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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #26  
Old 12-05-2012, 05:51 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braumin View Post
Back when I was an automotive tech, we used to have an intake cleaning kit that we could run on a car. You mounted a sprayer over the throttle body and injected over about 20 - 30 minutes a cleaning solution mist while the engine was running. It was similar to this: http://www.autogeek.net/3m-fuel-system-kit-08963.html Similar but it was a professional rig and not this hokey spray can. It really did a great job especially with the port fuel injection cars since no fuel would flow through the intake manifold.

Now I don't believe this would clean the valves once they are sufficiently dirty, but does anyone (DSXMachina for instance since he seems to have a lot of knowledge on this subject) know if this would be a good preventative measure? I'd have no problems running this every 30,000km or something. It wasn't overly expensive and was similar in price to a fuel injector cleaning.

What would clean coked oil you wouldn't want to use.

Walnuts are king!
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  #27  
Old 12-05-2012, 07:26 AM
Leekay07 Leekay07 is online now
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Walnuts are king but I`ll make do with elbow grease.
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  #28  
Old 12-05-2012, 07:37 AM
Leekay07 Leekay07 is online now
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OK because you are all wondering what my dealers response to this crap enjoy this.


Dear Mr. Kay,



In reference to the BMW survey comments, BMW engineering was contacted by our master technician in regards to the proper diagnosis of your vehicle (PUMA case# 53017183).



I most certainly did not misinform you in regards to the replacement of the coil and O2 sensor. I specifically stated that basic issues need to be resolved before proceeding further. As explained by you, the Albany dealer installed 3 injector which didn't resolve the misfire issue in which you were extremely dissatisfied with.
After replacing the coil and 02 sensor the misfire on # 6 cylinder was resolved and the #5 cylinder returned. Our technician dedicated over two hours of swapping coils and injector's, which by the way is the approved factory procedure of isolating the issue and you were not charged for.

As for the massive amount of sludge build up, how would you know this without removal of the manifold?? The vehicle has 139k miles on it and the issue is isolated to one cylinder only. If there is a carbonizing issue on one cylinder than there most likely is an internal engine problem that caused it!
The service advisor quoted you $120.00 for the leak down test and 1/2 the labor for removing the manifold and inspecting the cylinder head ports.

Our service department does not diagnose vehicles by means of Google or other internet forums. This department and dealership have the highest BMW customer satisfaction index in our market and we simply do not perform walnut blasting unless we are positive that this will be a long term fix and not simply a patch repair.

If you should have any further questions or concerns, please telephone my office. Thank you.

Regards
********
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  #29  
Old 12-05-2012, 07:40 AM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
Remove and Replace the cyl head [with valves] for valve bench cleaning. Might be useful if one were to port the valves, check spray patterns, etc. Excellent for inspection - there's some validity to it, but it's thin ice.
My Bentley manual says that in order to R&R the head on a 335i the engine must be removed. I thought I misread it at first but it is right there in black and white.
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  #30  
Old 12-05-2012, 07:48 AM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Originally Posted by Leekay07 View Post
Walnuts are king but I`ll make do with elbow grease.
I did mine with elbow grease too and it worked great. My symptoms are gone. However, I am going to buy the intake port tool for hooking the shop vac from BMW and rig my own walnut blaster. The elbow grease method is the 50-75% solution which is enough to make your symptoms (misfire, uneven acceleration, etc.) go away. But you will never get all of the carbon out and are probably looking at doing it again in about 20-30k miles. Walnut blasting is much more throrough and probably will get you about 60-70k miles before you need to do it again.
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  #31  
Old 12-05-2012, 08:34 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by Leekay07 View Post
OK because you are all wondering what my dealers response to this crap enjoy this.

Dear Mr. Kay,

In reference to the BMW survey comments, BMW engineering was contacted by our master technician in regards to the proper diagnosis of your vehicle (PUMA case# 53017183).

I most certainly did not misinform you in regards to the replacement of the coil and O2 sensor. I specifically stated that basic issues need to be resolved before proceeding further. As explained by you, the Albany dealer installed 3 injector which didn't resolve the misfire issue in which you were extremely dissatisfied with.
After replacing the coil and 02 sensor the misfire on # 6 cylinder was resolved and the #5 cylinder returned. Our technician dedicated over two hours of swapping coils and injector's, which by the way is the approved factory procedure of isolating the issue and you were not charged for.

