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  #1  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:50 AM
ziff73 ziff73 is offline
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damage done at dealer

Dropped 3 month old M5 at dealer for 1,200 mile break-in service this morning. Just got to work and received call that another one of their customers backed into my car. ARGH!

They say they are collecting the drivers insurance details. Is the dealership also partially responsible since they are in custody of my vehicle? Should i demand a loaner from dealership while my car is being fixed?

They are recommending i get the car fixed elsewhere, is this typical?

anything else i am missing here? please help!
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  #2  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:00 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is online now
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Originally Posted by ziff73 View Post
Is the dealership also partially responsible since they are in custody of my vehicle?
I would doubt it - legally. I recommend that you review what you signed when you dropped off the car. There is probably and exclusion in there about that, where they aren't responsible for anything beyond negligence. They may provide a loaner as a courtesy.

Another option would be to get a loaner paid for through insurance of the person who hit you. You can call their insurance company and see if they will provide one (I've done that - they provided a Benz, a comparable car). Last resort would be to go through your own insurance and have them claim the other party (in this scenario, expect a rental within your rental allowance).

I recommend not focusing on the loaner right now - but rather on looking at what damage was done, and making sure a good shop is going to do the work. And after that, how quickly the work can be done (well). The loaner should be a secondary concern. You may not necessarily want to just rely on your CA as a go between, but rather talk directly to the shop.

I'd usually say everything will be fine, but don't want to give you a false sense of security. Pay attention to what gets done on your baby .
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  #3  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:20 PM
vern vern is offline
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Try getting the work done at a BMW Certified Body Shop.
Good luck
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  #4  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:46 PM
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Get the work done at the BEST QUALIFIED shop you can find. Don't believe that "BMW certified" means anything...

Consider a Diminished Value claim..look it up. That m5 with a carfax report will lose $5000-10000, just due to that history.

I'd refuse to accept the car unless they provide a WRITTEN report of the damage.

Most repair orders give the dealer some release of liability in the event of damage...the key is 'were they negligent?"... See what they write...

If it is leased, who cares?
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Last edited by ard; 12-10-2012 at 02:13 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:50 PM
cchrisv cchrisv is offline
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There is a few questions you need to ask. Was your car parked when hit or was a tech driving it when it was hit? If it was parked, was it parked properly by the dealership? How much damage was done to your car?
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  #6  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cchrisv View Post
There is a few questions you need to ask. Was your car parked when hit or was a tech driving it when it was hit? If it was parked, was it parked properly by the dealership? How much damage was done to your car?
Someone BACKED into it (according to the OP). What difference would it make if someone was driving it, or if it was parked upside down in the middle of a highway? If you hit a parked car it's your fault, even more so if you're in reverse. So I don't see how it could be anyone's fault other than the driver in question (if that's what you're getting at)

Not saying it's a bad idea to ask around about what happened, however it does seem pretty clear cut. Someone hit him, here's their info.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dannyc9997 View Post
Someone BACKED into it (according to the OP). What difference would it make if someone was driving it, or if it was parked upside down in the middle of a highway? If you hit a parked car it's your fault, even more so if you're in reverse. So I don't see how it could be anyone's fault other than the driver in question (if that's what you're getting at)

Not saying it's a bad idea to ask around about what happened, however it does seem pretty clear cut. Someone hit him, here's their info.
If they were parked at a strip club, one might conclude the dealer failed to excercize due caution with the OPs vehicle....



Op... Interesting story on m5bosrd, dealer wrecked an m5. Thread went thousands of posts, over a million reads, picked up by jalopnik, etc..went to trial...IMO the dealer will not do anything for you, if it really was another customer....
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Last edited by ard; 12-10-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:55 PM
ziff73 ziff73 is offline
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It was another customer. They took down insurance for me.

Their policy has already accepted liability.

Picking up car now from dealer to take to body shop for estimate.

It's not "major" work so not sure how much the diminished value claim could be.

I'll post again when get more deets.

Thanks for the info folks.
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  #9  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Get the work done at the BEST QUALIFIED shop you can find. Don't believe that "BMW certified" means anything...

Consider a Diminished Value claim..look it up. That m5 with a carfax report will lose $5000-10000, just due to that history.

I'd refuse to accept the car unless they provide a WRITTEN report of the damage.

Most repair orders give the dealer some release of liability in the event of damage...the key is 'were they negligent?"... See what they write...

