Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > M Series

M Series
The ///M Series Forums. If you would like to see all new posts in all the forums, click here.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-22-2004, 01:29 PM
Xiled1 Xiled1 is offline
Registered User
Location: Mesa, Arizona
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2002 M3
Trouble with smooth shifting - E46 M3

I've had my M3 for about 3 months now and I am still haveing trouble knocking off smooth shifts in normal driving. If I drive more aggressively, the shifting smooths out. Also if I drive very conservatively(shift around 2000 or so RPM) its smooth. The trouble seems to come when accelerating conservatively to around 3000 RPM and then shifting. 1-2 being the worse and then improving from there. I think you have all heard this before.

I believe this trouble is due to the delay in the DBW throttle. I'm having problems with the timing. So my question is - Is there anything I can do to remove or at least decrease this delay? Perhaps a factory software upgrade that addresses this issue. Or maybe aftermarket such as Dinan.

Any help is greatly appreciated. At this point I am considering selling the car due to my frustration with the shifting. I'd hate to do that, but I bought the car purely for motoring enjoyment and thats just not happening. For info, I've been driving stick my entire life, I have removed my CDV, and I have the UUC stage III SSK.

thanks,
Brian
Advertisement
  #2  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:08 PM
sky sky is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: usa
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 380
Mein Auto: 2013 535i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiled1
I believe this trouble is due to the delay in the DBW throttle. I'm having problems with the timing. So my question is - Is there anything I can do to remove or at least decrease this delay? Perhaps a factory software upgrade that addresses this issue. Or maybe aftermarket such as Dinan.

Any help is greatly appreciated. At this point I am considering selling the car due to my frustration with the shifting. I'd hate to do that, but I bought the car purely for motoring enjoyment and thats just not happening. For info, I've been driving stick my entire life, I have removed my CDV, and I have the UUC stage III SSK.

thanks,
Brian
I know what you mean about the DBW. That very slight delay in throttle
response can be a pain in the arse. What seems to work for me is to keep
my foot on the throttle for a slight fraction of a second after I push the
clutch in (you'll feel the revs go up slightly when the load on the engine
is gone). As soon as the revs go up, lift off the throttle, do your 1-2
shift (or any other shift).
  #3  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:11 PM
sky sky is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: usa
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 380
Mein Auto: 2013 535i
By the way, if you don't want your M3, I'll be happy to take it.
  #4  
Old 07-22-2004, 02:19 PM
TGray5's Avatar
TGray5 TGray5 is offline
Ultimate Driving Machine
Location: So. Calif.
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 2,207
Mein Auto: '13 F10 550i; '13 R1200GS
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiled1
I've had my M3 for about 3 months now and I am still haveing trouble knocking off smooth shifts in normal driving. If I drive more aggressively, the shifting smooths out. Also if I drive very conservatively(shift around 2000 or so RPM) its smooth. The trouble seems to come when accelerating conservatively to around 3000 RPM and then shifting. 1-2 being the worse and then improving from there. I think you have all heard this before.

I believe this trouble is due to the delay in the DBW throttle. I'm having problems with the timing. So my question is - Is there anything I can do to remove or at least decrease this delay? Perhaps a factory software upgrade that addresses this issue. Or maybe aftermarket such as Dinan.

Any help is greatly appreciated. At this point I am considering selling the car due to my frustration with the shifting. I'd hate to do that, but I bought the car purely for motoring enjoyment and thats just not happening. For info, I've been driving stick my entire life, I have removed my CDV, and I have the UUC stage III SSK.

thanks,
Brian
shifting at 3k is very low and I can't even imagine what 2k is like. With my SMG, if I shift at those levels, I can't really keep up with the flow of stop and go traffic. No reason to shift at those levels IMO.
__________________
  #5  
Old 07-22-2004, 03:24 PM
Xiled1 Xiled1 is offline
Registered User
Location: Mesa, Arizona
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2002 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky
I know what you mean about the DBW. That very slight delay in throttle
response can be a pain in the arse. What seems to work for me is to keep
my foot on the throttle for a slight fraction of a second after I push the
clutch in (you'll feel the revs go up slightly when the load on the engine
is gone). As soon as the revs go up, lift off the throttle, do your 1-2
shift (or any other shift).