As for the massive amount of sludge build up, how would you know this without removal of the manifold?? The vehicle has 139k miles on it and the issue is isolated to one cylinder only. If there is a carbonizing issue on one cylinder than there most likely is an internal engine problem that caused it!
The service advisor quoted you $120.00 for the leak down test and 1/2 the labor for removing the manifold and inspecting the cylinder head ports.

Our service department does not diagnose vehicles by means of Google or other internet forums. This department and dealership have the highest BMW customer satisfaction index in our market and we simply do not perform walnut blasting unless we are positive that this will be a long term fix and not simply a patch repair.

If you should have any further questions or concerns, please telephone my office. Thank you.

Regards
********

.
  • That IS odd - which cyl, and were the others really free of coke? You might ask them if they know what a boroscope is.
  • What internal engine issue is that, exactly?
  • Har! It's never been anything BUT a patch repair!

Is your respondent running for public office?


.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 12-05-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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  #32  
Old 12-05-2012, 08:40 AM
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OK because you are all wondering what my dealers response to this crap enjoy this.

Post to Yelp - don't forget!
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  #33  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Leekay07 Leekay07 is online now
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5 inlets cleaned one more to do. I had to run all over to get bits to clean it. I mean the carbon build up is just disgusting

I sent the service manager a response telling him he knows full well the service history of my car has its always been serviced by BMW meaning he had better access to records of my car than I did and he can see my cars never been walnut blasted since new so it should not take an internet diagnosis to come up with what is actually the issue.
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Last edited by Leekay07; 12-05-2012 at 10:57 AM.
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  #34  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:43 PM
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kunal_D kunal_D is offline
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I'm wondering how much a good ol' fashioned Italian Tune done regularly would help to lessen the carbon build up... Wishful thinking?
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  #35  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Leekay07 Leekay07 is online now
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would probably make it worse The hotter it gets the more buildup forms
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  #36  
Old 12-05-2012, 01:50 PM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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Originally Posted by kunal_D View Post
I'm wondering how much a good ol' fashioned Italian Tune done regularly would help to lessen the carbon build up... Wishful thinking?
If you look at Burger Motorsports, http://www.burgertuning.com/BMW_335_oil_catch_can.html, they have a product called a catch can that is supposed to prevent it. Other than something like that, there is nothing you can do to prevent it.
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  #37  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:01 PM
unrealii unrealii is offline
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Originally Posted by jburke4689 View Post
If you look at Burger Motorsports, http://www.burgertuning.com/BMW_335_oil_catch_can.html, they have a product called a catch can that is supposed to prevent it. Other than something like that, there is nothing you can do to prevent it.
The catch can will reduce it, not prevent it
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  #38  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:11 PM
jburke4689 jburke4689 is offline
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The catch can will reduce it, not prevent it
that's what I figured. I just plan on cleaning it every 30-40k miles. It only takes a few hours.
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  #39  
Old 12-05-2012, 02:21 PM
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fun2drive fun2drive is offline
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Understand where this oil vapor comes from and you can understand why it is there.
It comes from both the engine running under vacuum and boost which because of the PCV BMW designed allows some to bypass the that valve and end up on the valves coking them.
Rob makes an improved PCV that works better to seal the valve under boost
www.rbturbo.com
but the problem is also caused by normal vacuum when not under boost which I am not aware of anyone has solved.
I ordered Robs PCV improved valve and will install it when I clean my intake valves.

I have read of some using a 7th injectors to try and reduce this buildup but I can't see how this can work.
GM uses DI engines as well and doesn't have this issue but Audi and VW certainly do so it isn't limited to BMW.

I got to believe BMW will come up with a better solution to this but time will tell....
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  #40  
Old 12-05-2012, 03:02 PM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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I wonder if they have addressed this in the F30?

I wonder if they have addressed this in the F30?
My guess would be no .
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  #41  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:08 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by fun2drive View Post
GM uses DI engines as well and doesn't have this issue....

How do they do it?

HINT?

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Last edited by CALWATERBOY; 12-05-2012 at 09:22 PM.
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  #42  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:28 PM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY View Post
How do they do it?

Attachment 352095
I am of an engineering bent and tend to look for simpler solutions..

So the 328i and other DI cars don't have anywhere near the same rate of buildup..

