Amazed by the ' (un)reliability ' comments about this SUV.

Originally Posted by Dirtbag

As mentioned before, forums seem to attract two types of owners - those happy with it and want to improve and interact with others and those that have problems. I am still too new as the owner of a BMW, but I will let you know how I fare in (hopefully) years to come. As to statements re: having not bought for reliablity, that's bunk. Just because a vehicle drives nicer than another or better for that fact; for what is paid they should be damn reliable and no excuse for BMW to be less than the $20M throwaway vehicle. JMO

Originally Posted by roy528

That's my thinking. But some owners believe that the king is wearing clothes no matter what.
A great car is not only one that does things very well- it is also very reliable .
The Jaguars of old were beautiful and fun to drive- But they broke down very often
and people finally stopped buying them.

Originally Posted by Dirtbag

Amen

BMW: The ultimate driving machine without paying sticker or paying $300 for an oil change every 15k

Porsche: The ultimate driving machine when paying sticker+, and dropping $250-300 for an oil change every 5K.

I wonder why Porsche is a bit more reliable lol....

You can enjoy paying $300.00 ( actually I think it's more like $200.)
for a Genuine Porsche Dealer oil change if you feel that there is some magic to
the oil change when done by the dealer. Or you can go to an independent
repair shop and pay much less for the same oil change. With Porsche there
are usually 9 or 10 quarts involved. So with Synthetic being ~$9.00 retail and the filter
about $35.( guess) you've got about $125.00 or so in oil & filter alone.
But -who pays for the oil changes- has nothing to do with reliability of the
car over all. AND FOR THE RECORD- My 2013 528iX is my first BMW .
I have had ZERO problems with it in the 3 months I have owned it.
AND !!!! I LOVE THIS CAR !!! I hope it is problem free. I am just reacting and speaking to
the posts on this board and elsewhere that refer to repair issues and state 'never buy the first year' comments and conversely the others who report that there are more problems with post LCI models. etc. It's like trying to grab Jello - to get a real handle on the reliability or lack thereof for these cars.
I'm just reading and asking questions.
One thing really can't be argued. Because a car is fun to drive
and has a lot of technology does not give it a pass on
it being reliable . Good engineering is both.
And- we are certainly paying enough to get both.
It's not about brand loyalty - it's about the cars- as they are.
I am leaving Lexus after 13 years of owning them because they
put out a piece of crap that shouldn't have been so for the $$$.
I am now in the market for an SUV to replace my Gx460 and would love to get an X5
and would like to wait for the Gen 3 - however it is a first year car......
Thus the quandary and the search for wisdom continues.

Worthy Opinion indeed.

However I sense that in your posts you seem to be overly cautious after your GX460 purchase (which is normal). This some wisdom I can provide (assuming this is wisdom at all).

Live life to the fullest without any analyzing every single detail and every possible outcome.

When the F15 arrives, test the crap out of it. If the E70 feels better go with that. If not the F15 is there. Forget about all the opinions, facts, statistical data, and etc we post. If anything happens your covered with the warranty.

ENJOY!


BTW I loved the DEATHBLOW comment .

When the F15 arrives, test the crap out of it. If the E70 feels better go with that. If not the F15 is there. Forget about all the opinions, facts, statistical data, and etc we post. If anything happens your covered with the warranty.

ENJOY!

Ahhhhhh the sound of "logic"....so rare indeed.

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

Originally Posted by Dirtbag

Amen

Amen x 2!

Perhaps this will bring out the verite' of this 'debate'. If you purchased a very expensive lawn mower that made your lawn look absolutely perfect.
It turned on a dime- even had a high tech edging function that edged without you having to get off the mower. It never even left
any clippings behind-none-! ..This lawn mower was expensive- but look at how it mows !!! Just great- BUT !! It broke down every 8-10 weeks.
Unacceptable- no matter how well it mowed when it worked. When you took it back to Home Depot and demanded your money back - which you surely would vowing never to buy this brand again- The manager came up to you and said- "Well this is a very high tech mower - you can't expect it to run without breaking down every now and then" . You would still demand your money back and that would be that.
Now take that argument and mentality to a car that costs $50-100K. Does this still make sense ?