I have actually tried this before and it does work, but I'm not sure its the correct thing to do. By doing so the revs hang on a little before dropping, in the same way they do when driving agressively. My concern is that this method leads to increased clutch wear.

But thanks for the input, it helps to know that I'm not alone in having difficulties.
  #6  
Old 07-22-2004, 03:47 PM
glaws's Avatar
glaws glaws is offline
Paw Paw
Location: Hayward, CA (sigh)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,388
Send a message via Yahoo to glaws
Mein Auto: 2002 M3 Coupe Topaz/Gray
EVERYBODY has had trouble with the 1-2 shift. The Getrag shifter on the E46 M3 is very notchy.
__________________


A friend will allways try to help you up when you fall. If I can't get you up: Hell, I'll just lie down with you.
  #7  
Old 07-22-2004, 05:09 PM
Xiled1 Xiled1 is offline
Registered User
Location: Mesa, Arizona
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2002 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by glaws
EVERYBODY has had trouble with the 1-2 shift. The Getrag shifter on the E46 M3 is very notchy.
Agreed, the shifter IS notchy. But my problem lies in the timing of application of the throttle with release of the clutch. I tend to release the clutch before the RPM's have risen to a matched point - this causes bucking. OR I give too much throttle and the engine revs up before clutch engagement is complete - also causing jerking, but in the opposite direction. Mostly the former though. After installation of the UUC SSK I don't have nearly as much trouble with the notchiness.

Thanks for the input.
  #8  
Old 07-22-2004, 05:21 PM
MMME30W's Avatar
MMME30W MMME30W is online now
Super Moderator
Location: On The Move
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 14,246
Mein Auto: 2009 W906
Quote:
Originally Posted by glaws
EVERYBODY has had trouble with the 1-2 shift. The Getrag shifter on the E46 M3 is very notchy.
Mr. Glaws - I've wondered about this - never driven an M3 myself. Is it because of the power the xmission has to convey?
__________________
“Character is doing the right thing when nobody’s looking. There are too many people who think that the only thing that’s right is to get by, and the only thing that’s wrong is to get caught.”

- J.C. Watts Jr.
  #9  
Old 07-22-2004, 06:30 PM
glaws's Avatar
glaws glaws is offline
Paw Paw
Location: Hayward, CA (sigh)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,388
Send a message via Yahoo to glaws
Mein Auto: 2002 M3 Coupe Topaz/Gray
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingspan
Mr. Glaws - I've wondered about this - never driven an M3 myself. Is it because of the power the xmission has to convey?
Partly, I think. The shifter comes right out of the (late) M5 and was designed to handle a V8 with a lot more HP. Otherwise I have heard that Getrag shifters are just notchy by nature.

For Xiled - shifting at 2000 RPM is part of your problem. Do you have SPORT engaged?
__________________


A friend will allways try to help you up when you fall. If I can't get you up: Hell, I'll just lie down with you.
  #10  
Old 07-22-2004, 07:36 PM
Ajax's Avatar
Ajax Ajax is online now
Hydrocarbon Man
Location: Houston
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,095
Mein Auto: 991 GT3
shift at 4k
  #11  
Old 07-22-2004, 10:24 PM
16hr Day's Avatar
16hr Day 16hr Day is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Hills, CA
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 620
Mein Auto: 2011 535i
my shifts can be a little jerky too. It seems like if you don't have the exact mix of clutch and gas. However, when everything is just right it's like hitting the sweet spot with a baseball bat and you hear that crack and you know it was just perfect!
__________________


2011 535i
2003 540i-6 M-tech SOLD
1964 MGB Roadster
1980 International Scout II 345 v-8