Thought processes:
. For some reason the TT N54 vents more from the crankcase
. Something is special about BMW's OEM oil (unlikely as 328i models are ok)

Wild guesses:
. Temperature is higher, forcing more oil/air mixture from the crankcase into the intake manifold
. Boosted combustion means some blow-back into the intake valve area
. Increased temperatures near combustion chamber leads to carbon buildup on intake

Do we know of anyone with a non turbo N54 that's had this issue? It's smaller volume of cars but at a bet none have had the issue
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Last edited by MP3_E46; 12-05-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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  #43  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:35 PM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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One of many links via Google. I suggest some (Cal?) read them all and provide us with an Executive Summary

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-...-adopters.html

I found this snippet in a comment "This is further compounded on my friends turbo car which has a lot of pressure in the crank case from blow-by, which then pushes oil though the PCV system into the intake"
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Last edited by MP3_E46; 12-05-2012 at 09:36 PM.
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  #44  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:46 PM
anE934fun anE934fun is offline
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Originally Posted by MP3_E46 View Post
One of many links via Google. I suggest some (Cal?) read them all and provide us with an Executive Summary

http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-...-adopters.html

I found this snippet in a comment "This is further compounded on my friends turbo car which has a lot of pressure in the crank case from blow-by, which then pushes oil though the PCV system into the intake"
The executive summary of the reason for build-up with the N54/5 motors and not the N52 motors is that the N52 is NOT direct injection, while the N54/5 ARE direct injection. With the N52, the gas is injected BEFORE the intake valves, so detergents added to the gas can do their thang and clean up the crud from the blow-by. N54/5 has gas injected directly into the combustion chamber, so no chance for detergents to clean before being combusted.
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  #45  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:48 PM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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e90 328 doesn't have DI

e90 328 doesn't have DI (if you have an N52 its not DI. Neither are the 330/325)
Only the turbo and I think the new f3x 4 turbo have DI
All N54's are turbo .
One of the solutions some manufactures are trying is duel injectors on in the intake and
one in the cylinder . Ford says they can adjust valve timing so it doesn't happen.
Google DI carbon deposit problem.

Last edited by ctuna; 12-05-2012 at 09:57 PM.
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  #46  
Old 12-05-2012, 09:54 PM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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Originally Posted by anE934fun View Post
the N52 is NOT direct injection, while the N54/5 ARE direct injection
Thanks! Indeed Google confirms that

So my latest Gen Prius is not DI and neither in my E93. In know my latest gen MX-5 isn't but it's very engine old technology (Ford/ Mazda MZR)

Not all N54's are turbo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N54
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Last edited by MP3_E46; 12-05-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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  #47  
Old 12-05-2012, 10:19 PM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by MP3_E46 View Post
I am of an engineering bent and tend to look for simpler solutions..

So the 328i and other DI cars don't have anywhere near the same rate of buildup..

We'll sub 335i....

So. N54 would have to blow a mighty wind t'not be able to do gas/liq separation. Really I don't see what the problem is. Whatta we got?
  • BMW's in-head cyclonic separation
  • Aftermarket impingement filters

Still gotta problem.

Vapor phase component coking on high temp surfaces but destroyed in combustion? Condensing filter needed?
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  #48  
Old 12-06-2012, 05:53 AM
Leekay07 Leekay07 is online now
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anyone know if I can drop the metal pan without issues on the bottom of the car? I dropped a bolt from the throttle body and I called a dealer who said the bolt is special order so I have to drop the metal pan but it looks like it probably has some weight and is going to make putting it back in place with only me working on the car some problem
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  #49  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:05 AM
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MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
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anyone know if I can drop the metal pan without issues on the bottom of the car? I dropped a bolt from the throttle body and I called a dealer who said the bolt is special order so I have to drop the metal pan but it looks like it probably has some weight and is going to make putting it back in place with only me working on the car some problem
Someone will likely post about dropping the cover/pan. As a backup you could locate the bolt here http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/ then put the part number into Google and likely find somewhere who'll next day deliver it from stock.
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  #50  
Old 12-06-2012, 06:42 AM
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CALWATERBOY CALWATERBOY is offline
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Originally Posted by Leekay07 View Post
anyone know if I can drop the metal pan without issues on the bottom of the car? I dropped a bolt from the throttle body and I called a dealer who said the bolt is special order so I have to drop the metal pan but it looks like it probably has some weight and is going to make putting it back in place with only me working on the car some problem

What metal pan? If you mean the plastic aero shield below the engine, involves removing about 20 bolts; comes right off. 4 jack stands or lift needed.
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