If it is leased, who cares?
I can only speak from experience. I had 4 different repairs done by JMK BMW Certified Body Shop and every one came out perfect. On the other hand getting work done by"BEST QUALIFIED" shop" the body work looked very good but in 6 months or so there was a difference in paint color.
As far as diminished value thats a touchy subject depending on state you live in and insurance company. If it gets into CARFAX your sunk. I lost $4000 on my 2005 530i. Depending on the cost of the repair it could be worth the cost of the repair made by you to stay out of the report and not getting into Carfax.Therefore no diminished value
cheers
vern
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Last edited by vern; 12-10-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:12 PM
ziff73 ziff73 is offline
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So apparently the car is too new and it's not in the body shop's system.

They're checking with dealer tomorrow.

New bumper, light and quarter panel (maybe). So far.... Hopefully that's it.
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2012, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
If they were parked at a strip club, one might conclude the dealer failed to excercize due caution with the OPs vehicle....

Fair point, but hey if I was the oil change kid with keys to an M5, I'd argue the customer failed to exercise due caution when he handed me the keys!!
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:20 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by ziff73 View Post

It's not "major" work so not sure how much the diminished value claim could be.

.
This is the problem with DV...it isnt the actual damage, it is just the mere fact there WAS a repair. Pure DV, is when the car is fixed "perfectly", but jsut the history will cause buyers to avoid.

Here is the irony: the "BMW certfied body shop" will repair it, good as new. But you'll take it back to the same dealer in two years to trade in for a new car and that dealer will say, "Best I can do is $XXXX due top the report of an accident"

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
I can only speak from experience. I had 4 different repairs done by JMK BMW Certified Body Shop and every one came out perfect. On the other hand getting work done by"BEST QUALIFIED" shop" the body work looked very good but in 6 months or so there was a difference in paint color.
As far as diminished value thats a touchy subject depending on state you live in and insurance company. If it gets into CARFAX your sunk. I lost $4000 on my 2005 530i. Depending on the cost of the repair it could be worth the cost of the repair made by you to stay out of the report and not getting into Carfax.Therefore no diminished value
cheers
vern
My point is to find a great shop. And to not blindly assume "BMW certified" is ANY kind of a guarantee. Some are good

DV is indeed touchy. NO insurer will help you. Even your own insurer will not help go after the other guy....all insurers fight it any way they can. If you are looking for DV, you will be fighting on your own. In some states they have a BS 'formula'... just useless, especially for relatively small damage and high value cars. They've adopted this formula to cap their losses, but last I looked it was voluntary, not a rule nor policy.

Once an insurer has it, the claim is ON carfax.

Also, DO NOT assume that if it isnt on carfax it wont show up later.... I know someone bought a car from a dealer, clean carfax... then the accident shows up months later.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:27 PM
chrischeung chrischeung is online now
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"BMW certified" is ANY kind of a guarantee.
I was told something different. I was told that BMW Certified will definitely use BMW new parts. Whereas someone like GEICO will use non-BMW parts when they can be sourced and are cheaper. The first part comes from their website. The second was what GEICO told me when they wanted to repair my car.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I was told something different. I was told that BMW Certified will definitely use BMW new parts. Whereas someone like GEICO will use non-BMW parts when they can be sourced and are cheaper. The first part comes from their website. The second was what GEICO told me when they wanted to repair my car.
+1
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I was told something different. I was told that BMW Certified will definitely use BMW new parts. Whereas someone like GEICO will use non-BMW parts when they can be sourced and are cheaper. The first part comes from their website. The second was what GEICO told me when they wanted to repair my car.
Wait, are you seriously telling me that the BODY SHOP POLICY will 'effectively overrule' the terms of the insurer who is authorizing the repair!?!?!? That's nonsense. You seem to be combining what you were told by one body shop, with something on a website from an INSURER. that's comparing apples to ...hamburgers.

Yes, an experienced body shop can fight your insurer to avoid used parts or sub-standard aftermarket stuff. This is what a "great shop" does. if they have a 'BMW certified' sign over the door or not.

I personally think it is short sighted to simply rely on this marketing gimmick as the sole criteria for choosing a shop. BMWs have some crappy paint, and many BMW owners are clueless as to what a good paint job really is....many just want to kniw, 'will i get a loaner, and will my car be shiny?' ....taking a car to one of these mills and assuming it will be perfect can be risky.

There is SO much more that 'BMW parts' that goes into a proper repair. Prep, Blending, color sanding, orange peel, clouding, clear coating, buffing,betcha, etc, etc.....


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+1
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Vern, don't be such a fanboi.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:48 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is online now
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Wait, are you seriously telling me that the BODY SHOP POLICY will 'effectively overrule' the terms of the insurer who is authorizing the repair!?!?!?
No - you misunderstand. Your post alludes to the fact that there is no difference between a BMW shop and one that is not. I'm just pointing out that I think that statement is untrue, even if only on that 1 point. Did I say anything other than that? Why would you try and read something else into it?