2004 M3 Alpine White SOLD 2/14/09 We were in love
  #12  
Old 07-23-2004, 11:15 AM
Xiled1 Xiled1 is offline
Registered User
Location: Mesa, Arizona
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2002 M3
For Xiled - shifting at 2000 RPM is part of your problem. Do you have SPORT engaged?[/QUOTE]

Shifting at 2K is a rarity, only when stuck in traffic and that actually is smooth. Shifting around 3-3.5K is where it tends to get jerky. As for saying, "just shift higher", my daily driving does not always lend itself to that type of shifting. Usually stuck behind someone and the speed limits are in the 35 - 45 MPH range. The actual rpm I am shifting at is not the deciding factor though. Its more dependent on how fast I got to that RPM. If I am driving more agressively, then the revs will hang on a little after the shift and that way they end up at the correct engagement RPM for the next gear. When accelerating slowly, the revs drop off much faster, thus requiring application of the gas to bring the revs up to the proper engagement point. This is the situation that I am having the most trouble with. I feel that if I could remove or at least reduce the throttle delay, I would be able to better match the revs to the gear.

Oh and I do not have Sport engaged when driving with the A/C on. Seems to shift smoother. With A/C off, I seem to do better with SPORT on.
  #13  
Old 07-23-2004, 11:35 AM
glaws's Avatar
glaws glaws is offline
Paw Paw
Location: Hayward, CA (sigh)
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,388
Send a message via Yahoo to glaws
Mein Auto: 2002 M3 Coupe Topaz/Gray
I have never experienced enough throttle delay to effect my shifting like that. The only shift that I consistantly have trouble with is the 1-2 which I attribute mostly to the Getrag being notchy. I am in sport mode 24/7 just because I got used to it early on. I realize that you drive in an urban area (as do most of us) but there is no real reason to poot around in 3rd at 2000 RPM - stay in 2nd and let the revs go to 5-6K. Course your milage will go to hell....
__________________


A friend will allways try to help you up when you fall. If I can't get you up: Hell, I'll just lie down with you.
  #14  
Old 07-23-2004, 11:51 AM
jetstream23 jetstream23 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Phoenix, AZ
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,229
Mein Auto: 330i, Toyota Land Cruiser
Is this a 6 sp problem only or are people finding this with the SMG II? I'd imagine that since the clutch is engaged by the computer on an SMG this problem might not be a prevalent on the SMG. Although it is still a manual transmission so there is no torque converter or automatic rev-matching so it could still be a problem I guess.
  #15  
Old 07-25-2004, 04:52 PM
Rob@UUC Rob@UUC is offline
'Fest Sponsor
Location: Atlanta, GA
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 142
Mein Auto: a little of everything.
Your experience has nothing to do with your shifting style or the gearbox itself. The problem is the clutch...

The problem with the clutches in the E46 (and E39) is the SAC - Self Adjusting Clutch. This new mechanism built into the clutch pressure plate is supposed to keep your clutch pedal engagement point the same as the clutch wears... but in all reality, it's a case of engineers with too much free time. They have added a layer of complexity and feedback isolation, filling a need that didn't need filling - like anyone ever notices that their clutch engagement point as moved 1/2" over 50K miles?

It's this automatic adjusting that is making your clutch engagement feel weird and not contollable in a smooth manner. Additionally, the SAC mechanism can be affected by temperature. This explains why sometimes you can get off a clean shift, other times you cannot.

The SAC mechanism itself causes other problems; it over- or under-adjusts the pressure plate and therefore causes the clutch to slip or burn out prematurely. They are also known to shift, causing the pressure plate release fingers to slip off the plate, keeping 1/3 of the pressure plate engaged at all times. Bottom line is that the only fix is a complete clutch job, and your dealer is likely to claim "driver abuse". We've seen it happen too many times.

