Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)

E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-13-2012, 10:09 PM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
Michelin Pilot Super Sports: More Understeer



I recently put on Michelin Pilot Super Sports on my E90 with 18" staggered 162's. Even they are fairly new (under 500 mile brake-in) I notice a severe understeer in the corners.

Before these, I had Nitto's (non RFT) and thought they were't that good due to softness. But, they behaved fairly well in the corners. They weren't balanced as a non-staggered set-up (not too much grip in the back due to extra wide tires in the back) but understeer was reasonable I thought.

These PSS's ride better, gives a quiet ride, feels smooth, all that what others have mentioned, except cornering. Today I tested out by throwing the car in to a corner and the car understeered so much that the front started to get washed out. I am running correct tire pressure and the car seem to be within alignment specs (even though I haven't aligned it after new tires)

Anyone else noticed this?
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 12-14-2012, 01:18 AM
dmatre dmatre is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: was CLT, now LAX
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 161
Mein Auto: 2011 E90 328i
Our cars are set up relatively neutral, so if you have installed new tires front/back, I would think that the understeer was due to driver input rather than the tires themselves.

"Throwing a car" into a corner has a lot of variables, only one of which is the tire. Road surface, camber, speed, throttle position, rate of steering input, etc, all have an influence.

The best way to figure it out is to find a skidpad and work up to speed, then you can check the balance.

There's no inherent reason why the tires would understeer by themselves.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-14-2012, 03:41 AM
MMME30W's Avatar
MMME30W MMME30W is offline
Super Moderator
Location: On The Move
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14,175
Mein Auto: 2009 W906
No. What tire pressure specifically are you running?
__________________
“Character is doing the right thing when nobody’s looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that’s right is to get by, and the only thing that’s wrong is to get caught.”

- J.C. Watts Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-14-2012, 04:15 AM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
I am running 36/42.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatre View Post
"Throwing a car" into a corner has a lot of variables, only one of which is the tire. Road surface, camber, speed, throttle position, rate of steering input, etc, all have an influence.
.
I do understand your concern. This is a base E90 without sports package. It came with 16" from the dealer and those had good balance. As Clarkson say, "the sensation of the car turning around your hip". After putting the staggered set up, it ssssligggghty leaned towards understeer and I was fine with it. I did the alignment about 10K miles ago and I live where roads are excellent. So I can't really think of my alignment being out... at least that much.

There's deffinitely more roll... front give out sooner... Just feel like something could be wrong. I am sure this could be many things along with the alignment, suspension components being worn out, improper tire pressures, etc. May be the back tires are sitting correct now compared to old worn out ones, they give more... grip? May be these tires are comparatively THAT grippy, so the whole car sticks more?

I will wait few months and get another alignment.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-14-2012, 05:23 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is online now
Moderator
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,371
Mein Auto: 2014 328i Sport Line MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I am running 36/42.



I do understand your concern. This is a base E90 without sports package. It came with 16" from the dealer and those had good balance. As Clarkson say, "the sensation of the car turning around your hip". After putting the staggered set up, it ssssligggghty leaned towards understeer and I was fine with it. I did the alignment about 10K miles ago and I live where roads are excellent. So I can't really think of my alignment being out... at least that much.

There's deffinitely more roll... front give out sooner... Just feel like something could be wrong. I am sure this could be many things along with the alignment, suspension components being worn out, improper tire pressures, etc. May be the back tires are sitting correct now compared to old worn out ones, they give more... grip? May be these tires are comparatively THAT grippy, so the whole car sticks more?

I will wait few months and get another alignment.
My guess is that these tires, with all of their grip are amplifying the understeer that is normal with a staggered set up. If you want more neutral handling you may have to modify your suspension to lessen the roll.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-14-2012, 05:48 AM
Robin128 Robin128 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cardiff, Wales
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 175
Send a message via ICQ to Robin128
Mein Auto: 335i auto, Volvo T5 man
The basics for those like me who are unfamiliar...

http://www.tsw.com/faq.php
__________________


One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-14-2012, 05:55 AM
MP3_E46's Avatar
MP3_E46 MP3_E46 is offline
Code/wrench Monkey
Location: Atlanta
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,052
Mein Auto: Miata NC2
Check pressures, let a few psi out of the fronts/ add a few to the rear.

If you really want rid of the under-steer buy a stiffer rear sway bar. Might want to get an adjustable one for when you tire of swapping ends on highway entrance ramps etc
__________________


Six Euro Deliveries since December 1998 (Owned E46, E90, E91, E92 and E93)

28 vehicles in 26 years of driving so far. Guess I like cars
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:01 AM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
Thank you guys for the replies.

I used to post on a different E90 board (let's not mention any names ). This board seems to have way more knowledgable people sharing.

Since this is a non-sport package car, I was planning on adding coil-overs that include Koni shocks lowered about 1" from factory height, M3 front control arm set, M3 rear bushings, and M3 rear sway while leaving the front sway along.