Personally, when leasing (perhaps a little different if buying), I am more comfortable with a BMW certified shop. That is because when I return the car to the dealership, and the work was done by them, they would have a tougher time claiming any damages. If they claim, I point to the warranty - which their body shop is responsible for. Sure, legally they likely are separate entities, but I would doubt they would want to get into any hassles with complaints to BMWNA or social issues. Note - I am not saying anything about the work quality of a BMW certified shop vs another one, so please don't try and read that into my post.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Wait, are you seriously telling me that the BODY SHOP POLICY will 'effectively overrule' the terms of the insurer who is authorizing the repair!?!?!? That's nonsense. You seem to be combining what you were told by one body shop, with something on a website from an INSURER. that's comparing apples to ...hamburgers.

Yes, an experienced body shop can fight your insurer to avoid used parts or sub-standard aftermarket stuff. This is what a "great shop" does. if they have a 'BMW certified' sign over the door or not.

I personally think it is short sighted to simply rely on this marketing gimmick as the sole criteria for choosing a shop. BMWs have some crappy paint, and many BMW owners are clueless as to what a good paint job really is....many just want to kniw, 'will i get a loaner, and will my car be shiny?' ....taking a car to one of these mills and assuming it will be perfect can be risky.

There is SO much more that 'BMW parts' that goes into a proper repair. Prep, Blending, color sanding, orange peel, clouding, clear coating, buffing,betcha, etc, etc.....




Vern, don't be such a fanboi.
Not yours for sure!!!!!!!!!!!
cheers
vern
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
No - you misunderstand. Your post alludes to the fact that there is no difference between a BMW shop and one that is not. I'm just pointing out that I think that statement is untrue, even if only on that 1 point. Did I say anything other than that? Why would you try and read something else into it?

Personally, when leasing (perhaps a little different if buying), I am more comfortable with a BMW certified shop. That is because when I return the car to the dealership, and the work was done by them, they would have a tougher time claiming any damages. If they claim, I point to the warranty - which their body shop is responsible for. Sure, legally they likely are separate entities, but I would doubt they would want to get into any hassles with complaints to BMWNA or social issues.
+1
cheers
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:33 AM
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This thread is full of win.

OP: Sorry about your car. Definitely look into Diminished Value. Especially on a car like yours.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
I was told something different. I was told that BMW Certified will definitely use BMW new parts. Whereas someone like GEICO will use non-BMW parts when they can be sourced and are cheaper. The first part comes from their website. The second was what GEICO told me when they wanted to repair my car.
This was my experience too. I would go with a shop through your dealer with someone where the dealer will honor the warranty on those repairs.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
No - you misunderstand. Your post alludes to the fact that there is no difference between a BMW shop and one that is not. I'm just pointing out that I think that statement is untrue, even if only on that 1 point. Did I say anything other than that? Why would you try and read something else into it?

Personally, when leasing (perhaps a little different if buying), I am more comfortable with a BMW certified shop. That is because when I return the car to the dealership, and the work was done by them, they would have a tougher time claiming any damages. If they claim, I point to the warranty - which their body shop is responsible for. Sure, legally they likely are separate entities, but I would doubt they would want to get into any hassles with complaints to BMWNA or social issues.
i guess we both misunderstand.

I am saying that having the "BMW Certified" label does not GUARANTEE any better job. It may be, it may not. It is only one of many factors one should use. For example, there are shops that do far better work and will not deal with the AHs that drive BMWs. I have one shop I use for my TT that just refuses insurance work. His paint and finish work is perfect, and he refuses to argue with insurnce over allowances..... for example.

Back to the ONE aspect you say separates the shops: is it your contention that a "BMW certified shop" will never use anything other than BMW parts, and if you have GEICO, GEICO will automatically pay for BMW parts? I'm confuised by this, as GECIO doesnt HAVE any shops- they jsut pay the bills. So who pays when a GEICO insurer car goes to a BMW Certified shop?

If you are saying "Well, the BMW certified shop will argue with GECIO and establish a justification for using the BMW parts"...in which case, I'll say that every repair I've ever done has used OE parts and they werent at "certified" shops. (Except one, actually, no parts just paint.) The question of how an insurer can force you (or the shop) to use OE versus aftermarket parts is independent of the shops' certification. IMO

Now,if this is one of those "All other things being equal, which would you choose?" questions. Sure, I'd go with the BMW logo. But all things are never equal. And posts that simply provide singular 'go certified' datum as a discriminator can cause others to choose poorly as they dont know what else to look for.

You do bring up an excellent point about lease. If a shop screws up a repair- the clouding in the metallic is off, or a body panel has more gap than OE, if it was a BMW certified shop you are 'indemnified'...but this is a legal/conceptual issue, the job still can be substandard, its just that BMW will handle this organizationally.

