335is versus M3

Looking for some feedback on the m3 versus a 335is. Assuming the car will not be used on the track, what;s the better option? Also, while I am leaning toward a 6MT, is the DCT on the 335is a lesser version than the M3?

THANKS!!

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/07/08/bm...bling-rivalry/

Having driven both (but own neither) I would say that it's a tough call. But... if you exclude the "exclusive" M3 options/features like the premium sound system, MDM and EDC then you end up with the only true differentiating features being the engine, tires and appearance. At that point, the 335is (in my opinion) is 97% of an M3 for 90% of the price.

Last year I picked between these two cars and chose an M3 because of an emotional override. With the cost of gas today, in a way I'm glad the deal fell apart because it gave me time to review what I really needed out of a car. I think if I were to make the choice today, it would be the 335is without a doubt. Although the M3 is all kinds of awesome in so many ways the 335is isn't... for a non-track car, daily driver I think I'd be far happier with the payments on a 335is than an M3.

YMMV... and I know the opinion is extremely variable on this one... but the 335is is a damned fine car. The only thing that might change my opinion would be that my life changed recently and I added a dog to my family. For that reason alone, a coupe might not work for me and the 335is isn't available as a sedan.

Examine your own needs and desires and make a decision based on that. Hopefully this input will help you

Originally Posted by nymetsfan

Looking for some feedback on the m3 versus a 335is. Assuming the car will not be used on the track, what;s the better option? Also, while I am leaning toward a 6MT, is the DCT on the 335is a lesser version than the M3?

THANKS!!

I have owned an '08 M3 convertible and now own a 335is convertible. I'm not sure that the premium sound system is any different on either cars? They sound equally as good to me?

Benefits of the 335is convertible IMO: feels lighter and more nimble particularly on the back roads (and also does not plow around tight corners as does the M3 vert); gets better gas mileage; has a much better sounding exhaust system and is more fun to drive with the top down because of the exhaust note; with the DCT transmission, the torque is more usable at lower/mid RPMs/speeds. I have since also driven both with a manual transmission, and the lower end torque feels very good in the M3 also; the rear end diffuser is exclusive to the 335is; not as many have been produced and the resale value should hold up decent down the road?

Benefits of the M3 convertible: faster on the highway; nice front side vents on fenders and on the hood, although I'm not a big fan of the hood bubble; more flexibility with the M Drive power settings, but this is also a negative. It's tough to get it set properly to handle quickly changing road conditions, like back road cornering to straightaways. The 335is' sport setting is probably the best all-around setting with the DCT; the rear end looks mean; the interior leather is better; the selectable shock settings is a very nice feature.

I think the 335is convertible with the DCT is a better value, and overall is as much fun to drive as the M3 convertible. This may also be true between the two with a MT?

But, my opinion changes comparing the sedan and coupe versions with MTs. I prefer the M3 over either of the 335is hard top versions. You really get the feel for how well the M3 performs with a MT, and it performs better with it's NA high reving 8 cylinder engine as compared to the bi-turbo 6 cylinder engine on the 335is. I also feel the M3 engine may prove to be less problematic over the long haul.

I am waiting for delivery of an M3 MT sedan for my son.

Originally Posted by thumper_330

Having driven both (but own neither) I would say that it's a tough call. But... if you exclude the "exclusive" M3 options/features like the premium sound system, MDM and EDC then you end up with the only true differentiating features being the engine, tires and appearance. At that point, the 335is (in my opinion) is 97% of an M3 for 90% of the price.

How engine, body, tires, wheels, transmission, exhaust and the other "exclusive" features make up only 3% of the difference of another car is interesting math

Although the 335is is a fine car, the difference in price has been slashed by the M3 financial incentives from BMW lately, especially on the convertibles.

Of course there are a ton of threads about this subject, but here is my two cents:

Before I ordered my M3 Vert I drove all three (335i, 335is, and M3, in this order). I liked the 335, I liked the DCT 335iS more (though I do not like the aluminum trim), and I liked the M3 the most. But at the time, the M3 was quite a bit more expensive to lease, less practical etc. so I "resigned" myself to get a 335.

After my first test drives, I went back to the dealer a couple of months later and drove an M3 first, revved it a little higher, and I was blown away; I loved it. Then I drove a 335iS after the M3, and after one block, I said, let's turn around, there is no comparison.