Originally Posted by roy528

Perhaps this will bring out the verite' of this 'debate'. If you purchased a very expensive lawn mower that made your lawn look absolutely perfect.
It turned on a dime- even had a high tech edging function that edged without you having to get off the mower. It never even left
any clippings behind-none-! ..This lawn mower was expensive- but look at how it mows !!! Just great- BUT !! It broke down every 8-10 weeks.
Unacceptable- no matter how well it mowed when it worked. When you took it back to Home Depot and demanded your money back - which you surely would vowing never to buy this brand again- The manager came up to you and said- "Well this is a very high tech mower - you can't expect it to run without breaking down every now and then" . You would still demand your money back and that would be that.
Now take that argument and mentality to a car that costs $50-100K.

Does this still make sense ?

No, because home depot would never carry a mower of this quality.

Originally Posted by roy528

Perhaps this will bring out the verite' of this 'debate'. If you purchased a very expensive lawn mower that made your lawn look absolutely perfect.
It turned on a dime- even had a high tech edging function that edged without you having to get off the mower. It never even left
any clippings behind-none-! ..This lawn mower was expensive- but look at how it mows !!! Just great- BUT !! It broke down every 8-10 weeks.
Unacceptable- no matter how well it mowed when it worked. When you took it back to Home Depot and demanded your money back - which you surely would vowing never to buy this brand again- The manager came up to you and said- "Well this is a very high tech mower - you can't expect it to run without breaking down every now and then" . You would still demand your money back and that would be that.
Now take that argument and mentality to a car that costs $50-100K. Does this still make sense ?

My $3800 mountain bike sees the shop quite frequently (surprise! It's in the shop again). However, it's because I ride DH so that exacerbates the wear and tear and breakage of parts . Actually did a $250 service on the front fork in September too.

Sometimes there's a bit of sacrifice between performance and maintenance, but that's just my belief.

Originally Posted by Whippa

When the F15 arrives, test the crap out of it

Judging by all the crap that F10 owners are going through with their MY11/12 cars, I'd skip the F generation for a couple years, until all the issues are sorted out

Originally Posted by NoI4plz

BMW: The ultimate driving machine without paying sticker or paying $300 for an oil change every 15k

Porsche: The ultimate driving machine when paying sticker+, and dropping $250-300 for an oil change every 5K.

I wonder why Porsche is a bit more reliable lol....

Toyota just recently switched from 5k/6month service intervals to 10k/1 yr and it doesn't look like it is harming anything. Lexus still has 5k/6 month service intervals though

Originally Posted by AzNMpower32

My $3800 mountain bike sees the shop quite frequently (surprise! It's in the shop again). However, it's because I ride DH so that exacerbates the wear and tear and breakage of parts . Actually did a $250 service on the front fork in September too.

Sometimes there's a bit of sacrifice between performance and maintenance, but that's just my belief.

So, you beat the crap out of your X5? I don't see the correlation between the two. If the BMW's are as unreliable as some posts make it out; then shame on us for keeping BMW in business, not that I have been an owner long enough to know one way or the other.

I just saw this on Edmunds 2013 BMW X5 Reliability Study 5.0 is the highest rating.
Regardless of personal opinions - this is pretty awful . The results were about the same for the 2013 5 series.
This should be a better made car -period. This is a pretty terrible report card..

Initial Quality Study by J.D. Power
JDPower

The Initial Quality Study by J.D. Power shown is based on owner-reported issues for the 2012 model year. About J.D. Power Ratings
Initial Quality - Overall ?
2.0
2.0
Powertrain Quality - Mechanical ?
3.0
3.0
Body & Interior Quality - Mechanical ?
2.0
2.0
Features and Accessories Quality - Mechanical ?
3.0
3.0
Powertrain Quality - Design ?
2.0
2.0
Body & Interior Quality - Design ?
3.0
3.0
Features and Accessories Quality - Design ?
2.0
2.0
Reliability Rating for 2013 BMW X5 SUV by Identifix

im not going to be an apologist... i lemoned my 2010 after 60+ days in the shop, and have a 2012 that has never spend a night in the shop.... I dont really give a crap one way or the other. I have multiple cars, I get loaners...

But what does a '5' mean versus a '0' or '1'...from a "I bought one, what can **I** expect??

Is a 5 mean 5% chance of service in the first year? And 1 is 50%?

Or is 5 0.5% chance and a 1 is 2%?

People get tied up in ratings, but what do they actually mean? Again, not to minimize, but what might a buyer expect for their ONE copy they purchase?

Originally Posted by ard

im not going to be an apologist... i lemoned my 2010 after 60+ days in the shop, and have a 2012 that has never spend a night in the shop.... I dont really give a crap one way or the other. I have multiple cars, I get loaners...

This needs to be repeated. As long as it doesn't live at the dealer, I think most people will be fine. If you have a competent dealer (hard to come by, I admit) and they give out loaners, it's not a big deal at all.

I usually don't buy a car looking at its reliability. Only exception is Jaguar/Land Rover. No way in hell am I diving into that mess

Originally Posted by roy528

I just saw this on Edmunds 2013 BMW X5 Reliability Study 5.0 is the highest rating.
Regardless of personal opinions - this is pretty awful . The results were about the same for the 2013 5 series.
This should be a better made car -period. This is a pretty terrible report card..

Initial Quality Study by J.D. Power
JDPower

The Initial Quality Study by J.D. Power shown is based on owner-reported issues for the 2012 model year. About J.D. Power Ratings
Initial Quality - Overall ?
2.0
2.0
Powertrain Quality - Mechanical ?
3.0
3.0
Body & Interior Quality - Mechanical ?
2.0
2.0
Features and Accessories Quality - Mechanical ?
3.0
3.0
Powertrain Quality - Design ?
2.0
2.0
Body & Interior Quality - Design ?
3.0
3.0
Features and Accessories Quality - Design ?
2.0
2.0
Reliability Rating for 2013 BMW X5 SUV by Identifix

JD Power is one garbage step up from Consumer Reports, Most of their studies are the initial 90 day period where people complain about fit and finish, I only care about the mechanical issues , Edmunds is garbage also, more entertainment IMO than information. The only worthwhile service that JD Power provides is the dollar bill that shows up with the survey.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

This needs to be repeated. As long as it doesn't live at the dealer, I think most people will be fine. If you have a competent dealer (hard to come by, I admit) and they give out loaners, it's not a big deal at all.

I usually don't buy a car looking at its reliability. Only exception is Jaguar/Land Rover. No way in hell am I diving into that mess

Remember that these are SUVs. For me reliability is very important in an SUV and I will be very dissapointed if our new Cayenne leaves me and/or my family stranded. We take our SUVs far out in the sticks where there is no cell coverage and dealers with loaners are hours if not days away and into the mountains in winter time with sub zero temperatures. The inconvinience and outright danger with having the vehicle disabled is far beyond the irritation of having to visit the dealer and driving a loaner. On the other hand my F10 spent more time at the dealer than on the road and it didn't really bother me that much since it was not often driven far outside populated areas and almost never by my wife. I was still happy to get rid of it but that was due to that the car's persona didn't fit me at all.

I think one needs to understand the correlation between

Vehicle price
Vehicle mfg cost
Vehicle Design tolerances
BMW Groups's bottom-line and Porsche's Bottom-line


If you can grasp all of that information and understand the crucial connections btwn each, then the argument about how the vehicle is unreliable or reliable in certain MY vs others really makes sense.

It all boils down to a "fair trade" question : If you are looking for a means to an end and you want a vehicle to provide reliable transportation then Honda/Toyota is your choice..but if you want a ride that you look forward to getting in to expierience the trip..then a little aggrivation is a "fair trade" "The hoarse in the stable that is the most exciting to ride will also bite you , fight the bit , and kick you if they get a chance...but oh for those moments when she is flat out with your chin in her neck ....

Originally Posted by Whippa

It all boils down to a "fair trade" question : If you are looking for a means to an end and you want a vehicle to provide reliable transportation then Honda/Toyota is your choice..but if you want a ride that you look forward to getting in to expierience the trip..then a little aggrivation is a "fair trade" "The hoarse in the stable that is the most exciting to ride will also bite you , fight the bit , and kick you if they get a chance...but oh for those moments when she is flat out with your chin in her neck ....

The problem I have is that Ford and GM does it better in reliability than BMW now. That was not the case before. Both companies have progressed in reliability where as BMW has went the other way. A recent example is Mercedes's quality rating. It has been improving ever since Mercedes return their focus on their car instead of Chrysler. It is never a good sign when automakers spend so much on in warranty repairs. It is to their financial interest to make sure that does not happen.

Reliability takes time and engineering resource. It takes commitment toward quality standard in addition to performance engineering. BMW should do better.

Then again, BMW X5 35D is now rated as average reliability base on Consumer Reports. I know there are those that blast them. I will take average as a good sign to come.

Originally Posted by Whippa

It all boils down to a "fair trade" question : If you are looking for a means to an end and you want a vehicle to provide reliable transportation then Honda/Toyota is your choice..but if you want a ride that you look forward to getting in to expierience the trip..then a little aggrivation is a "fair trade" "The hoarse in the stable that is the most exciting to ride will also bite you , fight the bit , and kick you if they get a chance...but oh for those moments when she is flat out with your chin in her neck ....

Fair trade, maybe for a low volume mostly handmade exotic but we are talking top level german engineering and highly automated manufacturing with cutting edge robotics. I agree with henrycao we should expect better, at least after the first MY.

There are two shining examples that it's not a necessary trade. Two of the car worlds most entertaining and celebrated cars are also two of the most reliable. The BMW M3 and the Porsche 911.

Originally Posted by henrycyao

The problem I have is that Ford and GM does it better in reliability than BMW now. That was not the case before. Both companies have progressed in reliability where as BMW has went the other way. A recent example is Mercedes's quality rating. It has been improving ever since Mercedes return their focus on their car instead of Chrysler. It is never a good sign when automakers spend so much on in warranty repairs. It is to their financial interest to make sure that does not happen.

Reliability takes time and engineering resource. It takes commitment toward quality standard in addition to performance engineering. BMW should do better.

Then again, BMW X5 35D is now rated as average reliability base on Consumer Reports. I know there are those that blast them. I will take average as a good sign to come.

Just a joke here, but honestly with the amount and age of tech that mercedes is putting into their vehicles currently or lack thereof if Mercedes still has a lingering reliability issue then....

The X5 in its current specs worries me in the future.

Yes diesel is average vs petrol (im guessing is below)

The problem I have is that with both of the models:

Petrol:
8 speed transmission is relatively immature tech.
N55 after warranty
electronics modules a plenty
pano roof

Diesel:
Emissions
electronic modules a plenty
Pano Roof
M57 engines seem to have some weak spots (the flap issue)

For the long-term out of warranty owner: The X5 is quite a troublesome creature.

The powertrain, its respective "e-brains", interior bits and emissions really are terrible.
If you plan to own the E70 out of warranty

This one is going around and around. I agree with you That's the horse we want. The great one. The 'chin in the neck ' one. That's why we pay up the big bucks. However - what use is this
great horse if it pulls up lame every few weeks. The point is- it should be that great horse and not pull up lame. Would you buy a very expensive horse from a breeder known for breeding very fast horses but who have a known high propensity for serious illness? These cars should do what they do
and be -at least- more reliable than they are- much more. Can you imagine buying an airplane with this mentality. It's faster than the rest and can pull 3 g's- only it breaks a lot.....
Again, when we want to- we can aways see the kings clothes. If the badge was taken off these cars and they were newly introduced, the car magazines would say" Great performance- terrible reliability-stay away until they get it right. Germany is known for great engineering. They could certainly get this done. However BMW just had it's biggest year ever. So, if they can sell them faster than they can make them like they are- Why spend more money to build them? I get it - Many on this board just love these cars so much that they are willing to put up with this to drive them . They love these cars reliability warts and all. The way these cars drive is not the issue. They are wonderful -fabulous. What this whole diatribe addresses is that they break a lot and shouldn't at this price point. To say that BMW can't get this done is ridiculous. They just won't. They don't have to.

Originally Posted by roy528

This one is going around and around. I agree with you That's the horse we want. The great one. The 'chin in the neck ' one. That's why we pay up the big bucks. However - what use is this
great horse if it pulls up lame every few weeks. The point is- it should be that great horse and not pull up lame. Would you buy a very expensive horse from a breeder known for breeding very fast horses but who have a known high propensity for serious illness? These cars should do what they do
and be -at least- more reliable than they are- much more. Can you imagine buying an airplane with this mentality. It's faster than the rest and can pull 3 g's- only it breaks a lot.....
Again, when we want to- we can aways see the kings clothes. If the badge was taken off these cars and they were newly introduced, the car magazines would say" Great performance- terrible reliability-stay away until they get it right. Germany is known for great engineering. They could certainly get this done. However BMW just had it's biggest year ever. So, if they can sell them faster than they can make them like they are- Why spend more money to build them? I get it - Many on this board just love these cars so much that they are willing to put up with this to drive them . They love these cars reliability warts and all. The way these cars drive is not the issue. They are wonderful -fabulous. What this whole diatribe addresses is that they break a lot and shouldn't at this price point. To say that BMW can't get this done is ridiculous. They just won't. They don't have to.

Well said! Couldn't agree more!