Our custom clutches have the SAC disabled. Clutch feel is normalized, shifting smoothly is no longer dependent on what "mood" the SAC is in.
__________________
- Rob Levinson
UUC Motorwerks * http://www.uucmotorwerks.com * 908-874-9092
  #16  
Old 07-26-2004, 03:38 AM
Pinecone's Avatar
Pinecone Pinecone is offline
M Mad
Location: Maryland
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 10,480
Mein Auto: M Roadster/M3
Havnig recently driven a manul M3 recently (mine is SMG), I find that the tranny is not notchy. I have to guess that most of you have not had any experience with a tranny designed for high output. Trust me, there are some REALLY notchy trannys out there.

Second, I found no problem with shifting at any RPM. If it is a timing problem, you should be able to adjust your timing to handle it. Again, maybe lack of experience. Although the car I drove did have the CDV removed.
__________________
Terry Carraway

'95 Alpine M3 LTW
'00 Dakar M Roadster
'02 Topaz M3
Red/White SRF #4 (Chassis 561)
  #17  
Old 07-26-2004, 04:47 AM
TLudwig's Avatar
TLudwig TLudwig is offline
Stuck in Monday
Location: Houston, TX
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,766
Mein Auto: 2009 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by sky
I know what you mean about the DBW. That very slight delay in throttle
response can be a pain in the arse. What seems to work for me is to keep
my foot on the throttle for a slight fraction of a second after I push the
clutch in (you'll feel the revs go up slightly when the load on the engine
is gone). As soon as the revs go up, lift off the throttle, do your 1-2
shift (or any other shift).
I've had this same issue off and on, and this is exactly what I've been doing to compensate. I doubt this would wear out your clutch significantly faster.
__________________
2009 Interlagos Blue E92 M3 (Sold)
2004 Silver Gray 330Ci ZHP (Sold)
  #18  
Old 07-26-2004, 09:17 AM
flashinthepan flashinthepan is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Congo
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 5,397
Mein Auto: unimobile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Havnig recently driven a manul M3 recently (mine is SMG), I find that the tranny is not notchy. I have to guess that most of you have not had any experience with a tranny designed for high output. Trust me, there are some REALLY notchy trannys out there.

Second, I found no problem with shifting at any RPM. If it is a timing problem, you should be able to adjust your timing to handle it. Again, maybe lack of experience. Although the car I drove did have the CDV removed.
For what its worth, My M3 is equally smooth as my 330 was & I have a very easy to use gearbox ? All factory, no CDV removed. Is it as smooth as a Honda ? not quite, but as pine suggests, for the power its very good ? I have had muscle cars that would make you say the M3 is butter smooth.

Maybe I am a lucky one ??


BTW for strictly trivia purposes, if you want to feel a notchy tranny ? try an old Triumph Spitfire...OMG !!! it was a victory just getting to your destination.

Last edited by flashinthepan; 07-26-2004 at 09:19 AM.
  #19  
Old 07-26-2004, 10:33 AM
Mr. The Edge's Avatar
Mr. The Edge Mr. The Edge is offline
.
Location: .
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 20,211
Mein Auto: .
I have had no problems shifting in my nearly 3 years of ownership
__________________
Belief cannot argue with unbelief, it can only preach to it

To clasp the hands in prayer is the beginning of an uprising against the disorder of the world.
  #20  
Old 07-26-2004, 01:36 PM
armaq armaq is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Houston
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 566
Mein Auto: 98 M3/4
If you think the M3 has got a notchy tranny try a manual IS300. It's impossible to shift smoothly in that car
__________________

... ...
  #21  
Old 07-26-2004, 06:34 PM
Xiled1 Xiled1 is offline
Registered User
Location: Mesa, Arizona
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 36
Mein Auto: 2002 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@UUC
Your experience has nothing to do with your shifting style or the gearbox itself. The problem is the clutch...

The problem with the clutches in the E46 (and E39) is the SAC - Self Adjusting Clutch. This new mechanism built into the clutch pressure plate is supposed to keep your clutch pedal engagement point the same as the clutch wears... but in all reality, it's a case of engineers with too much free time. They have added a layer of complexity and feedback isolation, filling a need that didn't need filling - like anyone ever notices that their clutch engagement point as moved 1/2" over 50K miles?