In small and subtle ways, the M3 is a very different car. I felt this when I did my second round of test drives. Many people might not get this or feel it. If you feel the difference, get the M3, otherwise you will regret it.

On paper the iS is "90%" (or pick any number) of the M3; but these cars don't exist on paper or on torque curves. If your heart tells you to get the M3, get it; if it does not, don't.

(Also, I love the way the M looks, especially from the front.)

Its like saying pear, apple, or orange. Pick one, different shape and flavor.

A 328 is not a 335i is not a 335i with M is not a 335is is not a M3.

The 335is has the M sport body kit but a different rear valance and front fog light delete for the coupe for additional cooling. The suspension is the same sport suspension. The 335is includes DCT as an option which you can't get on the 335i/335i w/M in the US. It also includes a customized stock exhaust (it is not the performance exhaust) with black tips. It has tuned software for a 20 more HP and Torque boost up to 370 which allows up to 10 seconds. It includes stiffer motor mounts not available on the 335i/335i with M if you track the car. It also has an additional oil, water cooler and a larger fan that is not available for the 335i or 335i/M kit.

The 335is has nothing to do with the M3 which is a whole different class of car.

The M3 DCT has custom programmable modes and buttons. The ZF transmission itself is likely the same but the computer control is different to allow these features. If you don't plan on going to a track then the modes likely are just fun fodder for adjusting as though it will make some real difference in stop and go traffic. You can get a 6MTl for the 335is as well.

End of rant...

Originally Posted by nymetsfan

Looking for some feedback on the m3 versus a 335is. Assuming the car will not be used on the track, what;s the better option? Also, while I am leaning toward a 6MT, is the DCT on the 335is a lesser version than the M3?

THANKS!!

This is the M3 board - where do you think the bias will be? Expect similar bias on the 335is board.

Drive them all at the dealership and decide which one fits you best. Both are fine automobiles, and I'd be satisfied with either rather than none of them.

Originally Posted by ksoze

How engine, body, tires, wheels, transmission, exhaust and the other "exclusive" features make up only 3% of the difference of another car is interesting math

Because the body is the same except for a couple of panels. If you go for looks then yes, I personally would take the M3 over the 335is any day of the week as it's a much more handsome car. However, I am not a "form over substance" kind of guy.

Wheels... well anyone who cares will aftermarket some wheels. You can get some incredible rims for the price differential.

Transmission is the same between both cars. Both have the same manual and DCT available, though some features of the DCT are not accessible in the 335is version (but mechanically the same)

The engine... yeah we can agree there. But the 335is's engine produces far more torque than the M3's 8, and while it trails in horsepower by a significant margin I'd say for 99% of people the 335is's power is more than enough.

However, you're right; the 3% difference is really just my gut reaction after driving both. If you're the kind of person who seeks perfection and wants 100% then the 335is will NEVER be enough. For me, it wasn't... as I said I actually ordered an M3 because the 335is wasn't quite enough for me. The deal fell apart due to a shady dealer (lawsuit pending) and I ended up picking up a 2004 545i until I get it sorted out. Who knows what I'll buy then?

Originally Posted by ksoze

Although the 335is is a fine car, the difference in price has been slashed by the M3 financial incentives from BMW lately, especially on the convertibles.

This! Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. When I inked the deal on my 2011 M3, I was within a whisker of the MSRP of the base 335is... though I wasn't paying MSRP of course. But quite simply put, I felt that it was the right decision because the incentives and negotiations meant that even at $ over invoice I was going to get more car with the M3.

To this day, I lament the dealings that ended up with the deal falling apart (even though the car was built... dunno where it is now). I would have loved to be driving an M3 today, but to be honest I would've also loved a 335is. Had I been driving the latter, I do know that I would always be wondering what life with an M3 would have been like... but that's an emotional decision and not a practical one.

If I were making that same decision today, I think I'd probably still pick the M3, but only because I'd go with the sedan now since I've found new uses for four doors. But with gas prices... it'd be a close call. For the record, my earlier statement on the 335is would be if emotion weren't playing a role. Emotionally, the M3 has it still.

Originally Posted by thumper_330

Because the body is the same except for a couple of panels.

You'd be much more accurate to say the body is DIFFERENT except for a couple of panels. There are actually only three identical panels, the two doors and the truck lid, everything else, all four fenders, front/rear facias, hood, kick panels, and top (on the coupe) are all different than the 335iS as are the headlights. I know what you mean though, the similarity is certainly there but they're actually very different bodies.

As for the value, the OP doesn't mention whether buying or leasing but I did a quick lease calculation for the iS vert vs the M3 vert I have on order. With both fully loaded except for DCT the 335iS is only $30 cheaper than E93 M3. Drop the options available on the M that aren't available on the iS such as DDC, extended leather, premium sound and 19" 220M wheels and the M3 is $20 cheaper per month than the iS. From that perspective, the M3 Vert is by far the better "value". You get lower payments and it's an M. To quote a famous philosopher: "Winning!"

Originally Posted by Mace14

You'd be much more accurate to say the body is DIFFERENT except for a couple of panels. There are actually only three identical panels, the two doors and the truck lid, everything else, all four fenders, front/rear facias, hood, kick panels, and top (on the coupe) are all different than the 335iS as are the headlights. I know what you mean though, the similarity is certainly there but they're actually very different bodies.

As for the value, the OP doesn't mention whether buying or leasing but I did a quick lease calculation for the iS vert vs the M3 vert I have on order. With both fully loaded except for DCT the 335iS is only $30 cheaper than E93 M3. Drop the options available on the M that aren't available on the iS such as DDC, extended leather, premium sound and 19" 220M wheels and the M3 is $20 cheaper per month than the iS. From that perspective, the M3 Vert is by far the better "value". You get lower payments and it's an M. To quote a famous philosopher: "Winning!"

I had priced the same last summer and the M3 loaded vert was over $80,000, and my 335is vert listed for just over $68,000...both with DCTs and optional 19" wheels. How did your math come out the way it did in pricing convertibles?

Originally Posted by beden1

I had priced the same last summer and the M3 loaded vert was over $80,000, and my 335is vert listed for just over $68,000...both with DCTs and optional 19" wheels. How did your math come out the way it did in pricing convertibles?

Easy, I'm using lease figures not a direct purchase. My M3's MSRP is $81,000 but while the lease terms available for the 3-series in general are good the M3 Vert's are exceptional. For a 12,000 mile lease the M3's residual is a whopping 63% and the MF is equivalent to .98% (with MSDs). I'm doing ED so that MF includes the .00030 ED adder. If you're not doing ED and if you qualify for owner loyalty your MF could be .00011 which is equal to only one quarter of a percent interest.

Now, at the same time if someone is considering leasing and then purchasing the vehicle at the end of the lease the M3 may not be the way to go as the high residual means your end of lease payoff is about $51,000. For instance, the lease payments on my current 08 335i Coupe are about $35/month more than my new M3's will be but the 335i's end of lease payoff is only $30,000 while the M3's will be more than $20k higher.

You have to drive both. If you like the M3 better get it or you will always wish you had instead of ending up paying a lot of dough for a substitute.
If you like the 335is better get it to save some money and not being struck with buyers remorse. The M3 ain't cheap even if it's a smoking value for an iconic world class sports car.

If you ask me for my opinion the M3 feels different from all other 3s including the is, it's in a class of it's own and feels more like a pure M car than a hot rodded 3.

Originally Posted by thumper_330

The engine... yeah we can agree there. But the 335is's engine produces far more torque than the M3's 8, and while it trails in horsepower by a significant margin I'd say for 99% of people the 335is's power is more than enough.

This statement never gets the proper comparison. Here's what you really need to look at. The ///M3's rev limit is 8400rpm; now I'm not sure where the 335is hits it's limit but I would guess somewhere around 7200-7500rpm. If you change the tach on the ///M3 and start it at 1200rpm (make the current 1200rpm mark the 0) I would bet all this no torque talk would go away. The true fact of the matter is the ///M3 is a high rev monster. If you put both in the max torque band this wouldn't be a conversation. The 335is will run out of rpm room quick while the beast is still sucking up asphalt. So the low torque conversation only exsist for those who can't justify getting a ///M3..............Phil

Excellent. Thanks everyone for the comments. I hit the bid and drove home a Jerez black 6MT Jerez black M3 today..***** what fun.

I have read of the DCT vs 6MT debate. My friend was urging me to get the DCT and I just couldn't resist the 6MT. There is zero doubt in my mind, despite traffic some days around NYC, the 6MT is the way to go. It really is awesome.

Originally Posted by nymetsfan

Excellent. Thanks everyone for the comments. I hit the bid and drove home a Jerez black 6MT Jerez black M3 today..***** what fun.

I have read of the DCT vs 6MT debate. My friend was urging me to get the DCT and I just couldn't resist the 6MT. There is zero doubt in my mind, despite traffic some days around NYC, the 6MT is the way to go. It really is awesome.

Good move now get to the mods ...........Phil

Originally Posted by nymetsfan

Excellent. Thanks everyone for the comments. I hit the bid and drove home a Jerez black 6MT Jerez black M3 today..***** what fun.

I have read of the DCT vs 6MT debate. My friend was urging me to get the DCT and I just couldn't resist the 6MT. There is zero doubt in my mind, despite traffic some days around NYC, the 6MT is the way to go. It really is awesome.

I test drove the 335is 6MT twice last year and it was loads of fun! No question that's a fine car to get. But I took home a Jerez Black M3 and have had no regrets. (I got DCT and also have no regrets, but do not sneeze at all at the joys of 6MT.)

Congratulations!

I wanted to limit to <$55k max and the M3 was just way over the top for me in the high sixties plus the gas tax, higher insurance, and property taxes I have to pay in my city. Also more difficult to swing a good deal at the dealer.

I don't think you can go wrong with an M3 or 335is. The M3 is something special on the road and no other model will have a look that close to looking like it. That's the only thing about the 335is that bothers me a little bit is that it is to close to a 335i with M kit if you have a black car. Otherwise you can tell the difference better with other colors since the 335is has black mirror caps and other accents.

I think the 335is should have been given the wider front fender and rear wheel panels of the M3 minus the hood at least and 19's standard. Then people would flock to buying it. This would have made it a baby M3, otherwise it truly is a 335i "S" sport model.

If you want a special car then get an M3. If you don't want to stand to far out in the crowd but want a little extra from the factory with some uniqueness and a price that is maxing your limit and don't want anything used, then 335is.


The numbers:

335is (0-60 4.6-4.7)
Max. hp/rpm320/5900
Max. torque/rpm 332/1500 (Torque boost with sport button up to 369)

M3 (0-60 4.4-4.5)
Max. hp/rpm 414/8300
Max. torque/rpm 295/3900

The 335is has more immediate power where the M3 sits at the high end if you call it that. The big difference is that the M3 gets its power later in the RPM band but hangs on to it longer up to 8500 RPM. The 335is starts the power sooner but ends at 7000RPM. On the dyno the M3 probably has 50-60 more HP and the 335is has 50 more torque. On the track the M3 would have more usable power with the high RPM band and better suspension.

Originally Posted by llis

I test drove the 335is 6MT twice last year and it was loads of fun! No question that's a fine car to get. But I took home a Jerez Black M3 and have had no regrets. (I got DCT and also have no regrets, but do not sneeze at all at the joys of 6MT.)

Congratulations!

Originally Posted by KevinJ_2k1325ci

The 335is starts the power sooner but ends at 7000RPM.

So if this is correct, then my statement above is even more valid.........Phil

Just saw you picked up the M3, congrats..can't go wrong. When I priced out an M3 compared to my 335is, the 335is came out to <$54 and the M3 was $65. Not sure if the base radio on the M3 = HK but enhanced sounds adds another $1700 or $11k-$13k more than a 335is. Start adding competition and technology package and other options your in the $15k+ over a 335is.

My 335is: Metalic, DCT, HK, Heated, Nav, Premium, Convenience, iPod.

Originally Posted by llis

I test drove the 335is 6MT twice last year and it was loads of fun! No question that's a fine car to get. But I took home a Jerez Black M3 and have had no regrets. (I got DCT and also have no regrets, but do not sneeze at all at the joys of 6MT.)

Congratulations!

Originally Posted by KevinJ_2k1325ci

I think the 335is should have been given the wider front fender and rear wheel panels of the M3 minus the hood at least and 19's standard. Then people would flock to buying it. This would have made it a baby M3, otherwise it truly is a 335i "S" sport model.

I think you're missing the point. THe iS is just a sportier model of the 335i and stands very well on that point alone, adding fender flares just makes it an "M" wannabe.

I remember the old Dodge Stealth. Dodge hyped it as a 300hp twin-turbo, 4 wheel drive, 4 wheel steering sports car. The one most people actually bought had just a puny 165hp engine and was front wheel drive at that. The problem was nobody could tell the difference from the looks and few wanted to buy an expensive 300hp model when the identical appearing one parked next to his was bought at half the price. The puny version undervalued what was otherwise a pretty good car for the time. BMW has a vested interest in not devaluing the "M" brand although the M-Sport packages come a bit close to doing just that. BMW needs to keep the M a separate and distinct model.

Originally Posted by Mace14

I did a quick lease calculation for the iS vert vs the M3 vert I have on order. With both fully loaded except for DCT the 335iS is only $30 cheaper than E93 M3. Drop the options available on the M that aren't available on the iS such as DDC, extended leather, premium sound and 19" 220M wheels and the M3 is $20 cheaper per month than the iS. From that perspective, the M3 Vert is by far the better "value". You get lower payments and it's an M. To quote a famous philosopher: "Winning!"

Yes, I just ordered a new M3 convertible today, and for a three-year lease, the price was almost ASTOUNDINGLY reasonable. I got the 6-speed manual, the cold weather package, metallic paint (space gray with a red leather interior), satellite radio, anti-theft alarm, dynamic damper control and the overpriced bluetooth, and for three years @ 10,000 miles/year with no money down (except a $750 lease acquisition fee) and inclusive of the NYC 8%+ sales tax I'm paying $853/month...

In fact, it's so reasonable that if they could figure out how to pull 500 pounds out of this beautiful bloated beast (without losing the retractable roof), I'd happily pay $100/month more!

Seriously, this isn't much more expensive than leasing a Mustang GT convertible (which I was also considering).

Originally Posted by logicalthought

Yes, I just ordered a new M3 convertible today, and for a three-year lease, the price was almost ASTOUNDINGLY reasonable. I got the 6-speed manual, the cold weather package, metallic paint (space gray with a red leather interior), satellite radio, anti-theft alarm, dynamic damper control and the overpriced bluetooth, and for three years @ 10,000 miles/year with no money down (except a $750 lease acquisition fee) and inclusive of the NYC 8%+ sales tax I'm paying $853/month...

In fact, it's so reasonable that if they could figure out how to pull 500 pounds out of this beautiful bloated beast (without losing the retractable roof), I'd happily pay $100/month more!

Seriously, this isn't much more expensive than leasing a Mustang GT convertible (which I was also considering).

What was the MSRP on your car? Where did you order it from? The car I'm waiting to pick up has MW Metallic, Cold Weather, PP2, M-DCT, 19" wheels, PDC, Nav, and enhanced premium sound, and for 10k miles/year with NY tax I'm paying slightly less than 800 (nothing down). And that's without MSDs.

Originally Posted by AKAGodSent

What was the MSRP on your car? Where did you order it from? The car I'm waiting to pick up has MW Metallic, Cold Weather, PP2, M-DCT, 19" wheels, PDC, Nav, and enhanced premium sound, and for 10k miles/year with NY tax I'm paying slightly less than 800. And that's without MSDs.

Lol, yeah I'm looking through some older threads here and starting to feel ripped off! The MSRP was $73,925 and I'm seeing guys posting about $80,000 MSRPs with sub-$800 lease payments!

Basically, I told the guy "everyone's entitled to make a living" and said I'd give him $1500 over the Edmond's invoice cost, so he wound up leasing me the car at around $4000 under MSRP. However, even $1000 cheaper would've only saved around $20/month and I know he set a high residual (I think it was 62% or so) and I got BMW's best-credit rate, so I'm not sure how one gets under $800 with a more expensive car, unless he fudged the numbers against me somehow. (I got it from Manhattan BMW.)

Originally Posted by logicalthought

Lol, yeah I'm looking through some older threads here and starting to feel ripped off! The MSRP was $73,925 and I'm seeing guys posting about $80,000 MSRPs with sub-$800 lease payments!

Basically, I told the guy "everyone's entitled to make a living" and said I'd give him $1500 over the Edmond's invoice cost, so he wound up leasing me the car at around $4000 under MSRP. However, even $1000 cheaper would've only saved around $20/month and I know he set a high residual (I think it was 62% or so) and I got BMW's best-credit rate, so I'm not sure how one gets under $800 with a more expensive car, unless he fudged the numbers against me somehow. (I got it from Manhattan BMW.)

If you want to see if the guy I dealt with can get you a better deal, PM me and I'll see if he can do anything.