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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:07 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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The Tesla S is a nitch car and a very expensive one at that. Many believe that the electric car is nothing more than a stepping stone to other technologies such as hydrogen fuel cell. If one lives in the colder climate, the batteries will not be as efficient, driving range will be reduced. Its a nice second car or toy if one can affort it.
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  #52  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:17 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post

So with all this talk of the Tesla don't get the wrong impression - The Tesla can't hold a candle to the M5.
Nor should it....
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  #53  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:24 AM
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I very seriously doubt that the average household has more than two cars for TWO drivers. Think about it.
I looked it up last night, as of 2009 there were 1.03 cars per licensed driver in the US. I don't think Tesla would mind capturing a 3% market share.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:25 AM
wildvlad wildvlad is offline
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I looked it up last night, as of 2009 there were 1.03 cars per licensed driver in the US. I don't think Tesla would mind capturing a 3% market share.
To do that they need to compete with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Bugatti, Lotus, ... Basically their Roadster was supposed to do that.

Model S supposed to actually compete with BMW 5 and Mercedes E type of cars where they have problems:

1. Rated distance to drive is 300miles at 55mph. Sorry, but it's a torture to drive THAT car 10-15mph under speed limit.

2. Having problem with "refueling" - normally you either have to spend full day charging or get just "half a tank" charge when doing that outside.

Tesla Model S is a good car, but it has so many "BUTs"
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  #55  
Old 12-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Emilner Emilner is offline
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It only has one but- don't take it on long trips. For everything else it looks pretty awesome....
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  #56  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:01 AM
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It only has one but- don't take it on long trips. For everything else it looks pretty awesome....
thats why i am lobbying for battery under hood
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  #57  
Old 12-17-2012, 11:18 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by wildvlad View Post
To do that they need to compete with Ferrari, Lamborghini, Maserati, Bugatti, Lotus, ... Basically their Roadster was supposed to do that.

Model S supposed to actually compete with BMW 5 and Mercedes E type of cars where they have problems:

1. Rated distance to drive is 300miles at 55mph. Sorry, but it's a torture to drive THAT car 10-15mph under speed limit.

2. Having problem with "refueling" - normally you either have to spend full day charging or get just "half a tank" charge when doing that outside.

Tesla Model S is a good car, but it has so many "BUTs"
Take a look at your I-drive avg. speed. It's not going to be above 55mph.
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  #58  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:14 PM
sdbrandon sdbrandon is offline
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I really feel good when I think about the Tesla products.

They are american, and as technic pointed out, they dont depend on oil countries, which is a great thing.

they offer extra passenger seating in the trunk/storage area under hood which has hardly impressed any.

Instead If they had a huge battery pack under the hood and raise the range to some 600 - 700 miles... that would silence the critics harping on the 300 mile range.
Don't forget to factor in all the envronmental damage required to produce the batteries.
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  #59  
Old 12-17-2012, 03:40 PM
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Don't forget to factor in all the envronmental damage required to produce the batteries.
Don't forget the environmental damage required to do anything as a human....
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  #60  
Old 12-17-2012, 03:49 PM
MELLOWYELLOW06 MELLOWYELLOW06 is offline
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  #61  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:31 PM
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Oil as oil products, yes, that's correct. But we have quite some way to go with crude oil and gasoline imports.
...
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  #62  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:36 PM
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America is a net exporter of oil.
We import approximately 3.5 billion barrels of crude per year...
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  #63  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Take a look at your I-drive avg. speed. It's not going to be above 55mph.
They rated not at "average", but @55mph. Anytime you exceed that - you eat some extras from your battery, when you go slower - you don't add enough of battery life back (square is really bad function. There is some math/physics behind that: aerodynamic resistance which starts playing major role at highway speeds is proportional to square of the speed. Think about it.

Also, rated trip distance assumes no air conditioner/no heater/no radio.

BTW, I have no problem averaging 70-75mph on long trips. (excluding stops).
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  #64  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:26 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by wildvlad View Post
They rated not at "average", but @55mph. Anytime you exceed that - you eat some extras from your battery, when you go slower - you don't add enough of battery life back (square is really bad function. There is some math/physics behind that: aerodynamic resistance which starts playing major role at highway speeds is proportional to square of the speed. Think about it.