I guess I have to break these tires in more and see..
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:10 AM
bear-avhistory's Avatar
bear-avhistory bear-avhistory is offline
2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
Location: NC - USA
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,191
Mein Auto: 2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
You really can't tell a whole lot about new tires for the first 400-500 miles till the mold release compound wears off.
__________________
Kevin

CURRENT:
2014 BMW 435M-Sport MPPK/MPE
2013 BMW 135is 6MT convt
2009 Ford Expedition 4X4 EL - 2009 V-Star
2003 Nissan Xterra 4X4 - 1998 Ford Ranger 4X4 Splash
FFR Cobra Mk-IV work in progress
PAST:
Very, Very Long List
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-14-2012, 08:53 AM
Mark K's Avatar
Mark K Mark K is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Cincinnati, OH
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,098
Mein Auto: 2011 E92 335i MT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin128 View Post
The basics for those like me who are unfamiliar...

http://www.tsw.com/faq.php

From the web page ...

"This is typically done on rear wheel drive cars such as Infiniti G35, Nissan 350Z, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, VW, Ford Mustang, and others. "

Ooops. I hope they don't put chains on the rear tires of their Audi and VW in the snow ...

__________________

_____________________________________________

2011 E92 335i 6MT ZSP ZCW (ED May 17th 2010)

2013 118d BMWNA Special Edition. Black on black cloth (yay!), 5 door hatchback, 140hp diesel. Special edition items: factory debadge| "VW", "Golf" and "TDI" badges factory applied | MT | Standard go flat tires | Spare tire (yay!) | No moonroof (yay!) .
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-14-2012, 09:02 AM
terranuser terranuser is offline
Summer is coming!
Location: Ellicott City, Maryland
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 106
Send a message via Skype™ to terranuser
Mein Auto: TL, R350
With staggered setup, you are naturally introducing understeer (if non-staggered setup was neutral), because you are putting more tire at the back.

It is possible that Pilot SS is much grippier than Nitto you had and the feedback you are getting is just amplified.

Stiffening the rear end (e.g. rear sway bar) can make the car more prone to oversteer.
__________________
Learning something new everyday
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-14-2012, 10:28 AM
fun2drive's Avatar
fun2drive fun2drive is offline
BMWCCA 149159
Location: Panhandle of Florida
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,623
Mein Auto: 335 vert//M3/4/ 13Outback
Generally speaking new tires always seem to have less grip then a set that were worn down to the wear bars up to a point. The tread depth on new tires contribute to this. Thus when changing over from one set of tires to the a new set of the exact same brand the new tires seem to ride better but handle worse which is actually true because you are not getting tread squirm. Is that perchance what is happening to you new PSSs?
This is the reason when racing you use tires shaved to have minimal tread.
Just a thought if camber-caster-toe and tire pressures don't provide the suitable handling...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-14-2012, 10:45 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 600
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Did your car come with a staggered setup? If not there you go. Increase tire pressure in front or decrease in rear (or both) can help.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:01 AM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
Quote:
Originally Posted by terranuser View Post
With staggered setup, you are naturally introducing understeer (if non-staggered setup was neutral), because you are putting more tire at the back.

It is possible that Pilot SS is much grippier than Nitto you had and the feedback you are getting is just amplified.

Stiffening the rear end (e.g. rear sway bar) can make the car more prone to oversteer.

This is what I am going to go with so far.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:04 AM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdorman View Post
Did your car come with a staggered setup? If not there you go. Increase tire pressure in front or decrease in rear (or both) can help.
It didn't because this is not a sports-package car. When I put these wheels on, they came with half worn Nitto's. They did introduce understeer, but not as much as with these wheels. Most the posts on these thread clear things up for me
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:16 AM
rdorman rdorman is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 600
Mein Auto: 2000 imola red 740i Sport
Great to hear. Play with the pressures until you are happy. I would not go below the pressures recommended for the staggered setup. So you could set the rear at the min. recommended pressure and increase the front until you are happy.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12-14-2012, 11:18 AM
sle39lvr sle39lvr is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Florida
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 126
Mein Auto: 08 E90
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdorman View Post
Great to hear. Play with the pressures until you are happy. I would not go below the pressures recommended for the staggered setup. So you could set the rear at the min. recommended pressure and increase the front until you are happy.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:41 AM
andrew b's Avatar
andrew b andrew b is offline
flâneur en cabriolet
Location: Lexington, KY
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 925
Mein Auto: 2007 E93 N54
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdorman View Post
Great to hear. Play with the pressures until you are happy. I would not go below the pressures recommended for the staggered setup. So you could set the rear at the min. recommended pressure and increase the front until you are happy.
This. You can dramatically change the characteristics for over/understeer with pressure adjustments. Strongly suggest doing this before investing in suspension modifications.

On my square setup, I've found a change as little as 1 pound on the front or rear has a noticible effect. I played with it until I found the balance I like. I started with the pressure in the manual for the speed and loads I typically drive, and went from there. I'm now at 34.5/35.5 and have just the right amount of TTO....

Last edited by andrew b; 12-15-2012 at 06:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms