Fully loaded 328i vs. Barebone 335i?

Originally Posted by WaxComb

I don't think the 328i is an inferior car. If it's a choice between a loaded 328i and a stripper 335i, I'd go with the 328 all the away. Even though the 335i is much more powerful, I'd doubt you'd notice the difference in everyday driving. In my car, the only time I pass 4000 rpm is when I'm stop light drag racing, passing on the freeway, or driving on a canyon road. Everyday the 328 has more than enough power.

Your definition of MUCH more poweful and mine must be different

10-15% which is the difference between the two cars regarding power at the wheels. That power difference is completely erased with a $380 tune. If it was such a power difference it would take a hell of a lot more than that.

Both cars are separated by about 5 tenths and 3-4 mph in the 1/4 mile. That is noticeable. But let's not exaggerate.

The difference between the N52 and N55 prior to '12 was quite a bit larger.

Originally Posted by shabadoo25

The gap between the E90 328i and the E90 335i is the Grand Canyon compared to the street puddle gap between the F30 versions.

Ding ding ding.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Your definition of MUCH more poweful and mine must be different

10-15% which is the difference between the two cars regarding power at the wheels. That power difference is completely erased with a $380 tune. If it was such a power difference it would take a hell of a lot more than that.

Both cars are separated by about 5 tenths and 3-4 mph in the 1/4 mile. That is noticeable. But let's not exaggerate.

The difference between the N52 and N55 prior to '12 was quite a bit larger.

I thought the difference between an F30 328i loaner I had and my 335i was quite large. However, I assumed that the N54 and N55 were similar because that's what BMW wants us to believe...

Originally Posted by WaxComb

I thought the difference between an F30 328i loaner I had and my 335i was quite large. However, I assumed that the N54 and N55 were similar because that's what BMW wants us to believe...

The N55 is down on power compared to the N54, this is another thing that has been accepted and proven by dynos.

owned an E93 328i and then an E90 328i for 6 consecutive years and I don't know what this "smooth" comment is about the 6 cylinder engine in those cars because the performance was anything but smooth.

You are confusing engines and transmissions. No way the N20 is even close in smoothness of the I6, specially at high RPM, where the N20 feels agricultural. It doesn't like to redline.

Originally Posted by Saintor

You are confusing engines and transmissions. No way the N20 is even close in smoothness of the I6, specially at high RPM, where the N20 feels agricultural. It doesn't like to redline.

Here's the thing- we don't drive engines. We drive cars.

So what ever BMW did to make a four-cylinder car feel faster than a six cylinder car, it works. Could be the engine, could be the transmission, could be the weight of the materials, who knows. The F30 just feels like a flat out faster car.

And I don't care about it, frankly. When I first read that BMW was coming out with a four-cylinder 328i, I was very skeptical and was expecting have to buy a 335i. But about 15 seconds into my test drive, I realized how silly a thought that was. It's a great car, incredibly fast. I don't know how they did it; I'm just glad they did it.

BJ

Thanks much guys. Your frank insights really helped.

I made my mind to order a car to my taste.

Still debating manual vs. auto... and started a new thread as this one became a bit less relevant.

335 bare bone for pure enthusiasts, 328 loaded those who want a luxurious bimmer.
335 loaded for luxurious enthusiasts...if there is such a thing.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

...

Thing is, if there was no 335i, all the 335i people would be drooling all over their 328i's and telling the world what a great car it is.

...

Ummm ... No. but very conveniently put.


BMW enthusiasts have expectations, and BMW has a legacy to live up to. The 328i is a great car, no doubt, but will truly satisfy only those willing to compromise on BMW's 3 series core essence (inline-6 power, delivery and acoustics). Don't forget, BMW also needs to satisfy the rental car, euro taxis, corporate fleet cars and the older driver "Now that I've made it, lemme go out and buy me a BMW" demograph. The 328i 4 cylinder is a great way to capture that market segment, which will most likely never pop the cars hood or even care to buy as little as a sport package on their BMW. The less expensive and less performance oriented 3 series models (328i for the USA) dovetails nicely with that crowd.


I'd wager that in the USA, BMW will sell more F30 Sport/M-Sport packages on their 335i engine than the 328i engine, as a percentage of total sales of each model respectively. Just my guess.


Having said that, I had the F30 328i sport line (Melbourne Red on Black) for a few days for an extended test drive, and I loved it. However, I realized right away that it was down on power (although an improvement on the E90 328i). It's an impressive little engine, and a great feat of engineering to squeeze all that power out of that tiny little thing, but boy does it sound like it. It breaks in a sweat and screams out in anguish with every kickdown. Not nearly as effortless, smooth and gracious as an inline-6. Anyway, long story short, I ordered a 335i without even test driving it. I won't lie, I thought about saving some money and ordering a 328i. It didn't take that much thought, and the decision to order the 335i was a much easier one in my case.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

I owned an E93 328i and then an E90 328i for 6 consecutive years and I don't know what this "smooth" comment is about the 6 cylinder engine in those cars because the performance was anything but smooth.

I could care less what the power curve looks like on a computer. All I know is that when I stepped on the gas in those E9X cars it didn't move very fast, it shifted inconsistently and very abruptly, and there was nothing remarkable about it's performance. Conversely, when I step on the F30, the thing flies and the shifting is so smooth and effortless you barely even know it's taking place.

...

BJ

Well, you had the wrong E90. I'm sure the General Motors transmission didn't help either? F30 328i has a ZF transmission, and was noticeably abrupt to my liking. The ZF-8 truly shines on the 335i.

Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM

335 bare bone for pure enthusiasts, 328 loaded those who want a luxurious bimmer.
335 loaded for luxurious enthusiasts...if there is such a thing.

Now that you bring 'enthusiast' into the equation, the 328 would be more of the 'enthusiasts' option. It's more balanced, and has better weight distribution then the 335i, and it's lighter. You'd be hard pressed no notice the difference between the two on a public road.

Originally Posted by shicobico

Well, you had the wrong E90. I'm sure the General Motors transmission didn't help either? F30 328i has a ZF transmission, and was noticeably abrupt to my liking. The ZF-8 truly shines on the 335i.

Show me the E90 328i that had an engine with more horsepower and more torque than an F30 328i.

BJ

Originally Posted by shicobico

BMW enthusiasts have expectations, and BMW has a legacy to live up to.

BMW enthusiasts are not driving 3 Series anymore as it is no longer an enthusiasts car.

BMW has no legacy to live up to. It is a for-profit business.

You're a little late to the party. The 3 Series is bigger, longer, wider, softer, and more comfortable because that's exactly what its customers want it to be. BMW makes a Roadster and soon a 1 Series Sedan for those Andretti's who miss their E36's.

Trying to make the F30 into something it isn't and then criticizing it on those grounds is weak. It's a $50,000 German luxury car that can be de-featured and stripped down to a $36,000 grocery getter. Its not for enthusiasts.

BJ

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

BMW enthusiasts are not driving 3 Series anymore as it is no longer an enthusiasts car.

BMW has no legacy to live up to. It is a for-profit business.

You're a little late to the party. The 3 Series is bigger, longer, wider, softer, and more comfortable because that's exactly what its customers want it to be. BMW makes a Roadster and soon a 1 Series Sedan for those Andretti's who miss their E36's.

Trying to make the F30 into something it isn't and then criticizing it on those grounds is weak. It's a $50,000 German luxury car that can be de-featured and stripped down to a $36,000 grocery getter. Its not for enthusiasts.

BJ

I think BMW customers want it to be both (sports sedan and larger luxury sedan), but physics keeps getting in the way. Dang you physics!

Umm . . . According to the Newtonian laws of physics on this planet, the F30 335i is lighter than the E90 335i. So the new car is not "bigger". This is as basic as it gets and only missed if you're just completely biased. At least the guy that brings up weight distribution is talking sense and has a legitimate opinion.

And by the above flawed line of questionable logic, then a Ferrari 458 Italia is no longer an 'enthusiast's' car because it is more dynamic in it's handling and more civilized than its predecessor. It's a silly argument since development always marches on.

The F30 is moving up-market, no doubt. Definitely more luxurious than past models.

But most BMW F30 customers still demand high performance attributes. That's why the sport-line is so popular, and the M-Sport line is so well liked on this forum.

Relatively speaking, I think BMW is doing a very good job at overcoming the universal laws of physics associated with trying to go up-market while still retaining the legacy performance characteristics of the 3 series.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

BMW enthusiasts are not driving 3 Series anymore as it is no longer an enthusiasts car.

...


BJ

Is that right? Care to back up your claim with any facts or numbers? I'll even take a Car Magazine clip out. Just Photoshop something ... at least make it look like you're trying to make a coherent claim.

Originally Posted by boltjaM3s

...

The 3 Series is bigger, longer, wider, softer, and more comfortable because that's exactly what its customers want it to be.

BJ

They do? Again, please point me to any factual information or BMW market survey or field study of some sort to back this up. I'm all ears.


The Base/Non-sport e90 always felt soft, and wasn't exactly known for it's sharp cornering abilities. Balanced, yes, but still soft and comfortable enough for everyday stop-and-go driving for the masses. Maybe your f30 feels softer and more comfortable like that because it's a Luxury line? Dynamic Handling?

Originally Posted by shicobico

Is that right? Care to back up your claim with any facts or numbers? I'll even take a Car Magazine clip out. Just Photoshop something ... at least make it look like you're trying to make a coherent claim.

Naaah. Don't bother. He will write anything as long as he gets attention.

Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM

335 bare bone for pure enthusiasts, 328 loaded those who want a luxurious bimmer.
335 loaded for luxurious enthusiasts...if there is such a thing.

The higher number equates to higher prestige in some people's mind.

I know a 60+ year old woman who wanted a 540 over a 528 (back in the day). I asked her daughter whether she needed that much power, you know, being a granny that could barely get a around. The daughter gave me an exacerbated look and said she only wants it because of the higher model number. Dead serious.

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Your definition of MUCH more poweful and mine must be different

10-15% which is the difference between the two cars regarding power at the wheels. That power difference is completely erased with a $380 tune. If it was such a power difference it would take a hell of a lot more than that.

Both cars are separated by about 5 tenths and 3-4 mph in the 1/4 mile. That is noticeable. But let's not exaggerate.

If these numbers are correct, one has to wonder whether BMW is trying to ill the 335.

I wonder whether there is an internal struggle going on, with one camp purposely castrating the 335i to justify axing it altogether.

Audi has a 5-cyl 2.5L engine in the TT-RS that pumps out 360Hp and 343 lb-ft. Sure, that is not your typical large-production model engine, but AFAIK it is not a super-special engine. I don't see how BMW cannot do at least as well with an extra 0.5L of displacement. This must be pushed either by marketing, by too many failures on the N52, an internal struggle of some sort, or some reason we are not privy to yet. It just makes no sense.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

If these numbers are correct, one has to wonder whether BMW is trying to ill the 335.

I wonder whether there is an internal struggle going on, with one camp purposely castrating the 335i to justify axing it altogether.

Audi has a 5-cyl 2.5L engine in the TT-RS that pumps out 360Hp and 343 lb-ft. Sure, that is not your typical large-production model engine, but AFAIK it is not a super-special engine. I don't see how BMW cannot do at least as well with an extra 0.5L of displacement. This must be pushed either by marketing, by too many failures on the N52, an internal struggle of some sort, or some reason we are not privy to yet. It just makes no sense.

It's simple I think.

Before, the gap between the 328 and 335 was quite large, my opinion, tuners opinions, and E90-F30 jumpers have agreed. The 328 jump makes the base 3 owners feel good, and let's face it, they will make up 80% of the sales compared to the 335.

Every car company is capable of making a 300hp 2-2.5L 4 cylinder turbo that is semi reliable and gets decent gas mileage. MB has a 300+hp A series coming soon as an AMG.

Why does BMW not do the same thing within a 3 series? Look at Porsche.

The 911 has kept the Boxster/Cayman in it's shadow. Many will tell you the new Boxster is the bees knees, could be better/faster than the 911. Porsche has always made sure they kept the power of the Box/Cay in check even though many say it's crying out for more power. Sure, some people will always have to have a 911 no matter how fast junior becomes. But if they gave the Box/Cayman 50-75hp (both base AND S), things would get very interesting.

The 335 keeps some of us happy. You hear how some around here think the 4 is sacrilege. If the N20 was FASTER and made the same power as the N55, there would still be plenty moaning about how the N55 is the sexier engine. So BMW is sure to neuter the 328 JUST enough. But fact is, the 328 N20 is a very appealing base engine and largely the most appealing base engine in the class.

No matter the engines, a 911 is way more prestigious than a Boxter/Cayman. It is perceived as a car in a different league altogether compared to the Boxter/Cayman. But I don't think the same can be said about the 335i versus the 328i.

My issue is why can't BMW "throw in" just a little more power? So they followed Audi in the 4-cyl turbo route, and I am now wondering whether they are also going to follow them in dropping the 335i altogether and offer instead a less "pure" M3, just like Audi now offers just a 4-cyl turbo or the S4, at least in the US.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

No matter the engines, a 911 is way more prestigious than a Boxter/Cayman. It is perceived as a car in a different league altogether compared to the Boxter/Cayman. But I don't think the same can be said about the 335i versus the 328i.

My issue is why can't BMW "throw in" just a little more power? So they followed Audi in the 4-cyl turbo route, and I am now wondering whether they are also going to follow them in dropping the 335i altogether and offer instead a less "pure" M3, just like Audi now offers just a 4-cyl turbo or the S4, at least in the US.

If they "throw in" just a little more power then value seen in the 335 will diminish.

Fact is, the ATS 2.0 rated at 272hp seems to slot well enough below the 321hp 3.6.

Insideline dyno'd BOTH the ATS and 328 2.0's and found the N20 made the same if not 1-2hp more.

So if the 328 had the rating of 270-275hp, how would that look next to the 300hp 335?

Ironically, in all the tests the N20 seems to clearly edge out the ATS 2.0 in performance(aside from steering feel), yet the 3.6 ATS seems to consistently edge out the 335.

Originally Posted by bmw_or_audi

No matter the engines, a 911 is way more prestigious than a Boxter/Cayman. It is perceived as a car in a different league altogether compared to the Boxter/Cayman. But I don't think the same can be said about the 335i versus the 328i.

My issue is why can't BMW "throw in" just a little more power? So they followed Audi in the 4-cyl turbo route, and I am now wondering whether they are also going to follow them in dropping the 335i altogether and offer instead a less "pure" M3, just like Audi now offers just a 4-cyl turbo or the S4, at least in the US.

Yes, maybe the same N54 that was offered in the 1-series M or the Z4 rated at 340 HP. Then a 335 would be worth the $3,700 premium. Maybe that will be addressed with the release of the F32

Originally Posted by shicobico

Is that right? Care to back up your claim with any facts or numbers? I'll even take a Car Magazine clip out. Just Photoshop something ... at least make it look like you're trying to make a coherent claim.

In the past, enthusiasts loved the 3 Series because it was a small, tight, powerful car in its base configuration.

Today, the 3 Series is a large, soft, comfortable car with no sport features in its base configuration. Less than 5% of all 3 Series sold have any sport packages on them. Do the math.

As for enthusiast magazines, they exist for one reason: To sell magazines.

Originally Posted by shicobico

They do? Again, please point me to any factual information or BMW market survey or field study of some sort to back this up. I'm all ears.

The factual information is what's being built in Germany. The car itself speaks its intentions. If the car were being made for enthusiasts, it would be getting smaller, tighter, and less soft. Instead, it does the opposite. Not like some 25 year old junior designer drew up the F30 and BMW just ran with it. They spend millions on market research and study millions of datapoints of actual owners. The car is bigger, softer, and more 'comfortable' because that's what the customer said it wanted. Otherwise, the car would be different. It's not.

BJ