18,060 €, which is about $22,600 as of today.

Originally Posted by robg

I bet BMWNA's MINI division would gag at the though of having to market a 1er based Mini. They have a very good looking car and I'm sure they want nothing to do with BMW's recent horrow shows.

They could call it the Maxi Mini.

Originally Posted by andy_thomas

Why is 4WD better than RWD, irrespective of need?

Traditionally it's not. However xDrive does not work in the traditional sense. It is a very flexible system that works in conjunction with the stability control system. Here's an excerpt from a BMWWorld article
"BMW's xDrive reacts faster than other systems because it not only makes use of the information obtained from the wheel sensors, which signal when any of the wheels are spinning, but also data collected from Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) system sensors. Yaw rate, the information regarding rotational movement of the vehicle itself, and the steering wheel position both supply important data concerning the current situation. This enables xDrive to distribute drive power ideally and at any given moment between the front and rear wheels, for instance during cornering, thereby significantly minimizing under- or oversteer."

I must have mis-read. Are you saying that a car with xDrive is just as efficient as one without? For that to be the case the extra hardware must weigh nothing, and introduce no other parasitic losses.

No of course there's a cost to xDrive. It does weigh more and it will result in extra fuel used. However, given the purpose of xDrive it WILL help a car perform better because of it's added technology.

It wouldn't make any difference. 4WD does not, per se, increase grip or provide the means to increase lateral G in a constant-throttle situation. Audi thinks it does, and plays on this misunderstanding, which is why people tell me their 4WD A3 (or TT, or whatever) can go round corners faster than my 2WD BMW. What they can do is fire out of wet or bumpy corners with more security.

For traditional 4WD I agree. However xDrive will increase lateral G because it's able to assist by providing power to a given wheel when that particular wheel needs it. It will also help in a slalom where lateral weight transfer may cause loss of grip in a non xDrive car.

Andy, I love a good Rear drive car as much as you but xDrive is a remarkable and innovative system that's indicative of BMW's technology (which is one of the reasons I bought my car) and one that (unlike iDrive) has the ability to make our driving pleasure better.


Getting back to the Mini, Andy, in US culture it's quite common to put different lipstick on the same pig.
GM and Ford have several versions of the same cars selling under different brands.
Toyota rebrands several of their cars and trucks as Lexuses
Nissan does the same thing with Infiniti their trucks and cars (the last gen Maxima as an example)

Honda's a little different. They sell your Accord here as the Acura TSX and this is the kind of rebranding I'm talking about with Mini and BMW. Obviously I'm 'What iffing' the 1 series as a Mini but a few years down the line when the Mini brand gets settled down and needs a shot of adrenaline, why NOT bring over a small rebranded BMW? You don't have to absorb development cost and you don't have to tool up for it in England. They can be build right in Germany or Austria or South Africa or China or wherever in conjunction with their BMW counterparts.

Personally I would love to see the 1 series brought over. It's a great little car (especially if they stuff the 2.5 in it) to drive and if the only thing keeping it from coming to the US is the fact it's a BMW then sell it as a MINI (or a Honda for that matter). I don't care, just put it in my hands.

Originally Posted by shabbaman

However xDrive will increase lateral G because it's able to assist by providing power to a given wheel when that particular wheel needs it. It will also help in a slalom where lateral weight transfer may cause loss of grip in a non xDrive car.

But in a constant-throttle situation, when the car is neither accelerating nor decelerating... I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one!

Honda's a little different. They sell your Accord here as the Acura TSX and this is the kind of rebranding I'm talking about with Mini and BMW. Obviously I'm 'What iffing' the 1 series as a Mini but a few years down the line when the Mini brand gets settled down and needs a shot of adrenaline, why NOT bring over a small rebranded BMW?

It's a fine idea - I mooted the idea of a BMW-based MINI Coupe earlier - but the noises coming from BMW regarding the manufacturing costs for the 1er and the MINI don't bode well. Although the MINI brand could probably stand it, a 1er-based MINI would be prohibitively expensive. Having said that, BMW is planning to build 750,000 1ers a year, almost doubling its output of BMW-branded cars; this would be *more* than the number of 3ers whose technology the 1 will have used first (five-link rear axle and so on). If that sort of volume doesn't bring the price, BMW will have to re-think the amount of engineering it puts into its cars if it can't first reduce the costs. And that wouldn't be a good thing.