Also, rated trip distance assumes no air conditioner/no heater/no radio.

BTW, I have no problem averaging 70-75mph on long trips. (excluding stops).
I would hope most people understand that energy consumption varies on usage. I can't see why you would hold an electric to a different standard. It will always be some sort of typical estimate on the specifications. These car are hot now so I guess we will soon get real world numbers from owners.

Last edited by solstice; 12-17-2012 at 08:34 PM.
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  #65  
Old 12-18-2012, 03:04 AM
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AggieKnight AggieKnight is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I would hope most people understand that energy consumption varies on usage. I can't see why you would hold an electric to a different standard. It will always be some sort of typical estimate on the specifications. These car are hot now so I guess we will soon get real world numbers from owners.
Indeed. There are some of us very interested in them (myself included).

I looked at a Tesla S on a trip to San Jose earlier this year and was pretty blown away. Didn't drive one though. If they had a dealer closer to Atlanta, I may have bought one.

What i really need is a car that can drive 120-150 miles per day. That would cover commuting and (most of) the wife's shopping trips.

Glancing at their website, I see that they are opening a dealership in the ATL next march. Should make things interesting in a few years.
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  #66  
Old 12-18-2012, 11:09 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Friend of mine who already has a Tesla Roadster is expecting delivery of her Model S this week. Looking forward to taking a spin at some point in the near future.
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  #67  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
We import approximately 3.5 billion barrels of crude per year...
Whether imported or not is rather a short time nationalistic view on the usage of oil.
As soon all the Asian people start using oil the way you do in the USA...
Well, do I have to explain?

And why wouldn't they in say 10 years time?
Todays electric vehicles will not do; too impractical.

So from where I am sitting it is a strange phenomenon that american housewives use gas guzzling trucks for their shopping.
In european towns like London, Paris and Amsterdam these cars start to be banned from the centers.
Just saying.

Last edited by Sophisto; 12-18-2012 at 12:31 PM.
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  #68  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:38 PM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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While I don't own either an F10 or a Tesla...I have to agree the future is electric (and as a bonafide "car guy" it pains me to say that). I was so intrigued by electric (as a car guy - not a "greenie") that one day this happened:

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread....y-BMW-M5-Owner
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  #69  
Old 12-18-2012, 12:48 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Todays electric vehicles will not do; too impractical.
I agree, anyone who think a $100k+ Testa S will solve the world's oil problem in the future is fooling themself. In fact, many view electric cars as a stepping stone to future technologies. Unless power engineers can design a battery system that can charge in less than 5 mins and have a range of at least 300 mileage, electric cars will remains impratical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
So from where I am sitting it is a strange phenomenon that american housewives use gas guzzling trucks for their shopping.
In european towns like London, Paris and Amsterdam these cars start to be banned from the centers.
Just saying.
I am pretty sure this topic have came up before, but the problem is there is no penalty for driving these gas guzzlers. There is a small gas guzzlers tax when one purchase the vehicle, but that is hardly enough to deter the middle or upper class house wives. What we really need is a annual gas guzzlers tax for these irresponsible owners. Perhaps an annual gas guzzlers tax of say $5000 will change their mind.
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  #70  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:21 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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I would prefer someone in silicon valley to come up with another and better way for storing electricity, over being taxed as we are overhere.
Total running cost for a new X5M is around 4 dollar/mile in Holland, taxes on the car, gas and road use consume that money.
Electric cars are not taxed, but the impracticallity makes that they are not yet widely used. Battery capacity and charging time are to blame for that.
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  #71  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:30 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
I agree, anyone who think a $100k+ Testa S will solve the world's oil problem in the future is fooling themself. In fact, many view electric cars as a stepping stone to future technologies. Unless power engineers can design a battery system that can charge in less than 5 mins and have a range of at least 300 mileage, electric cars will remains impratical.

I am pretty sure this topic have came up before, but the problem is there is no penalty for driving these gas guzzlers. There is a small gas guzzlers tax when one purchase the vehicle, but that is hardly enough to deter the middle or upper class house wives. What we really need is a annual gas guzzlers tax for these irresponsible owners. Perhaps an annual gas guzzlers tax of say $5000 will change their mind.
So what makes your car OK as opposed to say an SUV? No one needs a 300hp 535 either. There are almost always more efficient options out there, and each of us could if we choose get by with something smaller. Until, of course, you find yourself in need of something some bigger, something that can tow 8000lbs, or something that can seat 7 or 8 passengers....

On a related note, it's something of a non-sequitur to bring up European driving habits and compare them to US habits. As the old saying goes, the difference between Europeans and Americans is that Americans think 100 years is old and Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance.... Never the twain shall meet...

Either way, pretty much every single one of us here drives more car than we need. We are all guilty of the same crime.

What we should be doing is applauding Tesla for doing an excellent job with their first ever new from the ground-up vehicle and for providing choice.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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  #72  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:42 PM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Swajames, I follow what you are saying.
Especially applauding innovative industry like Teslas.
But what kind of world do you believe you are living in that also in the USA cars will not consume less petrol over ten years then they do now?
Do you believe that there will be a future for overbuilt cars that do not deliver?
Heavy hauling cars for shopping, seven seaters for single person commuting, that sort of thing?
Sure Stealth will be driving his M5 too fast and will not bother, another one enjoys his M3 or 911, but those are the exceptions.
It will be interesting to see if the electric vehicle will blossom in the next decade.

Last edited by Sophisto; 12-18-2012 at 02:45 PM.
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  #73  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:46 PM
MELLOWYELLOW06 MELLOWYELLOW06 is offline
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I just thought that picture was funny and clever.
Would never trade in the 6, 5 or the Mustang in for a Tesla, Fisker, or any other electric buggy.
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  #74  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:57 PM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
So what makes your car OK as opposed to say an SUV? No one needs a 300hp 535 either. There are almost always more efficient options out there, and each of us could if we choose get by with something smaller. Until, of course, you find yourself in need of something some bigger, something that can tow 8000lbs, or something that can seat 7 or 8 passengers....

On a related note, it's something of a non-sequitur to bring up European driving habits and compare them to US habits. As the old saying goes, the difference between Europeans and Americans is that Americans think 100 years is old and Europeans think 100 miles is a long distance.... Never the twain shall meet...
The 335i gets 30 MPG highway and 20 city, its not the most efficient car, but technically not a gas guzzler. I agree that there are almost always more efficient options out there. Even if you drive a Prius, you can do better. Again, we are not talking about big SUV owners who have a need for towing, we are talking about all the trophy wives who drive around in there 3 ton SUV all by themself.
So what does daily driving distance have to do with the size of the car?
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  #75  
Old 12-18-2012, 04:13 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
Swajames, I follow what you are saying.
Especially applauding innovative industry like Teslas.
But what kind of world do you believe you are living in that also in the USA cars will not consume less petrol over ten years then they do now?
Do you believe that there will be a future for overbuilt cars that do not deliver?
Heavy hauling cars for shopping, seven seaters for single person commuting, that sort of thing?
Sure Stealth will be driving his M5 too fast and will not bother, another one enjoys his M3 or 911, but those are the exceptions.
It will be interesting to see if the electric vehicle will blossom in the next decade.
There does seem to be a definite trend over here in that smaller and more fuel efficient cars are becoming increasingly popular. Whether that's connected to rising and fluctuating gas prices or just that the smaller cars on sale here today are much better than their forebears remains to be seen, but I do think there is much more recognition that there has to be some degree of sustainability and responsibility in the cars we choose to drive. Diesel is also really starting to take off here, another welcome development. My own view is that like it or not, electric cars are here to stay. While oil is no doubt finite, we're not going to run out of electricity any time soon. What I like about Tesla is that it's a great car in its own right and it's asking owners to make fewer compromises - and it's a much more credible alternative as a consequence.
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