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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)

E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 05-22-2012, 10:57 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
Dating my old clutch & flywheel

Just wonderin'.... would these parts have any stamping of any kind that might indicate date of manufacture?

My flywheel doesn't feel or look so bad but it has 154K on it. Clutch is fairly worn. Pressure plate is rusty and dry. Throw-out bearing is same...

I was half-hoping these parts might not be original....
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  #2  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:20 AM
edjack edjack is offline
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You need to get a life, and date a woman (if that's your thing).
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  #3  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:42 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
I had a life once ..... I think....
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  #4  
Old 05-23-2012, 07:49 AM
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16valex 16valex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pleiades View Post
I had a life once ..... I think....
LOL! That's funny.

Pete, are you in the process of replacing your clutch? Are you going with OEM or after market?
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  #5  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:14 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
Yessir, replacing the clutch, along with most of the wear parts from there back to the diff.

I was just curious whether all the old stuff had mfg. date stamps (like many of the other parts on these cars). The clutch disc still seems to have a lot of "meat" left on it; I was expecting it to be almost bare of friction material.
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  #6  
Old 05-23-2012, 08:44 AM
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16valex 16valex is offline
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Nice, I hope you have a lift for this job.

I can't help you with the date stamp on them. Was your clutch show any sign of slippage? When I had Gumbi's garage did my clutch at 160K I was surprised to see the clutch was still in very good condition too.

My 02 530 however is slipping a bit at the moment. I'm looking for a car lift right now.

GL
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  #7  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:11 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
No slipping, just the entire driveline is old and has a small amount of lash that I'm trying to eliminate. I hated the clutch engagement feel the most, even after bleeding, CDV delete and master/slave cylinder replacement ..... so .... anyway, still debating whether to replace the flywheel as it seems to have some life in it yet. Unlike me ....

Car on 6-ton jackstands. I used a floor jack to hold the trans when I pulled it out, then laid it down sideways on the jack to roll it out from under the car. I'd guess it weighs 80 pounds or so .... at least I can still pick it up and walk away.
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  #8  
Old 05-23-2012, 09:56 AM
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16valex 16valex is offline
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Quote:
I hated the clutch engagement feel the most, even after bleeding, CDV delete and master/slave cylinder replacement
I went through what you're experiencing with my 97-528. The clutch pedal's sensation during pressing down was horrific with vibration and oscillation, un-refineed POS to say the least. So, one day I had time and started to dis-mantled my intake manifold.

I replaced the IM gasket.
Replaced Knock sensor.
Replaced FPR
Replaced the vacuum hose to the FPR

Oh my god! The car runs like brand new, and this is coming from the wife's quote!!! The annoyance feeling of the clutch pedal is completely gone, I just can't believe I have found new love for this old girl with 182K miles under her belt.

So, what I'm trying to tell you is it's not the fly-wheel. It's the adequate amount of vacuum to the brake/clutch master cylinder that change the behavior of the clutch pedal.

It it could be the knock sensor that I replaced but kind of doubted.
Or it could also be the FPR that I replaced but doubted also.
I think it had to be the IM gasket and the vacuum hose to the FPR was in bad shape.

I encourage you to look very hard at the vacuum hose to your FPR (maybe you don't have it right under the manifold because your is an M52TU)

But kudos to you doing clutch w/o a lift
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  #9  
Old 05-23-2012, 10:07 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
FPR = fuel pressure regulator?

Yeah mine's an M52TU so that's ... I think ... located next to the fuel filter under the car. Planning to replace it anyway, might try and see.

Did you replace your knock sensor due to codes or ?

If I have to pull the intake manifold, it will probably be to replace the starter I just beat the crap out of getting its dowel pin to let go of the bell-housing.
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  #10  
Old 05-23-2012, 10:25 AM
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16valex 16valex is offline
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Mein Auto: 530I/Stick Blown
Quote:
FPR = fuel pressure regulator?
YUB

Quote:
Yeah mine's an M52TU so that's ... I think ... located next to the fuel filter under the car. Planning to replace it anyway, might try and see.
Make sure you check this line all the way back to the engine


Quote:
Did you replace your knock sensor due to codes or ?
No, no code was thrown. I did it because it was a perfect time with the IM out.

Quote:
If I have to pull the intake manifold, it will probably be to replace the starter I just beat the crap out of getting its dowel pin to let go of the bell-housing.
A pic just for fun



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  #11  
Old 05-23-2012, 12:04 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Oh boy gee whillikers I can't wait to pull the manifold and be in awe of the Rube Goldberg approach to fuel delivery.

(For edjack) I am the No-Life King....

Incidentally, back to topic: I've looked all over my old flywheel, clutch disc, pressure plate, and throw-out bearing. No date stamps....

Disc has plenty of friction material left. Judging from the new one, they come with about 3 mm on either side (measuring from the rivet pits); old one is worn only to 2.32 mm gearbox side, 2.8 mm engine side. That's no more than 25% thinner than new!

[No, just updating here, in case someone actually reads this thread... I mis-measured from the wrong rivet type. The disc was actually close to borderline, at 1.2 mm, measuring from the "closing" or split side of the rivet.]

Flywheel is still tight, no noises, can only rotate it about 5 degrees. Outer 1 cm of surface is smooth as glass, rest still has remnants of evenly machined ridges; a couple of tiny blue spots.

Clutch pressure plate made no noises or movement when I took it out; is this a sign something is frozen? I thought the sprung adjusting mechanism was supposed to snap a bit upon removal....

Throw-out bearing completely dry outside but metal ring that interfaces the clutch plate "fingers" still rotates smoothly as if lubed inside. One side of the TOB heavily friction-worn by the clutch fork. I'd venture this part was close to failure.

Last edited by pleiades; 05-30-2012 at 11:56 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-23-2012, 02:33 PM
fortunateson fortunateson is offline
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I have a '02 525i. There's approx. 150k on the clock. lately if I push the clutch pedal all the way in I get a kind of grinding noise with a slight pulsation. I was presuming it was the clutch. There is no "slipping". Now I'm not so sure. Any ideas?
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  #13  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:51 AM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Mein Auto: e39 528it
Pleiades:

Quote:
still debating whether to replace the flywheel as it seems to have some life in it yet.
These are a wear item... replace it.

I know it is $$$ but, how many more times do you want to go in there?

Haven't seen a consistent Factory / BMW method to test radial and axial play of the sprung halves and the internal marcel springs on the DMFs.

Even if info was available ... 150k on a DMF is time.

Cheers.
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  #14  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:04 AM
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BentValve BentValve is offline
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At 140K, my DMF was also in good shape. Still replaced it though.
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:18 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
I know ...... I know ......... but it's gonna hurt if I have to buy a new one. I did purchase an exact-model *used* DMF from a 2004 325i with 80k miles and was planning to use it as it does "look" to be in better surface condition than the one I just pulled, but there's no way to be sure of anything unless I buy new.

[EDIT]......

Damn, I went ahead, bit the bullet and ordered a new one.

Last edited by pleiades; 05-24-2012 at 11:46 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:56 AM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Mein Auto: e39 528it
You won't regret it.

I haven't had any problems with mine (LUK, and LUK clutch repset) for a few years now.

One less thing thing to deal with on an aging car .. that still has tons of plastic in the engine bay (although 99% of mine has been replaced).

Good luck.
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  #17  
Old 05-24-2012, 04:25 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
The DMF019 for $375 new & free shipping, felt stupid -not- to go for it.... Just hope I get it soon as some of the neighbors have started commenting on the 5er on jackstands in the driveway.
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  #18  
Old 05-28-2012, 03:27 PM
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Johnny Canada Johnny Canada is offline
2003 530 5 speed
Location: Hamilton Ontario
 
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Mein Auto: 2003 530 5sp 53K Miles
Wow, jackstands in the driveway. No doubt an ambitious project all things considered.

When you're finished, please follow-up with your impressions/observations. I've always wondered if the Dual Mass Flywheel can wear out internally and result in poor clutch engagement pedal feel.

It's always an issue of "feel" on these old E39s....CDV, Self-Adjusting pressure plate, DM flywheels....oh well.

Good luck!
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  #19  
Old 05-28-2012, 04:03 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
My neighbors don't mind me working on my car but they start giving me strange looks when the car has been on stands for more than a couple days. Must be bad for the neighborhood image or something ....

The flywheel should be here in a few days. Just waiting for that so I can start buttoning things back together. I'm replacing these things because in a way, I'm hurling parts at a driveline lash that may have always been with the car. I have no way of knowing, never driven one of these 5ers new.

I'll do the half-shafts when I eventually get around to the rear wheel bearings, but that's gonna be awhile.
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  #20  
Old 05-28-2012, 04:25 PM
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Johnny Canada Johnny Canada is offline
2003 530 5 speed
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Could you describe your "driveline lash". Is there a "clunk" you are experiencing while disengaging the clutch after shifting? Or is this something you feel while getting on and off the gas when the car is in gear and moving?

My drivetrain feels solid and quiet in all situations.....and I've owned a lot of wrecks so I know what excessive lash feels like.

Having said that, I'm still not thrilled by the clutch engagement feel. I've thought about a new DMF, PP and clutch to see if that improves things.
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  #21  
Old 05-28-2012, 05:33 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
No audible clunk but it's a clunky feel, probably age-related for everything between the engine and the rear wheels. The lash just feels like there's slack somewhere in the drivetrain that needs a split sec to work itself out, mainly noticeable in first gear and when shifting into second.

More irritating though is the way the clutch feels from a dead stop. It's just hard to read/learn the feel because it's so digital -- either on or off, not much analog control in between. I am better with it when I'm not thinking about it. Paying attention to it assures I'll start off like someone that's never driven a car with a manual trans. This "lash" could be any number of things in the drivetrain so I'm finally doing everything between the rear main seal to the driveshaft CV, hoping that the issue is not in the trans itself. Who knows, the lash could be in the diff, which I don't really have much confidence to deal with ... or it could be something less formidable like the diff bushings, or the half-shafts, which I plan to get to next... eventually. What I'm doing now is something I planned 18 months ago and have finally decided to get done and stop wasting any more time thinking about. Although I don't have much of a life, I'd rather be driving this car than working on it.
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2012, 07:43 PM
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Johnny Canada Johnny Canada is offline
2003 530 5 speed
Location: Hamilton Ontario
 
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Mein Auto: 2003 530 5sp 53K Miles
Hey, I respect your determination to sort this out....most would just live with it.

If the transmission is still removed, you may want to replace the clutch fork. I'd also replace the plastic pivot pin. Some guys even upgrade to the steel pin found in the 850.

"a split second to work itself out"... that sounds like a pressure plate or flywheel issue. I mean, as you maintain forward momentum, any lash in the drivetrain has already been removed.

You sound like you know what you're doing, but I have to ask....Have you inspected or replaced that rubber Guibo donut thing on the driveshaft?

A final thought...the sensation you are feeling when disengaging the clutch...could it also be interpreted as the engine momentarily stumbling? I'm starting to think that failing vanos seals play havoc with manual transmission cars during shifting.
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  #23  
Old 05-28-2012, 08:04 PM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
I'm past diagnosis mode. Things getting replaced..... Aside from the flywheel, these are new OE parts I've accumulated over the past year-plus. (* = finished so far in this job.)

Rear main seal
* Pilot bearing
Flywheel with new bolts
Clutch disc, pressure plate with new bolts
* Throw-out bearing
* Clutch fork lever
* Pivot pin & spring
* Input shaft seal
* Guide tube with bolts
* Selector shaft seal
* All gearshift bushings
* Flex disc with nuts
* Driveshaft centering sleeve
* Center support bearing with nuts
* Driveshaft CV joint grease repack with Redline CV-2, plus new gasket and nuts

I think a sticking throw-out bearing may have been causing some of my problem. To answer your question JC, no, no engine stumbling here. I replaced the Vanos seals per Beisan a few months after acquiring the car, though, and it made an enormous difference in engine idle, smoothness, an improved sense of torque.... But I didn't really notice any difference with clutch or trans behavior.

I hope that flywheel arrives soon...

update: rear main seal, *! It was too easy, thanks to all the help I received here.

Last edited by pleiades; 05-28-2012 at 10:20 PM.
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  #24  
Old 05-29-2012, 07:11 AM
Jase007 Jase007 is offline
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Mein Auto: e39 528it
I chased clutch engagement problems before my clutch disc went boom from age and previous owner.

I didn't have a lash problem but rather couldn't engage gears sometimes.

Diagnostics went like this:

1. bleed / flush clutch master and slave cylinder. OK for a little bit but then ... no gears.

*tow home

2. replace clutch slave cylinder and again, bleed master and slave ... OK for a little bit and then ... couldn't select gears.

*tow home


3. Accumulated parts (like Plieades) and replaced everything.

$1,000 total in parts, including rental car for a week, my labor was free.


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Last edited by Jase007; 05-29-2012 at 07:14 AM.
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  #25  
Old 05-31-2012, 09:21 AM
pleiades pleiades is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 528i, M52TU w/stick
Yet another DIY question ......

My new flywheel arrived yesterday evening so I'm hoping to get started putting everything back together. The relevant TIS procedures say clean out the crud in the crank bolt holes.
The old bolts had coatings of what appears to be Loctite green adhesive. How to get that stuff out of the bolt holes? Do I have to buy some proprietary degreaser from Loctite to melt that stuff?

....

Incidentally, TIS seems to say (somewhere) the flywheel bolts are the stretch to yield variety and must be replaced, not for re-use with any kind of threadlocker. I have two sets of new bolts as the new flywheel itself came with a set also. Torque rating is 120 Nm (89 ft.lb), same as the lug bolts on these cars.

The new flywheel is nice and shiny and has zero play in the internal springs; I can't budge it. (The old flywheel will rotate on its base by hand, maybe as much as 10 degrees.)
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