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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #151  
Old 01-11-2013, 06:03 AM
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tim330i tim330i is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Gees.. not to sound like a broken record, but... again... what exactly do you mean by the tip in?
There is a good explanation here -

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=561263
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  #152  
Old 01-11-2013, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Gees.. not to sound like a broken record, but... again... what exactly do you mean by the tip in?
When I press the gas (even if I literally fully floor it), the car has a 2 second delay before it moves. Than it moves abruptly as if it just remember it should be moving. Last night it was embaressing because I stopped to ask the valet a question. I press the gas, and the car did not move for 2 seconds. Than it looked like I was speeding off angry .
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  #153  
Old 01-11-2013, 06:54 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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From that thread:

"You are at a busy intersection trying to squeeze your way out into the heavy traffic. You see an opening and mash the gas pedal, but the car does not seem to respond immediately…........... it hesitates…........... or it slowly pokes. You want to open the door, stick your foot down on the pavement (remember the Flintstones) and get the car moving…........... the person in the car behind you is screaming at you, GO! GO! GO! FOOL! …...........WHAT ARE YOU WAITING ON? You frantically keep mashing the gas pedal and all of the sudden, wham…........... you are jerked into oblivion and take off…........... heading straight for the hospital for one of two reasons, you either have whiplash or someone has plowed into the side of you because you were poking for too long.

OK, OK…........... so maybe that is a tiny bit of an exaggeration, but I also bet it ain't too far from several real stories, if not nearly spot on."


OK, then I clearly don't have it and never have... far from it actually. I press and the thing just zooms off with a nice push into the seat. Hesitation? Not a bit. There is only about .5s delay in takeoff which is super minor and not a safety concern (yes, I have written about it too, but it is really insignificant in the scheme of things). If it was a 2 second delay, then yes, but less that 1s.... is not a problem. At least not the way the tip-in was described above.

Best of luck guys, it should not be that difficult to get the cars fixed if they behave as described here. Just get an new 535 for a test drive with the shop manager and show them how it performs differently.

UNLESS, of course, that description is full of **** and a large exaggeration. In which case, I repeat my question: what is tip-in?
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  #154  
Old 01-11-2013, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
In which case, I repeat my question: what is tip-in?
Quote:
Throttle tip-in is defined as a fast depression of the throttle
From Vehicle Powertrain Systems: Integration and Optimization By David Crolla, Behrooz Mashadi

http://books.google.com/books?id=N8r...%20out&f=false
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  #155  
Old 01-12-2013, 02:35 PM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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Is the issue represented graphically something like this:



Your foot's position on pedal is the nice linear purple line...the car's response looks more like the yellow line. Basically, a screwed up throttle map (having nothing to do with transmissions, turbo lag, or anything like that). My guess is that it is a lazy map combined with a crappy learning algorithm that makes it worse over time. As drivers get aggressive with the throttle (trying to overcome the lazy map) the learning algorithm might be doing something stupid like "keep the throttle curve shallow initially, but then sharply increase since this driver likes more throttle" instead of just making it mirror what the driver's foot is doing.
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  #156  
Old 01-12-2013, 02:40 PM
jgscott987 jgscott987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
Is the issue represented graphically something like this:



Your foot's position on pedal is the nice linear purple line...the car's response looks more like the yellow line. Basically, a screwed up throttle map (having nothing to do with transmissions, turbo lag, or anything like that). My guess is that it is a lazy map combined with a crappy learning algorithm that makes it worse over time. As drivers get aggressive with the throttle (trying to overcome the lazy map) the learning algorithm might be doing something stupid like "keep the throttle curve shallow initially, but then sharply increase since this driver likes more throttle" instead of just making it mirror what the driver's foot is doing.
That's a good graph, but I think the pink line represents a normal car's speed increasing over time. Pedal position would essentially be a horizontal line (holding the throttle steady). The yellow line is right on- slow response for about a second, then a lurch.

Last edited by jgscott987; 01-12-2013 at 02:41 PM.
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  #157  
Old 01-12-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
Is the issue represented graphically something like this:

Your foot's position on pedal is the nice linear purple line...the car's response looks more like the yellow line. Basically, a screwed up throttle map (having nothing to do with transmissions, turbo lag, or anything like that). My guess is that it is a lazy map combined with a crappy learning algorithm that makes it worse over time. As drivers get aggressive with the throttle (trying to overcome the lazy map) the learning algorithm might be doing something stupid like "keep the throttle curve shallow initially, but then sharply increase since this driver likes more throttle" instead of just making it mirror what the driver's foot is doing.
Awesome graphical representation of this issue. I also think your rationale is spot on. I wish BMW could figure out a proper solution.
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  #158  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:31 PM
cblandin cblandin is offline
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Sadly guys, I don't even own an F10, but I did drive an X3 28i and experienced this exact issue on the test drive (actually was a big strike against it). I might have overlooked it if I hadn't just come off a year spent diagnosing a similar weird throttle mapping on my E39 M5 - pain in the butt and I totally feel for you guys. BMW really needs to get their act together on this. My guess is that if you ever so gently baby the throttle (moving it slooooooooowly) coming off the line it is much less noticeable as the car moves through the lazy portion of the map, slowly starts the mass of the car moving and then "transitions" to the more aggressive ramp. It isn't that there is ZERO throttle movement, just a ridiculously mild level. All of this, I'm sure, stems from what I call a mileage "cheat". BMW undoubtedly gets better mpg doing this kind of junk, but let's face it....it is cheesy. I mean, they could install eggs under the gas pedal too and achieve better mileage, but that would obviously be a cheat too. This is just bad programming IMO.
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  #159  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:33 PM
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This issue is real ..... BMW dealer and escalated to BMWNA on my F10 535i would not acknowledge and provide a software or other solution so after 6 BMWs of various 3 -5- 7 series I'm out til we are buying cars ...... not buggy software ......
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  #160  
Old 01-15-2013, 12:16 AM
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I did the update today and it did not take 8+ hrs like last time. SA told me it's a quick one and does not need a full refresh.

Anyway, I have to say the initial review is it down shift faster than the old update. There is still a delay, but much quicker and smoother.

my first test drive cause a big side span on a right turn as I put my normal force in = everything the same as I drove without this update.....it used to have a little delay and a miner side span. I guess I have to adjust to it..for now.. my 2nd and 3rd tried also had the same thing......interesting......the new update really has something to do with it??? maybe.....

did low speed and high speed re-acceleration test and both fine, but not perfect

To let the car used to my driving style as I posted before, it already made all 4 tires gone at 10200 miles by hitting the gas pretty hard every time and consistantly.

I have to say my car at 10K is for sure much smooth and accelerates better and I would believe this is it.....probably.

Just to share what I felt on the first day after the new update.

My SA told me there is nothing wrong after their test drive and they updated it because I did my update last time and now eligible for 2nd update as it's to enhance the previous update

will see....
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  #161  
Old 01-15-2013, 05:44 AM
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Ccgp, what do you mean by "miner side span"??? Are you saying you lost traction in a turn and it turned sideways?
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  #162  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:05 AM
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My car is in now. Unfortunately, they tell me that it has the latest software, so there is nothing they can do. They have elevated to BMWNA via a PUMA case.

At least they acknowledged the issue....
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  #163  
Old 01-15-2013, 06:11 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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That was sort of expected, Needs, wasn't it? I mean, you've had your car for over 1.5 yrs now, eh? What were the chances that you were running some pre-stone-age version of the software that wouldn't shift the gears right? They knew how to design cars long before your car happened, so perhaps it is mechanical after all...?
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  #164  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:08 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
That was sort of expected, Needs, wasn't it? I mean, you've had your car for over 1.5 yrs now, eh? What were the chances that you were running some pre-stone-age version of the software that wouldn't shift the gears right? They knew how to design cars long before your car happened, so perhaps it is mechanical after all...?
Was not sure if the 2.8.3 software would have done anything.

In any event, this visit was largely to comply with BMWNA wishes that I bring it in "one more time" after opening the case with them. The car has been in multiple times for this issue and I am tired of it.
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  #165  
Old 01-15-2013, 07:26 AM
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chuck92116 chuck92116 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cblandin View Post
Sadly guys, I don't even own an F10, but I did drive an X3 28i and experienced this exact issue on the test drive (actually was a big strike against it). I might have overlooked it if I hadn't just come off a year spent diagnosing a similar weird throttle mapping on my E39 M5 - pain in the butt and I totally feel for you guys. BMW really needs to get their act together on this. My guess is that if you ever so gently baby the throttle (moving it slooooooooowly) coming off the line it is much less noticeable as the car moves through the lazy portion of the map, slowly starts the mass of the car moving and then "transitions" to the more aggressive ramp. It isn't that there is ZERO throttle movement, just a ridiculously mild level. All of this, I'm sure, stems from what I call a mileage "cheat". BMW undoubtedly gets better mpg doing this kind of junk, but let's face it....it is cheesy. I mean, they could install eggs under the gas pedal too and achieve better mileage, but that would obviously be a cheat too. This is just bad programming IMO.
All BMW's do it ever since drive by wire was added (electronic throttle) . All other car makes like Lexus do it as well. There is a balance between fuel savings and performance.

That balance will never satisfy all the people all the time unless BMW adds an iDrive config that lets you set the amount agressiveness vs. MPG savings.

I realize it is annoying, hell my 2005 645 did the same thing although not quite as noticable.

Newer fancy cars generally have issues with auto-tranny programming or the throttle, or both. It is the new normal now.
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Last edited by chuck92116; 01-15-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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  #166  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:01 AM
Art234 Art234 is offline
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Mine was done yesterday. I mentioned the symptom to the service advisor and the shop foreman, and without hesitation they agreed to check the software version and do the update. I picked the car up last night, didn't have too much time to drive, but it does appear to be responding better. We'll see what happens with time, when the car "learns" my habits all over again. Also, only the trip computer and trip odometer were reset by the update-no other settings.

I'll keep you all posted.
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  #167  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:06 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92116 View Post
All BMW's do it ever since drive by wire was added (electronic throttle) . All other car makes like Lexus do it as well. There is a balance between fuel savings and performance.

That balance will never satisfy all the people all the time unless BMW adds an iDrive config that lets you set the amount agressiveness vs. MPG savings.

I realize it is annoying, hell my 2005 645 did the same thing although not quite as noticable.

Newer fancy cars generally have issues with auto-tranny programming or the throttle, or both. It is the new normal now.
Sorry, I don't agree. I have driven several 2012 and up 535's and 528's that are smooth as silk pulling away. Every F30 328 I have had, including the one I have now, has been smooth. There is no thought involved with applying the throttle. It is natural.

Compared to my car, every stop and re-application is a conscious act on how to pull away without feeling like you don't know how to drive.
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  #168  
Old 01-15-2013, 08:57 AM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Yes, your car is definitely f^&*( up, Needs and nobody here, most likely (myself included), understands what you're talking about. Mine is a dream to drive (at least the take offs are generally awesome) and honestly, I am surprised you've tortured yourself for so long struggling with that. Wish you had traded it in long ago, perhaps? (So that BMW could explain to another potential buyer how all is well with that rough acceleration).
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  #169  
Old 01-15-2013, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
Yes, your car is definitely f^&*( up, Needs and nobody here, most likely (myself included), understands what you're talking about. Mine is a dream to drive (at least the take offs are generally awesome) and honestly, I am surprised you've tortured yourself for so long struggling with that. Wish you had traded it in long ago, perhaps? (So that BMW could explain to another potential buyer how all is well with that rough acceleration).
Calm down dude. Flagged.
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  #170  
Old 01-15-2013, 09:28 AM
DavidZ DavidZ is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
My car is in now. Unfortunately, they tell me that it has the latest software, so there is nothing they can do. They have elevated to BMWNA via a PUMA case.

At least they acknowledged the issue....
My car was in for some body work (I was rear ended before Christmas) and I asked them to take a look at the throttle/tranny issue. I was expecting the "that's the way it's supposed to drive" response, but the guy agreed that it needs the update. He said the car drove even worse than I described.
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  #171  
Old 01-15-2013, 04:29 PM
douggie douggie is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Compared to my car, every stop and re-application is a conscious act on how to pull away without feeling like you don't know how to drive.
My feelings exactly regarding the throttle response (although mine is more on the re acceleration hesitation while on the way). I'm always trying to anticipate what the car is going to do. It's just not natural. Totally kills the driving pleasure, which was not much to start with. Sigh.

Last edited by douggie; 01-15-2013 at 06:23 PM.
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  #172  
Old 01-16-2013, 07:42 PM
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Ccgp, what do you mean by "miner side span"??? Are you saying you lost traction in a turn and it turned sideways?
right. like I said, I think this SW does changed something noticeable than last update. it downshift more faster and aggressive. Even you stop at a right light, I will try my best to explain here, a less than a second thing on raising the rpm a little, than stay at 500. don't know what's that for.

last night, someone tried to pass me from another line to go on the highway ( why people always like to do that...I guess no one wants to wait in-line anymore ), I just step on the gas and guess what, the car "immediately" jumped on my action, even with a little spin on the tires ( i believe I felt it did twice, on shifting to next gear also ), and the rest is history. this for sure never happens before under normal mode, not even at sports mode probablly, can't recall.

However, if I do not floor it, the delay is still there, but the gap is much smaller.

hope this helps on people who interested to know, but again, this is on my car, and not necessary the same on yours...
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  #173  
Old 01-16-2013, 08:02 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Even you stop at a right light, I will try my best to explain here, a less than a second thing on raising the rpm a little, than stay at 500. don't know what's that for.
wt.... were you trying to say here... is a mystery. gees. English ain't that hard, come on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccgp View Post
last night, someone tried to pass me from another line to go on the highway ( why people always like to do that...I guess no one wants to wait in-line anymore ), I just step on the gas and guess what, the car "immediately" jumped on my action, even with a little spin on the tires ...
If you are one of those jerks who block on-ramps by slowly accelerating and doing maybe 50 when the merge lane ends, then sorry, but you are a jerk. On-ramps are intended for fast acceleration and merging with the flowing traffic. I am stunned you were surprised that someone was trailing and trying to pass you if you were blocking the acceleration ramp. You must be a horrible driver. Sorry, but this is why drivers are called stupid on this side of the pond and why consequently speed limits are kept low. That other guy was not in the hurry. He probably wanted to safely merge unlike you. Pathetic.
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  #174  
Old 01-16-2013, 08:41 PM
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Yogi:

He's probably typing on a phone or something. I'm sure I can get my phone to auto correct to right under the contrary condition because Audi Corey doesn't alwus work very well.

Also, you're making assumptions about the situation and his driving. It may not been like you describe at all. Would you say the same thing if it wasn't?

Maybe cut him a break. The point of his post was to describe how is vehicle behaves.
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  #175  
Old 01-17-2013, 07:39 AM
DavidZ DavidZ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
wt.... were you trying to say here... is a mystery. gees. English ain't that hard, come on.



If you are one of those jerks who block on-ramps by slowly accelerating and doing maybe 50 when the merge lane ends, then sorry, but you are a jerk. On-ramps are intended for fast acceleration and merging with the flowing traffic. I am stunned you were surprised that someone was trailing and trying to pass you if you were blocking the acceleration ramp. You must be a horrible driver. Sorry, but this is why drivers are called stupid on this side of the pond and why consequently speed limits are kept low. That other guy was not in the hurry. He probably wanted to safely merge unlike you. Pathetic.
I understood him to mean that someone basically was cutting in line. It happens here all the time in heavy traffic on the on-ramp. Some jerk will basically use the shoulder to get in front of several cars while everyone else is waiting to merge in heavy traffic. That pisses me off too. I also hate it when a guy will swerve over to the on ramp from the far right lane (again in heavy stop and go traffic) and then merge back on. He essentially just cut the line. Sometimes the driver probably thinks its a new lane because he's not familiar with that section of the freeway. But many drivers do it on purpose. They simply have to get 5 or 10 cars ahead in the line. Those people suck.

But if it's as you suggest then I agree with you.
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