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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #76  
Old 12-11-2012, 10:19 AM
Buildbright Buildbright is offline
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I would never own newer cars out of warrenty unless you can afford some hefty bills. Or its a Toyota Camry. or Honda Civic. The more tech that goes in to these cars the more crazy they get with the repair bills.

I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.

I know some people are lucky and I am not going to say they are always going to break but if they do...watch out. Car dealers laugh at the people who buy used (older- non CPO) Merc's, Audi's, BMW's, Jag's, and Landrover's. They feel so special that they could get a Luxury car and then boom... 5k or worse repair bill and they have to sell the car for peanuts because they can not afford to fix it.

I heard a BMW owner say "they should sell used BMW's for $1 because the repair bills cost more then the payments!" Granted I know that is not always the case.
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  #77  
Old 12-11-2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
Car dealers laugh at the people who buy used (older- non CPO) Merc's, Audi's, BMW's, Jag's, and Landrover's. They feel so special that they could get a Luxury car and then boom... 5k or worse repair bill and they have to sell the car for peanuts because they can not afford to fix it.
I laugh at their CPO asking prices.

The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
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  #78  
Old 12-11-2012, 11:55 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.
For newer cars with PZEV designation the fuel injectors are covered 15 years/150k. Mercedes, Ford, Honda, and even Kia are good at listing out all the emission related parts in their PZEV warranty booklets, BMW does not, but one SA said every dealership should carry a PZEV list for each PZEV model.
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  #79  
Old 12-11-2012, 03:59 PM
F32Fleet F32Fleet is offline
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I would say don't be a half@ss when it comes to maintenance. The car will make you pay if you try cutting too many corners.

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  #80  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:15 PM
Buildbright Buildbright is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I laugh at their CPO asking prices.

The irony is, a $5k repair is rare, but everyone who leases one of these new luxury cars pays a $5k bill every single year.
I think you are lucky and have a solid car. But talk to people who own Mercs, or other BMW's there is a reason they become very cheap out of warrenty. If they were so reliable and cheap to own people would not pay top dollar for used Toyotas and Hondas.

Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
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  #81  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I think you are lucky and have a solid car. But talk to people who own Mercs, or other BMW's there is a reason they become very cheap out of warrenty. If they were so reliable and cheap to own people would not pay top dollar for used Toyotas and Hondas.

Look how much a dealer charges for a new clutch installed or god forbid you need a new tranny. Ask any tow truck driver or mechanic about German cars and you might not like what you hear but I am not making this stuff up.
I don't know about Honda, but Toyota is living purely on their reputation these days. My brother's three 2000-era Toyotas all went to the scrap heap while my '95 325i is still going strong (with 2nd owner since I sold it).

So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted. I see a lot of comments from people here who've never owned a BMW more than 3 years old but are scared of owning a used one.
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  #82  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:49 PM
EnerJi EnerJi is offline
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Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
An interesting example, but I question your (apparent) conclusion that one should not own BMWs out-of-warranty. It appears you may be neglecting to calculate the cost of depreciation in your analysis:

A new car depreciates 15% in the first year. On a $50k car, that comes out to $7,500 of "hidden" cost in the first year of ownership. Assuming a consistent 15% depreciation, even in the fourth and last year of warranty, your car will lose $4,605.93 in value.

In the fifth year (the first non-warranty year), the car will lose $3,915.05, and as each year progresses it will lose a progressively smaller amount. For the fifth year of ownership to be less cost-effective than a brand new car, you would have to incur over $3584.95 in expenses. In the sixth and subsequent years, the expense bill would have to be even higher to make it less cost-effective than a new car.
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  #83  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:04 PM
MonkeyCMonkeyDo MonkeyCMonkeyDo is offline
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  #84  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:16 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is online now
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+1

I'm not sure when E46 owners decided they were E36 owners.

It's the E36 that is a timeless classic. Great handling, great straight lines, streamlined appearance, very sleek.

The E46 is the puffed-up bloated version of the E36, blech. And the E90 is the over-Bangled yet remarkably bland version of the F30.

Both the E46 and E90 were necessary to get us to the best 3 Series ever, the F30, so I harbor no ill-will towards them. But neither the E46 or E90 can ever be considered "classic".

BJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
BJ, your car is starting to look a bit dated as compared to the F32. What are your neighbors going to say!
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
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  #85  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:59 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
That sounds like a good plan. I'm looking forward to seeing an F32 up close. It looks great in the pictures.
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  #86  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:29 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by hans007 View Post
I wouldn't own a VW / audi out of warranty (hell i will never own one again....) but I know the lower tier cars for BMW are generally more reliable. my dad has a 2004 X3 with 130k miles on it ...
My VAG product will hit a quarter million miles by the end of this week.
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  #87  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:42 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Most of the owners seem to change their own oil as the dealer price is over $300.
That is the key point to get a handle on. The more expensive the car, they more they charge you for the same exact work. It is the attitude "you are rich, pay up."

First of all, if we are talking about out of ownership until say 100K with a good mix of highway driving, chances are you will not need any major repairs.

Regardless of whether you will go 100K or 200K or more, if you are going to service your car at dealerships, it may not be worth it. This is true of Honda/Toyota as well. People think they are much cheaper, but they are not. They are only a little cheaper, and certainly not for everything. Someone mentioned failed ignition coils. They are $100 a pop for one of the latest Infinities if you want to stick with OEM. That's a lot more than for VAG coils. One of the dampers of a friend's Honda Pilot was leaking and was replaced under warranty for supposedly $700. That is exactly what I paid to have four Bilsteins installed on my car (labor and parts) at my indy. If you go to the dealer, take a jar of lubricant with you. They should be used only for special problems such as electronic sensors. For most things, indies, even non-specialists can handle it.
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  #88  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:45 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by MonkeyCMonkeyDo View Post
In my mind if you dont mind driving a 10 year old car then you shouldnt mind getting one that is cheaper to repair and needs repairs less often.
I think everyone would agree that driving a 10 year old 911 and a 10 year old Toyota Echo is not the same thing. And there are lots of in betweens and the differences remain great. Just because a car is 10 year old does not mean it is a POS, especially if it well maintained.
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  #89  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:46 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buildbright View Post
I had a friend (granted not a BMW) just replace a $1300 injector in her VW.
VW dealers are often thieves and rapists, and incompetent too. Speaking from experience.
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  #90  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:48 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Btw, many of the newer German engines don't need timing belt jobs anymore. If you have a Honda, which will typically have an interference engine, the timing belt job will cost you a petty penny.
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  #91  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:54 AM
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tturedraider tturedraider is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yobyot View Post
My first BMW was a 2006 E90 330i that I owned until May of 2012. I sold it in anticipation of buying my F30 335i.

Bottom line: BMWs are expensive to maintain. Normal wear and tear items are especially expensive: RFT tires, brakes and other wear and tear items.

As an example: late last year, I had a coil fail. Apparently, plenty of people had this problem. It makes no sense to replace a single coil so you are looking at hundres to replace all six. And you may as well replace the spark plugs when you replace the coils. Add in a brake job and a couple of fluid changes and you're looking at $1500 -- even when using OEM parts but a non-dealer mechanic. (I was fortunate to have found a great shop that really knows BMWs.)
What?! I had a single ignition coil fail. It made perfect sense to replace just that. And that's exactly what I did. No worries since.

I'm a slow worker and it takes me a hour to change my own oil. Costs me about $60. If I want to have it done it costs about $100. Every 7,500 miles is about twice a year, $200. Old days with dyno juice about $25 four times a year, every 3,000 miles and only 12,000 miles/year, $100 and those were the really old days.

Brakes - $250 in quality parts per axle. Granted not everyone can do it, but it's really not a hard diy. It's dirty and somewhat time consuming, but it's actually pretty straight forward.
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  #92  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:03 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post
I don't know about Honda, but Toyota is living purely on their reputation these days. My brother's three 2000-era Toyotas all went to the scrap heap while my '95 325i is still going strong (with 2nd owner since I sold it).

So while I generally agree that Toyota and Honda are more reliable, there's also reputation which often isn't warranted.
I completely agree. The differences are not that great to begin with.

Here is my own experience with own and family cars, which given the few data points is statistically meaningless, but here it is nonetheless:

1980s Corolla:
- tires shot by 26K because of horrendous factory alignment
- muffler all rusted out and punctured by 46K. New OEM part alone was $180, which was lots of dough back then. A literally back alley shop welded some third party muffler for $40 which lasted until I donated the car with 228K miles on it. Some OEM quality there
- radiator replaced by 60K, with much better third party brand that lasted the life of the car.
- rack and pinion steering was leaking buckets and had to be replace at barely over 100K.
- engine started burning oil a little before 100K.
- "major service" at dealer used to cost $200-300 (again, this was a long time ago).

1998 Camry: started burning oil before 100K. window motor died. Radiator showed micro-cracks and was replaced to the tune of $400 (OEM part). When it was time to do shocks, timing belt + whole works, I decided it was not confidence inspiring and it was not worth it. Yes, for a Camry! (But it was worth it for my VW) We dumped the Camry at Carmax for an inflated $6000 with about 110-120K miles on it.

1997 Accord: paint peel, lousy brakes, dead auto transmission (Honda picked only half the bill).

2000 Odyssey: full tranny replacement, fortunately under extended warranty.
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  #93  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:10 AM
bmw_or_audi bmw_or_audi is offline
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Btwy, here is something I realized.

Take a 15K Civic and a 60K BMW. Look at most maintenance/repair items. I think you would find that they would be maybe 1.25 to at most 2 times more for the BMW (not at dealers, obviously), not 4 times more. So from that perspective, it may actually make more sense to hang on to the expensive car longer and just toss the cheap car like a disposable item.
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  #94  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:33 AM
bennyg1 bennyg1 is offline
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AFAICT expensive dealer servicing is industry wide now, the business model of 'break even on the purchase, make money on the service'

Some more expensive than others, basically here in Oz everything but parts for Falcons and Commodores are imported so are ridiculously expensive. You are simply mad if you service dealer (e.g. fuel pump for my E34, genuine $513, OEM Bosch $185, some other OEM I didnt buy $135)

And will someone please mention that Camrys and Corollas have so little in common (4 wheels perhaps) with a well sorted decent spec euro (i.e. not entry level, sorry 316ti and A-class owners you dont drive real BMWs/MBs). Different leagues, of course there will be different costs involved. I think my $$ has got me a hell of a lot of car in my E34 540i, plus there is lots of rep around for oldskool BMWs.

Sense in maintenance saves dollars in fixes
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  #95  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:40 AM
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thumper_330 thumper_330 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The best part about leasing is the three year cycle:

Year 1: In love.
Year 2: Just a piece of furniture.
Year 3: Preparing for the divorce.

So by the time the F32 hits the streets in critical mass, it'll be Month 30 for me and I'll have negotiated my pull-ahead and I'll be waiting for my F30 LCI to arrive.

BJ
Heh... I can't disagree with you there, mate... but in year 2 of my 135i lease now and I'm still in love with this little car. Not sure I am going to be buying it out at the end of the lease or not (I am really craving a manual now that my knee surgeries are a year in my past!) but it's in no way a piece of furniture to me. It's at the moment my favourite car I have ever owned.
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  #96  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:50 AM
iamthewalrus iamthewalrus is offline
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Originally Posted by thumper_330 View Post
(snip)
Now, having said that; if I owned a 128i, or last generation 328i or 528i with that normally aspirated I6 and a manual transmission, then I think you could say that yes I would own that car out of warranty. The engine and transmission are likely bulletproof as history has shown on earlier versions of the same hardware. Or at least as bulletproof as you can get. And I'd forego a lot of the fancy electronics... in-car electronics just "age" too fast anyway and when they break they're usually expensive to replace.
(snip)
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.

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  #97  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:19 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
My thoughts *exactly*. I have a 2006 BMW X3 3.0i manual with 43K miles on it. Simple electronics, manual transmission, no turbos, and it's running really well. So far it has been just wear and tear items, with nothing significant. I plan to hold onto the X3 as long as possible, because neither Audi nor BMW will bring a manual-transmission SUV to America anymore.
Sounds like a wise plan. My old bimmer had MT and NA I/6, and it just kept going strong, and remained shinny. Probably should have kept it but no garage space left ....
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  #98  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:24 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi View Post
Here is my own experience with own and family cars, which given the few data points is statistically meaningless, but here it is nonetheless:
....
+1, same experience here.
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  #99  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:55 AM
X5 Tall Guy X5 Tall Guy is offline
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My family has owned five BMW's, still have four of them and they have all been great automobiles. My first was an '01 X5 3.0i that I sold with 118K miles. I had some minor repair bills outside of warranty (mostly worn suspension parts), but nothing major. Its new owner says it is still going strong after an additional 3+ years. Its repalcement is an '09 X5 3.5d and that vehicle has been fabulous. It only has 40K miles on it, so too new to report on repair bills.

My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!

Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!

In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
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  #100  
Old 12-12-2012, 11:33 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by X5 Tall Guy View Post
My family has owned five BMW's, still have four of them and they have all been great automobiles. My first was an '01 X5 3.0i that I sold with 118K miles. I had some minor repair bills outside of warranty (mostly worn suspension parts), but nothing major. Its new owner says it is still going strong after an additional 3+ years. Its repalcement is an '09 X5 3.5d and that vehicle has been fabulous. It only has 40K miles on it, so too new to report on repair bills.

My son and wife have E46's. We bought my wife's '04 330i new and it has been a great car. Yes, we have dealt with the usual E46 issues (coolant system overhaul, valve cover gasket, etc), but at 107K miles it is going strong and the repair bills have not been stifling. My son's '02 325i has had a few more issues. It has 125K miles and he is the third owner (bought it 1.5 years ago at 105K miles and got it's complete service history). The biggest thing that has plagued him is the air conditioner. It has needed a new compressor and now has a leaking condensor. The compressor wasn't terrible as we found one at a salvage yard. The leaking condensor is a big, expensive issue, but the leak rate is slow and for the time being, a periodic recharge is the better solution. Still a great car!

Our newest addition to the fleet is my wife's '13 335i. We picked it up at the Performance Center on 11/30. So, way too new to comment on. Awesome car!

In the end, our experince after almost 400K miles spread across four+ BMW's is that if you maintain your car (we have followed the manufacturer suggested maintenance intervals), the costs of out of warranty repairs are not excessive. Everyone's threshold for excessive is different, but our enjoyment of the cars and the brand far outweigh the repair costs. Just my opinion...
Your statement is the exact reason why some people feel BMW's should or should not be owned outside of warranty. It all depends on your threshold for excessive repair costs. Regardless, I maintain my view that these are well built cars and are well worth owning up to 200k miles when comapred with the cost of buying a new comparable car. The key is do you see the value in keeping and maintaining an out of warranty BMW or would you rather just lease a new one every 3 years. Both are fine as long as it fits your needs and wants.
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