Finally, just chosing a "BMW Certified shop" reminds me of when people say "Oh, I'll buy from a BMW dealer since I am protected if something is wrong with the car once I drive off the lot- afterall, they dont want to risk the (bad publicity, damage to reputation, ire of BMWNA) if they dont step up"... most here on the forum know the falacy of that logic. The time to do your homework, check references, and express you level of attention to the job quality will be before the job is complete. No matter what shop you use. Shops will pay more attention to someone who engages with them on aspects of the paint match and job quality. IMO.


A
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is online now
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Back to the ONE aspect you say separates the shops: is it your contention that a "BMW certified shop" will never use anything other than BMW parts, and if you have GEICO, GEICO will automatically pay for BMW parts? I'm confuised by this, as GECIO doesnt HAVE any shops- they jsut pay the bills. So who pays when a GEICO insurer car goes to a BMW Certified shop?
GEICO has their own shops, or ones where they provide GEICO with preferential rates/treatment - I think they market it as ARX - http://www.geico.com/claims/autorepa...epair-promise/.

BMW shops will always use new BMW parts where possible. Obviously if you have a very old car, say 20 years, that may not be possible, or if a part is unavailable. That is a policy across all BMW certified shops. I think if not a BMW certified shop, then they are allowed to use whatever parts they wish (ie ones cheaper for them), that the owner agrees to.

If you have GEICO and choose to use BMW, then the BMW facility will argue with GEICO for approval of your work. Naturally, that would be the case with any other repairer.
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Last edited by chrischeung; 12-11-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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  #23  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:01 AM
BenF12400 BenF12400 is offline
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It's a shame that what was (probably) a low speed fender-bender that did not cause true structural damage to this new vehicle would cause diminished value. Obviously save the repair receipt so if you sell the vehicle privately you can show that there was no frame damage. In 2008 we bought our son a CPO X3 (2006) with 16000 miles on it (recession=decent price); within a week he was hit from behind at a stoplight by a fellow high school student. Got flatbedded to the dealer's actual body shop since the muffler was dragging. Total cost to the other person's insurance was like $3000, but I figured he got a new muffler and actually the entire exhaust system out of the deal. Can't tell anything was repaired. Still drives like new at 60000 miles. Just a bumper cover and muffler.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:10 AM
chrischeung chrischeung is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenF12400 View Post
It's a shame that what was (probably) a low speed fender-bender that did not cause true structural damage to this new vehicle would cause diminished value.
Ahhh - used vehicle pricing - where perception is often more important than reality.

The OP is getting a new quarter panel, that will be repainted. That is definitely diminished value in my opinion. Put yourself in the shoes of a buyer - would you pay the same amount for his car, or one that had not been in an accident? Even if you didn't mind, I'm pretty sure you'd like a discount. I'd recommend the OP try and get diminished value out of the offender.

Some may be able to forgive a bumper mishap, especially if the rest of the car is flawless, but a panel change takes it a step further in my opinion. Regardless of what happens, once the OP gets the car back, and everything is settled, I would say put everything behind, and just enjoy the car.
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3/12 ED 7 - thread ID 610350
1/11 ED 6 - thread ID 5767556&postcount=175
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3/06 ED 2 - thread ID 136454

Last edited by chrischeung; 12-11-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrischeung View Post
GEICO has their own shops, or ones where they provide GEICO with preferential rates/treatment - I think they market it as ARX - http://www.geico.com/claims/autorepa...epair-promise/.

BMW shops will always use new BMW parts where possible. Obviously if you have a very old car, say 20 years, that may not be possible, or if a part is unavailable. That is a policy across all BMW certified shops. I think if not a BMW certified shop, then they are allowed to use whatever parts they wish (ie ones cheaper for them), that the owner agrees to.

If you have GEICO and choose to use BMW, then the BMW facility will argue with GEICO for approval of your work. Naturally, that would be the case with any other repairer.
GEICO doesnt own those shops. State Farm has them, Allsate has them..they are simply business affiliations. A shop can have multiple relationships with different insurers.

Look, it is clear that this discussion has devolved.... I stand by my statements that the internal policy that BMW has with their "Certified Shops" is unrelated to what YOUR insurer will seek to pay.

To the OP- I'll reiterate that the EXTENT of the damage is almost unrelated to a DV claim: if someone says "oh, you wont get DV as it was minor" they are spinning you. IMO. The problem will be that carfax says "crash, rear quarter" and that's it. People assume the worst, and as a result the value is diminished. There are certified appraisers that will give you a complete documentation of the DV claim- comps, etc, etc. You will need this to press a claim. I've run into quite a few people who have been successful (it is a pet issue of mine) but they are unusual people- self driven, articulate, committed. or lawyers.

Good Luck- sorry to hear. See you over on m5board.

A
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