It's this automatic adjusting that is making your clutch engagement feel weird and not contollable in a smooth manner. Additionally, the SAC mechanism can be affected by temperature. This explains why sometimes you can get off a clean shift, other times you cannot.

The SAC mechanism itself causes other problems; it over- or under-adjusts the pressure plate and therefore causes the clutch to slip or burn out prematurely. They are also known to shift, causing the pressure plate release fingers to slip off the plate, keeping 1/3 of the pressure plate engaged at all times. Bottom line is that the only fix is a complete clutch job, and your dealer is likely to claim "driver abuse". We've seen it happen too many times.

Our custom clutches have the SAC disabled. Clutch feel is normalized, shifting smoothly is no longer dependent on what "mood" the SAC is in.

Thanks for the info Rob. Would you say it is possible that this mechanism is worse on some cars as opposed to others? There are a number of people on this board that claim they have no trouble with their cars. I plan on taking it to the dealership for a check out and I am also going to try to test drive a new M3 for comparison. Any information is helpful so that I can discuss my complaints with the dealership.

thanks,
Brian
  #22  
Old 07-26-2004, 06:45 PM
JPinTO JPinTO is offline
2001 M3:Stick, what else?
Location: Toronto
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,301
Mein Auto: ///MMMmmm good
I've been driving E46's for 5 years now, and it's not just the M3. It's not a notichiness issue, nor IMO a DBW one, but a clutch release issue. After 5 years of E46 driving including over 1 with the M3 and 20 years of exclusive stick driving, I still have to periodic modulation issues starting in 1st.

The clutch delay valve must be the culprit, but to date, I still haven't had it removed to try to alleviate the issue. It's not just you. I live with it, but should really do something about it, as it's annoying.
  #23  
Old 07-26-2004, 07:36 PM
Nick325xiT 5spd's Avatar
Nick325xiT 5spd Nick325xiT 5spd is online now
Registered User
Location: Bethesda, MD
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 10,856
Send a message via ICQ to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via AIM to Nick325xiT 5spd Send a message via Yahoo to Nick325xiT 5spd
Mein Auto: M3 & 323i/999 KP
I recently spent an hour driving JST's manual M3, and while it did reaffirm my love for SMG, I had absolutely no trouble driving it smoothly at all. In fact, I was actually kind of surprised by how much easier it was to drive than I recall my old 325. VERY smooth. Yeah, the gear shift isn't all that buttery, but it's not that tough.

Out of curiosity, do you clutch in all the way? While I was not happy with a clutch stop, one thing that's helped my driving in ALL manuals is that I no longer touch the clutch stop. Taller stops interrupt the rhythm, IMHO, but learning to shift without touch the stop really helps.
__________________
2006 GMC Sierra 2500HD 4WD Duramax LBZ/Allison 6-speed
2002 BMW M3 Alpinweiß/Black
1999 323i KP/GTS2 Alpinweiß
1990 325is Brilliantrot/Tan
1989 325is S50B30US Alpinweiß/Black
1989 M3 Alpinweiß/Black S50B32 (321hp, ITBs)


  #24  
Old 07-26-2004, 08:33 PM
BahnBaum's Avatar
BahnBaum BahnBaum is offline
Empowered Consumer
Location: Havre de Grace, MD
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,043
Mein Auto: 1 - 4.20hp, 1 - 420hp
I don't have any trouble driving mine smoothly. I did notice it was easier to drive smoother once I had my CDV removed.

Alex
__________________
Interrobanged.

My Flickr
TeamWTF?!


  #25  
Old 07-27-2004, 08:06 AM
mtbscott's Avatar
mtbscott mtbscott is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Houston
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,128
Mein Auto: 2012 991 Carrera
Chalk up another vote for "no problems shifting."
 

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > M Series
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms