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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #26  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 AM
Lorenzzo Lorenzzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
www.rennlist.com

Go to water cooled model section and check the 911 or the Boxster/Cayman Forums. Search for reliability threads or register and post your question about reliability. That's what I did before I bought mine and I was really pleased that the Porsches held up very well.

The 997.2 (911 model) seems to be problem free. The 997.1 had a couple of issues. The Boxster and Caymans seem to be very good as well.

Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300. Rear tires seem to need replacing quicker than the front tires and it looks like an average of 8,000 miles to replace the rear tires.
Thanks for the info. And I'll check out the forum. I had figured old Porsche's OOW bled money, based purely on assumption. That not being true would present some interesting possibilities.
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  #27  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:51 AM
BertStevens BertStevens is offline
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
Please expand on this!

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  #28  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:06 AM
vern vern is offline
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I agree with your numbers. 2-3k a year including maintainance costs is cheap considering that these are BMW's. That is about 250-300 bucks a month and you cannot lease any modern BMW for an amount close to that number.
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
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  #29  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:10 AM
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Majikthese42 Majikthese42 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I had figured old Porsche's OOW bled money, based purely on assumption. That not being true would present some interesting possibilities.
It still "depends".

Some Porsche models require more attention than others. Some owners enjoy wrenching and others might but don't have the time. Also, note Porsche 911 owner demographics. The invoice for a dealer oil change or minor service from a Porsche dealer might make a Hyundai owner faint.
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  #30  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:14 AM
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I think I'll agree with the apparent consensus here that it depends. It depends a lot even on the specific car you buy, and how you buy.

Basically, if you were to buy new and keep the car then I think the odds are better that you can continue to drive the car well out of warranty. I'd definitely want to exceed the BMW recommended maintenance schedule by doing my own "in-between" oil changes (which I have done on my 135i). But even then there's a couple of caveats.

Let me use my 135i as my example; would I own this car out of warranty? At the moment I am thinking no. My car has an incredibly complex electronic system (the entire car does, not just the iDrive stuff) coupled to a relatively high-strung turbocharged engine that to-date does not really have enough "real-world" stats to say that it won't suffer some critical turbo failure at some point. It's also still a bit early to say that it will never have a problem like the N54's HPFP problem... while the stats to-date are good, it took a good couple of years for the HPFP problem to show some significant noise.

The engine is also coupled to a dual-clutch transmission. Now, I think it's a thing of beauty from a technical perspective. I think it's an incredible piece of technology that I love... but the longevity and repair costs are something I don't think there are any really good numbers on. The DCT has only been used in a few relatively low-volume model BMW's and as such there really isn't enough data to make a determination on long-term life. Now, I happen to think clutch life in this might well be better than a torque converter in an automatic simply because there's two of them and it's a consistent level of wear and tear from the system itself... but even then I wonder how much all that is going to cost to replace when the clutches need replaced.

I have similar issues with the AWD X-Drive system (though not on my car, obviously)... it's very complex and again used on a relatively small portion of BMW's sold... so I am dubious about the longevity of the system. It's complicated compared to say Audi's Quattro and Subaru's AWD because from an engineering perspective it really is a retrofit onto a RWD car. I'd be wary of that too.

Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.

The modern x28i? Well, except the 1'er which still comes with that marvelous I6 I would probably pass; the engine is new and at least as complex as the N55 if not moreso. I'd be VERY wary of owning that beyond the warranty because there simply aren't the miles on that engine to prove it's longevity.

Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic. There are fewer and fewer things you can do to repair a modern automobile yourself, and it's becoming harder and less cost-effective even for independent shops to make a go of it without investing 10's of thousands of dollars in computer equipment for each manufacturer. Even then they don't always get it right. The last car BMW made that was really "shadetree-friendly" was the E46. Even the E60 was not a good car to try to work on yourself, and as of the advent of the E90 and newer it's almost impossible to do a lot of the work yourself effectively.

Hope that all helps
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  #31  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:17 AM
Lorenzzo Lorenzzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
Back of the envelope accepting OOW maintenance estimates on this thread there doesn't really seem to be that great of a PV difference. But the seeming reliability would permit garaging a back up for fun without tying up much money.
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  #32  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:23 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
Even with that, there are some caveats; BMW have like all manufacturers effectively locked out the shadetree mechanic.
That's a valid concern, hence the PZEV warranty is critical IMO on modern BMW's for long term ownership. Effectively any CEL should be covered by BMW.
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  #33  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
That's a valid concern, hence the PZEV warranty is critical IMO on modern BMW's for long term ownership. Effectively any CEL should be covered by BMW.
Concerns over things like transmissions, electronics and turbos might be valid, but BMWs's business model depends on depreciation and costs of used ownership not becoming materially worse. Their fate is somewhat tied to the owner in that regard.
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  #34  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:18 AM
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av98 av98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
I have owned several BMW's out of warranty and my opinion is that it is always cheaper to own a car out of warranty than to keep buying or leasing a new car every 3 years or 50k miles. The problem, from my vantage point, is that many people go out of warranty and expect the car to run forever with no money put into it in terms of preventative maintainance or repairs. My experience has been that a problematic BMW will show its true colors long before the warranty ends (this has happened to me) and if that is the case dump it. If you get a good BMW then it will go 200k miles with proper care. It boils down to this...if you are a monthly payment driver with nothing else left over after you pay your bills then you should not drive a BMW out of warranty. This person should just lease so there is nothing unexpected. If you are financially secure and can handle an occasional 1k repair bill then you will save money keeping the car until it is somewhere between 120k - 200k miles. Lastly, I do not subscribe to the BMW service schedule for cars I am keeping past the warranty date and I have my own modified schedule that I follow and is primarily based on Mike Miller recommendations and my own personal experience.
+1, great advice. Most use Mike M's maintenance chart or the old 90's pre-free maintenance repair chart.
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  #35  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:37 AM
hans007 hans007 is offline
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BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view
I think people who make a big deal about it just do because they can't have it.

I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.

Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
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  #36  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:47 AM
samualcc samualcc is offline
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If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
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  #37  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverX3 View Post
BMW = Been (to) Most Worshop : there it explains your question

For me

BMW = Be My Woman.... And I love the brand just like I love my woman

My neighbour drives a Mitsubishi... He said BMW = Big Mother Wa...Ker

Si diff people diff view

BMW = Bring More Women
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  #38  
Old 12-10-2012, 10:57 AM
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av98 av98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
Back of the envelope accepting OOW maintenance estimates on this thread there doesn't really seem to be that great of a PV difference. But the seeming reliability would permit garaging a back up for fun without tying up much money.
That's what I've always done. Keep a relatively cheap to maintain bullet proof car like an old MR2 or Miata. If any cars need repair you are still good with the 2nd car.
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  #39  
Old 12-10-2012, 11:09 AM
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I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.

And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.

That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
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  #40  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:05 PM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
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On Porsche: They are incredibly reliable cars and very surprisingly DIY friendly. I gave my boxster a 60k mile major service for like $230 with OEM or equivalent parts from Pelican Parts. I replaced an engine mount for like $130 using simple hand tools. Coil packs were cheap and easily replaced, etc....

They are surprisingly easy to own cars (financially and mechanically) if you aren't stupid - at least any model between 1978-2005 AFAIK.

...

Lease vs. buy vs. buy pre-owned vs. buy older rages on forever. I like 10+ year old sports cars (m5, 911, others) because you can swap them around with very little out of pocket expense and get some really phenomenal cars. Heck, if I had bought a 1995-1998 911 a few years ago I'd probably be ahead right now considering they have appreciated.

If your decision is really coming down to $1000-$1500 difference a year, you probably should be staying away from BMW/Porsche/Other Expensive marques altogether.

I look at my m5 as one of my favorite toys who may someday ask me to take $3k out of my bank account, set it on fire, and go on with life as if nothing changed.
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  #41  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:51 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
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  #42  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:54 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BertStevens View Post
Please expand on this!

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Long story short is I double Mike Miller's recommendations for everything except oil changes. I do tranny, differential and power steering every 60k miles. I do brake fluid and coolant every 2 years. Oil every 8-9k miles. I drive 30k miles of highway a year so my modified schedule takes into account my driving style accordingly. Mike disagrees with my schedule and sticks to his own schedule, but he reluctantly admits my schedule is probably sufficient for my style of driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vern View Post
Using your figures for not that much more you can lease a "NEW" BMW and have a new car every 3 to 4 years.
cheers
vern
Hmm...not quite. Remember that 2-3k a year included maintainance costs and tires. I have done the math many times and I cannot see how you can lease a new BMW for anywhere near that 250-300 a month number. Any new BMW is at least double that figure plus startup costs every 3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I think people who make a big deal about it just do because they can't have it.

I mean routine maintenance might cost a little more but BMWs don't catastrophically fail any more than anything else.

Tons of Hondas and acuras had auto tyranny failures on v6 models in the mid 2000s but people don't make jokes about it since lots of regular people drive Hondas
I have been saying this for years and it falls on deaf ears. It is not like the other brands do not have failures. The difference is that the other brands are cheaper to repair and can be repaired cutting corners (thus lowering overall costs more) and if you take that approach with a BMW your end result is your BMW no longer feels like a BMW so why bother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samualcc View Post
If you are that concerned, pop down 3 or 4k for a 7 year, 100k BMW warranty. Once you pass 100k miles, you will know if it is worth holding onto the car for longer.
Many people do this to their detriment. Most BMW's will run to 100k miles with no maintainance and zero failures. The preventative maintainance that I am talking about does not pay dividends until you are well past 100k miles. If I plan to dump prior to 100k miles I do not do anything above the BMW schedule. The extended warranty is a rigged game and it benefits BMW not the owner. The owner just buys it to "feel better" because the car is still under warranty. If the car has been solid for 3-4 years and 50k miles my advice is just go cold turkey. Take the 3-4 grand worth of warranty money and use it to maintain the car. You will spend less than the warranty...trust me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I've been driving out of warranty 3 series for the last 12 years. I spend $1000-2000/year on maintenance, not including occasional set of tires. Don't think I ever had a year where I spent $3000 or more.

And I don't do any DIY, in fact my E46 I just take to the dealer for routine stuff.

That's 2-3 months of a lease payment.
Exactly. You are obviously a smart man. I can afford to buy a new car every couple of years and I have done that many of times (see my sig). But I have also owned a few up to almost 200k miles. My decision to keep a car or get rid of it has nothing to do with the warranty, but to do with my wants or needs. I get that there are people like BJ that want a new car every 3 years and believe that leasing is God's gift to mankind. It all depends on your personal needs and wants. However, when someone tries to tell me that leasing a new car is cheaper than owning one for 7-10 years and 200k miles I know they have not done the math because an 8th grader can do enough math to tell you that is blatantly false. Lastly, I also use the dealer for most, if not all, of my maintainance and repairs. I am a long term customer and they give me discounts. I cannot deal with finding an indy and hoping he knows what he is doing. Also, they give me a free BMW loaner and the indy prices really are not that much better. I have compared and when I factor in the free loaner car I am probably paying the same or less than the indy.
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  #43  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:00 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The poster who mentioned buying an extended warranty program is right on, AFAIC. I paid around $2,800 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 mile BMW warranty (2011 335is convertible with DCT), and amazingly, I paid only $2,200 (negotiated price) for the platinum 7 year/70,000 Porsche warranty through the dealer.

I would think that 7 years would be enough time to see how the cars are holding up and whether I want to continue ownership.

The other posters discussing how complicated the electrical systems have become are also correct. That's what concerns me about modern cars today, in that the manufacturers started adding these electronic creature comforts, and now customers are demanding an ever growing list of tech add-ons. IMO, the more toys, the more that can go wrong. Also, what's going to happen with resale values when you go to sell a car with an outdated GPS or iPod interface?
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
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  #44  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:02 PM
Lorenzzo Lorenzzo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
I'm seeing more new Panameras around here than any other new luxury car.
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  #45  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:05 PM
MonkeyCMonkeyDo MonkeyCMonkeyDo is offline
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I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?
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  #46  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:08 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by Lorenzzo View Post
I'm seeing more new Panameras around here than any other new luxury car.
Well you live in the OC so sure that makes sense. There are a few of them in my neck of the woods as well (Palm Beach), but BMW's and Benz still rule the road around here. The thing that kills me is that most of the Panny's I see are the base model with zero options like your typical 528i. But for the 80k those base Panny's cost you can get a much nicer BMW or Benz. The Panny is not a car I want unless it is a 4S or GTS and, at that point, we are at 110-120k.
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  #47  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:10 PM
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I love and trust my '98. It's been very reliable.

I would not own my '13 or any BMW within the past 10 years or so without a warranty.

My buddy's '98 Z3 has been bulletproof and he's around 110k miles or so.
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  #48  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:11 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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[QUOTE=MonkeyCMonkeyDo;7241180]I think it is the cheaper thing that becomes the issue. The extra cost of maintaining a BMW is ridiculous. When I needed to save money for 10 years I owned a 1999 Ford ZX2 that Consumer reports declared the most reliable vehicle under 10k. In 10 years of ownership I maybe spent 3k on repairs and maintenance. If you are spending 1500 a year on average on the old used car that seems like way too much. In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.

If 1500-3k means nothing per year, then why the hell are you driving a 10 year old car?[/QUOTE]

Because it is still much less than the 6-8k you and everyone else is spending on yearly lease payments.
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  #49  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:14 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Mein Auto: '11 E93 335is & '08 535xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Beden. That price is very good for the extended warranty on a 335is. Most people pay much more. I realize yours is to 70k miles instead of 100k and that may make a difference (you drive really low miles so makes sense for you). I also agree with people who say Porsche makes reliable cars. I agree they do, but the one Porsche I want (Panamera) does not have the greatest track record on reliability so far. Maybe by the time I am ready to replace the 535i the Panamera may have improved on reliability and I might get one.
I don't think that I would buy a new Panamera and would lease it. I have not checked the depreciation numbers for the Panamera, but typically, big sedans don't do very well with resale from any car manufacturer. That may be a better low mileage used car purchase if you could get a great deal.

The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.

PS: I negotiated for 3 extended warranties with the dealer when we picked up a new 2011.5 M3 sedan. I got a volume discount deal on all three.
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Last edited by beden1; 12-10-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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  #50  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:19 PM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Location: South Florida
 
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Mein Auto: M3/x5M
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I don't think that I would buy a new Panamera and would lease it. I have not checked the depreciation numbers for the Panamera, but typically, big sedans don't do very well with resale from any car manufacturer. That may be a better low mileage used car purchase if you could get a great deal.

The resale on the Cayenne seems to be doing very well, however. I'm going to consider the Cayenne with a diesel when I look to replace my Tahoe as my primary highway cruiser.
Funny you mention the Cayenne. We compared the Cayenne GTS along with the ML 63 and x5M. The Cayenne was a close second to the x5M for us, but the biggest problem for us was the seat comfort was much better in the x5 along with a little more rear storage space. I do like the Cayenne though. You are correct in that the Panny does not hold its value as well as other Porsche cars. Fest member leslierc purchased a year old Panny 4S certified with only 2k miles on it for some crazy number like 30k off MSRP so I can only imagine what the original owner traded it for. That is some pretty steep depreciation there.
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Last edited by Alpine300ZHP; 12-10-2012 at 01:21 PM.
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