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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #251  
Old 12-14-2012, 10:15 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BJ,

Unless my math is wrong (which is always a distinct possibiity) that would mean your monthy expenses are about $33,500/mo.
He probably means 4% of his net income.
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  #252  
Old 12-14-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, I'm not.

The cost of 30 days of gas/electricity where I live in the month of December is $680.

The cost of 30 days of a $50,000 BMW 3 Series where I live in the month of December is $539.

If the gas/electricity has a "real" cost of $300 and I'm paying $380 for assorted bits of infrastructure and taxes and palm greasing it's of no consequence to me; I either pay $680 or I have no power. Simple. Same for the car. Whatever voodoo finance goes into that $539 is of no consequence to me; I either pay $539 or I have no new BMW. Simple.

I am paying the "going rate" for these two utilities; nothing is depreciating because neither is an investment, neither is owned. They just exist as typical monthly expenditures for necessary functions.

BJ
Whether we lease, buy, buy extended warranty or not, we always pay for the opportunity to drive a BMW and go to wherever we want to go until we don't wan't to pay for it anymore.
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  #253  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:01 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Here is my take on the luxury part.

In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still means luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?

Now in Europe, BMW is considered a premium brand. But realize that the 316 comes with a 136HP engine, steel wheels with hub caps, velour seats, etc., hardly a luxury configuration. The 316d comes with a 116Hp monster. About 10 years ago, the 316 came with roll up windows and a 0-60mph time of about 13-14secs. You get the idea.

In the US, VW is considered a cheap brand, which is why the Phaeton didn't sell well. But the Phaeton is a true luxury car, with a 12-cyl engine, incredible massaging leather seats, beautiful woodwork, etc. It seems like individual models matter a little more than brands over there.

Last edited by bmw_or_audi; 12-15-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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  #254  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:10 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
In the end, the 3 Series is a fantastic car but it's really designed to be a $45,000-$50,000 configuration that's turned over every 3˝ years.
Is it? When it is sold with 116Hp engines, velour seats, steelies with hub caps, was it really meant to be a $50K car? We get the highest end engines in the US, and even though we also get plastic seats and such, overall these cars are well equipped over their base configuration. Are we getting nicely dressed up average cars or are Europeans getting $50K-caliber stripped down cars?

Last edited by bmw_or_audi; 12-15-2012 at 09:47 AM.
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  #255  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:38 PM
Lorenzzo Lorenzzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Again, I view it through a far more simplistic lens:

The wife and I have decided that $1,200 a month is our budget for our cars, so we (I) go out and get as much car as we (I) can for that monthly outlay. We've got a 2012 Honda Odyssey Touring Elite for $650 and a 2013 BMW 328i for $549 that suits our needs perfectly at this time.

I've got a cable bill. It's for something that's recreational yet necessary. It "depreciates" immediately because it has no residual value at all, the only value coming from the experience it brings. Same for my gas bill, my electric bill, my internet bill, my cellphone bill, and my BMW bill.

These other utilities are not 'investments'. They have no 'depreciation'. They are just expenditures. Same for your car. You don't need to overthink this.

BJ
Ok, so you're just messing. Got it.
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  #256  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:41 AM
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ChrisF01 ChrisF01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
They are both sports cars. Highly capable in performance, but I would not classify as luxury automobiles. I do find much in the way of quality, however.
Yea, I'm not knocking Porsche by any means... they're a bit overpriced, but utterly fantastic performance cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
I'm being challenged and I'm defending myself. That said, if you think your 7 Series makes you look humble...

BJ
I'm not the one bragging about my financial situation on an online forum

I debadged my car, and when people ask, tell them its a 5er. You're the one pointing out you're driving a "Luxury[trim]" 3...

Humble you say?
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  #257  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:15 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Wow, didn't know BMW put that on the door sill. More embarrassing than the M logo on the M-Sport.
That's not embarrassing; that's BMW's way of making their intentions very clear.

In case you didn't get the hint, the F30 is larger, longer, wider, softer, defaults its transmission to Comfort mode, offers most of the Premium package as standard equipment, and has a Luxury line as its best selling variation.

BJ
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  #258  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:25 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
He isn't discussing his finances. He is simply stating that we all, the people who frequent this forum, are not "average" Americans. We all make way more money. And some makes hand over fist more than that. It doesn't define who we are but the discussion will always be skewed to the wrong direction of normal. A normal person does not lease a bimmer every three years. A normal person doesn't pay cash on a 50k car. No matter how long they own it after.
+1

And the other extreme of not-normal is someone who purchases a 3 Series to keep for more than 10 years. Conversation like this, advice like this, it should be focused on the norm which is either a) lease for 3 years or b) buy for 4˝.

In my circle of friends, I don't know a single one that is driving a 10 year old car nor do I know a single one who purchased a car for $50,000 cash. Those who interject these radical strategies aren't helping.

BJ
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  #259  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:41 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is my take on the luxury part.

In the US, BMW is considered a luxury brand. The 3 is considered an entry level luxury car, but that still mean luxury though. Although one has to wonder about the fact that the most common configuration seems to be no-line with plastic seats, often with plastic silver trim. How luxurious is that?
And here is my take on the Luxury part: The BMW 3 Series is two cars, not one.

$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan

Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.

It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.

When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.

When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.

So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?

The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.

BJ
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  #260  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:20 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Wow, didn't know BMW put that on the door sill. More embarrassing than the M logo on the M-Sport.
Regarding the M logos on the M-Sport, lemme copy and paste my replies on from the other forum.

"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.

A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."

"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.

The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."

Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
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  #261  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:37 AM
Redrokit8 Redrokit8 is offline
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I think this is a popular belief due to the complexity of repair and cost of parts. The German cars in general have a rocket science aura around them that they are difficult to fix. I think they are, only until you jump in and learn the systems. The biggest disadvantage we have as owners is we don't have the proper diagnostic tools so readily available to use. Don't forget that you do have a great tool and that's this forum. I am very grateful to see that there is a list of suppliers here that are considered competitively priced.
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  #262  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redrokit8 View Post
I think this is a popular belief due to the complexity of repair and cost of parts. The German cars in general have a rocket science aura around them that they are difficult to fix. I think they are, only until you jump in and learn the systems. The biggest disadvantage we have as owners is we don't have the proper diagnostic tools so readily available to use. Don't forget that you do have a great tool and that's this forum. I am very grateful to see that there is a list of suppliers here that are considered competitively priced.
+1, the knowledge on these boards are invaluable. Great enthusiasts with lots of experience. Btw, most OBD II scanners can diagnose all the SES & CEL codes that your car can throw. A quick search with the codes easily finds threads with solutions to the issues.
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  #263  
Old 12-15-2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And here is my take on the Luxury part: The BMW 3 Series is two cars, not one.

$36,000 Entry Level Stripper
$50,000 Luxury Sport Sedan

Those spending $349 for a base model and those spending $599 for a loaded model are two completely different people driving two completely different cars for two completely different reasons. The $349 people are competing with Honda and Volkswagen, deliberately choosing the de-featured option of the group. The $599 people are competing with Mercedes and Lexus, choosing full comfort/luxury features as BMW intended.

It's been this way for awhile, not exactly rocket science, but in this forum the streams get crossed and the discussions get animated because we've got a bunch of 50 year old's driving $50,000 Luxury models, some 40 year olds in $45,000 Sport models, and a whole bunch of 30 year olds in $36,000 base models. We're all talking at once, we're all seeing things from our own points of view, we're failing to see the big picture.

When you step back, you'll see that to the "average" non-BMW owner, we're all driving "yuppie luxury cars" from their perspective.

When you step back, you'll see that the $50,000 F30 driver and the $36,000 F30 driver are the same people just at different ages and life stages. 15 years ago I was a $36,000 driver and bought CPO and kept my cars for 5 years. Now I'm a $50,000 driver and lease because I know better.

So when you say "the 3 is considered an entry level luxury car", it depends on who is looking at it. Is it a family in Boise who makes $49,000 a year in annual income? Is it an executive with a net worth of $4M? Is it a college kid in Buffalo whose moving up from a Mini? Is it a spendthrift in Massachusetts driving a 10 year old car into the ground?

The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.

BJ
Everybody should take the Germans take on their 3 series, the German equivalent of a Camry or Accord. . They look to the 7 series as their upscale luxury car and the 5 as the luxury car.
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  #264  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:27 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by av98 View Post
Everybody should take the Germans take on their 3 series, the German equivalent of a Camry or Accord. They look to the 7 series as their upscale luxury car and the 5 as the luxury car.
Everyone should wear a Timex, vacation in the Catskills, and dine at White Castle too.

BJ
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  #265  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:04 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The 3 Series is many different cars to many different people. That's really the beauty of it. BMW has built it in such a way that it can be whatever it's customers want it to be- something we should all be embracing.
But aren't nearly all cars sold in the US marketed that way?

Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K

It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
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  #266  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:27 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
But aren't nearly all cars sold in the US marketed that way?

Honda Accord: $22K to $33K
Honda Civic: $16K to $28K
VW Passat: $20K to $32K
MB C-class: $35K to $62K

It seems to me like most cars can be optioned to a price between 50% to 75% more over the base trim. I don't see this as anything specific to the 3 or BMW in general. This is just general auto industry practice.
I always love seeing Boxster and 911 msrps. You can find $100k Boxsters lol.
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  #267  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:02 AM
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EddieB EddieB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Regarding the M logos on the M-Sport, lemme copy and paste my replies on from the other forum.

"BMW has been offering M-Tehnic, M-Sport, M-whatever packages for at least a couple decades now.

A friend has an '99 E36 328is for example. At this point it's almost impossible to distinguish from an M3 as he is running stock M3 brakes and wheels. Once again the steering wheel and a variety of other things have M badges on it. It has the same part number for the front bumper too."

"On the Msport the badges are on the inside.

The only exception is the wheels which I have upgraded anyway. So nowhere on the exterior is my car claiming to be an M."

Now, would I prefer there to be NO M-badges at all on my car? Sure. Does it or should it bother me, NO. If I started ADDING M badges or implying the car was an M car, that is when lameness comes into play.
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't know about your M Roadster, but my E46 M3 had so many M3 badges it was almost embarrassing as well. But, BMW made them that way and I didn't add any extra ones. So at the end of the day, much ado about nothing.
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  #268  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:15 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieB View Post
Sounds reasonable to me. I don't know about your M Roadster, but my E46 M3 had so many M3 badges it was almost embarrassing as well. But, BMW made them that way and I didn't add any extra ones. So at the end of the day, much ado about nothing.
M Roadster is pretty badge heavy too. I am happy to say it has LESS M Badges than it did stock.

There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.

I am not a member of this camp.
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  #269  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post

There are plenty of people who add M plate frames, and M air stem caps, they seem to think there is no such thing as too many M emblems.
I put roundel air stem caps on. Does that count
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  #270  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:56 AM
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I aim keeping mine out of warranty up to 7 years, yeah that MUST be easy. I mean; if BMW can't build a car that lasts that long without crazy costs and hassles then it is a POS.

It is just normal to expect some kind of repairs & troubles past 4 years/50K miles. How much is the question. For my last 3 years, I budgeted 1800$/yr or 150$/mo for costs incurred that would have been covered under warranty.

After 28mo out of warranty, I should have spent 4200$, my actual cost is 1327$ so I am 2873$ positive in the bank.

I have to replace the engine head's cover gasket, change brake fluids, change battery.... another 1500$ to spend ... I am still 1000$+ ahead.
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  #271  
Old 12-15-2012, 12:16 PM
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The key to long term car ownership is proper maintenance.
I don't think so.

Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.

No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.

The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
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Last edited by Saintor; 12-15-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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  #272  
Old 12-15-2012, 12:39 PM
x3brian x3brian is offline
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I'm jumping into the fray and I promise it's not about the size of the penis in my wallet...

BMWs are reliable and I agree with BJ they are designed with multiple consumers in mind and will perform the way that target market wants it to.

Take me for example...

I strongly fall into the higher earner with a family category that expects value out of my BMW and to perform like a Camry AND like a pseudo sports activity vehicle.

I purchase my cars outright because I view long term ownership as the lowest monthly amortized expense over 10 years. Once the car is paid off monthly car expense becomes a reserve account that is significantly lower than a car payment. I have gone both ways paid cash at purchase by saving the monthly payment amount over 10 years or doing payments and then paying myself back for the remaining time for future repairs/car purchase.

My 2009 x3 has 105k miles on it because I drive the snot out of it...my daily commute is 120 miles round trip and I regularly drive down to LA to check in on my staff at that facility.

Am I worried that my car is out of warranty? Nope. As an engineer it is in my blood to over-maintain my car...because I EXPECT 10 years and 300k miles out of it. I fall into the camp that leaking gaskets happen and it is part of normal PM...as a side I haven't yet had any...

Now this is what makes BMW so awesome....

The same car that I paid $50k for will be perfect for someone that buys new ones every 3-4 years...no extra maintenance or worries and no fear of an expensive repair...BJ point of view

OR

For someone with long term goals....the car is built like a tank if you more than double your maintenance schedule a la old school and have no fear of minor inconveniences here and there over 10 years...in return you get a reliable, comfortable, fun, and yes luxurious car. My point of view.

This is what makes these forums such a great resource. They serve us both. I have a place to help me DIY my car to 300k and others have a place to discuss newer models....

Last edited by x3brian; 12-15-2012 at 12:51 PM.
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  #273  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:10 PM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I have to replace the engine head's cover gasket, change brake fluids, change battery.... another 1500$ to spend ... I am still 1000$+ ahead.
Are you taking it to the dealer? I think I spent $120 on the head gasket, $120 on the battery, and $70-80 for a brake fluid change, but my car is not a BMW. Say I got a good deal because I am a regular at the shop and you have to pay twice that much. That still shouldn't get close to $1500.
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  #274  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:13 PM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Mein Auto: BMW E90 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Are you taking it to the dealer? I think I spent $120 on the head gasket, $120 on the battery, and $70-80 for a brake fluid change. Say I got a good deal because I am a regular at the shop and you have to pay twice that much. That's still shouldn't get close to $1500.
On the N52, the gasket is a 4-6 hours job if I believe what I read on internet. Tell me where I can get qualified service for 25$/hr.

I did change valve cover gasket (and even timing belts) on other cars but this one looks like *a pain*.

I plan to change the battery myself. I'll have the brake fluid changed at a BMW dealer but I am not decided where to have my engine cover gasket changed. One thing I am sure, it will be at least 500$.
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Last edited by Saintor; 12-15-2012 at 01:15 PM.
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  #275  
Old 12-15-2012, 01:49 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Mein Auto: '11 E93 335is & '08 535xi
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I don't think so.

Few repairs are due to the negligence of preventive maintenance. They just happen, unexpected.

No preventive maintenance could save me to change *twice* my engine head's cover gasket or multiple ignition coil packs.

The key to long term car ownership is design, IMO. Design testing to be more accurate. Talk to the masters, Honda and Toyota; they are doing crazy things like advanced statistical tests to a level that BMW just won't do.
Your only controllable as an owner is to properly maintain your car. Given your scenario, replacing head gaskets and coil packs, then add on top a remanufacture of your transmission or major engine issues because you didn't do regular oil and fluid changes, would suck X2.

Mechanical parts break or wear out. That's the nature of the beast. In most cases, proper maintenanace either eliminates problems from occuring or slows down the process. Regular servicing can also reveal potential issues and replace parts before a much more expensive fix may be needed.
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Last edited by beden1; 12-15-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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