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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:53 AM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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2014 X5 vs 2014 Audi Q7 (both all new)

Who will win?
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  #2  
Old 01-09-2013, 12:15 PM
Mbbrewer Mbbrewer is offline
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win what?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:21 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Hard to say. The current X5 blows away the current Q7 but the new Q7 will be based on the excellent and light Cayenne/T-egg platform while the new X5 will be based on the heavy and not so excellent F10. My bet would still be on the X5, Audi just doesn't tune their steering and suspension very well IMO.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:44 PM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Hard to say. The current X5 blows away the current Q7
actually the current q7 beat the current x5 in car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
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  #5  
Old 01-09-2013, 12:52 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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actually the current q7 beat the current x5 in car and driver

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test
Sorry I missed the all important "IMO". If you mean who will win the press war my bet is on Audi, the F series cars have peed off many enthusiast reviewers ( with merit ) and Audi is the new darling. Audi has stepped up their game and removed much of the nose heaviness but the steering and suspension still needs work.

Last edited by solstice; 01-09-2013 at 02:16 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-09-2013, 02:32 PM
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Consumers still love the Audi, as they still don't realize how old the platform is (the E70 has aged much better, IMHO).

Personally, I remain infatuated with the X5. I don't recommend the Q7 anymore.

- Mike
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  #7  
Old 01-09-2013, 03:30 PM
NoI4plz NoI4plz is offline
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2014. More leds, more in-car tech, appps and possible the new MMI (not just the touchscreen but the new tegra 3 with the 3d sound tech that was shown at CES). Audi


However there is no finite winner. Each vehicle caters to the same economic-based demo, however different driving style oriented demo.
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  #8  
Old 01-09-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Hard to say. The current X5 blows away the current Q7 but the new Q7 will be based on the excellent and light Cayenne/T-egg platform while the new X5 will be based on the heavy and not so excellent F10. My bet would still be on the X5, Audi just doesn't tune their steering and suspension very well IMO.
Go drive the newest crop of Audis. I beg to differ on this one. Audi S4, S5, S6, S7, S8, R8, Q5, etc. All fantastic. Better steering/suspension than equivalent BMWs by a land-slide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Sorry I missed the all important "IMO". If you mean who will win the press war my bet is on Audi, the F series cars have peed off many enthusiast reviewers ( with merit ) and Audi is the new darling. Audi has stepped up their game and removed much of the nose heaviness but the steering and suspension still needs work.
The next gen Q7 is supposed to go on a huge diet, like 800+lb diet. The X5 might INCREASE in weight. I'm not sure. Hopefully, BMW doesn't screw up the next-gen X5.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Emission View Post
Consumers still love the Audi, as they still don't realize how old the platform is (the E70 has aged much better, IMHO).

Personally, I remain infatuated with the X5. I don't recommend the Q7 anymore.

- Mike
Yeah, it's interesting that they both came out in 2007.

I agree with you on this. E70 has aged significantly better. I see old Q7s (like what I used to have) and they look dated now. But the pre-LCI E70 does also. That being said, the facelifted Q7 and LCI X5 are still sharp looking SUVs.

I wouldn't tell anyone to buy either at this point though. Too late in the product cycle
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  #10  
Old 01-09-2013, 04:33 PM
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I honestly think they're both going to be great products. Audi has stepped it up and I doubt BMW will screw up their bread and better X5. That being said, the X5 will sell more though. Because of the simple fact that they are built here in the US and the Q7 is built in Slovakia.
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  #11  
Old 01-09-2013, 05:17 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Go drive the newest crop of Audis. I beg to differ on this one. Audi S4, S5, S6, S7, S8, R8, Q5, etc. All fantastic. Better steering/suspension than equivalent BMWs by a land-slide.



The next gen Q7 is supposed to go on a huge diet, like 800+lb diet. The X5 might INCREASE in weight. I'm not sure. Hopefully, BMW doesn't screw up the next-gen X5.
I drove the new S4 when I returned the F10. It's a well balanced nice car but the steering was almost as bad as the F10. I was in an E60 loaner at this time and the difference in steering was stark and the main reason I didn't further consider it.

Yeah, the VAG chassi that Audi will build the Q7 on is very nice and light. I think BMW will try to loose some weight on the X5 as well but it's a tough task taken their new found reluctance to aluminium. Audi has IMO never gotten close to the connected, communicative feel in steering and suspension to the E-series BMWs. Now it's a much easier task since BMW has choosen to dial back these traits in the F-series but Audi didn't really jump on it with the new A6, still light, numb steering and so-so suspension tuning. Then again, VAG can afford to cater to more segments with their three SUV brands in this class while BMW need to find their sweet spot with one vehicle.

Last edited by solstice; 01-09-2013 at 11:29 PM.
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  #12  
Old 01-09-2013, 07:03 PM
henrycyao henrycyao is online now
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
The next gen Q7 is supposed to go on a huge diet, like 800+lb diet. The X5 might INCREASE in weight. I'm not sure. Hopefully, BMW doesn't screw up the next-gen X5.
Where did you hear that X5 might increase in weight?

The rumor I read is BMW X5 is actually going to be under 2 tons. Unfortunately, a ton is different between US and British. So I expected it be around 4500 lbs or so. Since BMW's new philosophy is efficient dynamic, I would not be surprised that the X5 goes on a diet. Its hard to get more fuel economy out of the next gen BMW X5 if the weight, engine, and transmission are the same as E70. If they do indeed get the same MPG, that would be one smack in the face of BMW new philosophy. They ought to go back to hydrolic based steering.

My guess is that X5 35i should get around 18/25 with 4 cylinder X5 28i (rumored to be launch engine as well) to be 19/26. Diesel? That is going to be 21/30 mpg territory. I am sure BMW will not be happy to let MPG to be same as Porsche. They must get 1mpg better! After all, its the BMW new mantra of efficient dynamic.

Of course, this is all my speculation.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-2013, 07:29 PM
Brian425 Brian425 is offline
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I will bet big money that BMW keeps the GVW of the X5 over 6000lbs. If it falls below the 6000 GVW, it will no longer qualify for the Section 179 tax treatment. That will sway many business owners like myself to go to other vehicles.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2013, 09:29 PM
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BMW has yet to release a vehicle with a significant weight reduction over its predecessor (e.g., Porsche Cayenne). In fact, the E60 - F10 just was plain embarrassing.

Let's hope they had an early jump on weight reduction for the third-gen X5...

- Mike
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:36 PM
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Could some body explain me the whole big thing with Porsche super light chassis?

Facts (the weight)
BMW X5 30d (which is similar to PC diesel in terms of performance)
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.150
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ata/index.html

BMW X5 35d
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.185
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...gine_data.html

PC diesel
Leergewicht nach DIN 2.080 kg
Leergewicht nach EG-Richtlinie 2.175 kg
http://www.porsche.com/germany/model...s/?gtabindex=5

I am not completely sure what is the difference between “DIN” and “nach EG-Richtlinie” weight, but even assuming BMW weight is in DIN when we compare it to PC weight, it would be 70-100 kg, i.e. the weight of the full tank or one passenger on the board.

Does it really make ANY difference in such big car?
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
Could some body explain me the whole big thing with Porsche super light chassis?

Facts (the weight)
BMW X5 30d (which is similar to PC diesel in terms of performance)
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.150
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ata/index.html

BMW X5 35d
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.185
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...gine_data.html

PC diesel
Leergewicht nach DIN 2.080 kg
Leergewicht nach EG-Richtlinie 2.175 kg
http://www.porsche.com/germany/model...s/?gtabindex=5

I am not completely sure what is the difference between “DIN” and “nach EG-Richtlinie” weight, but even assuming BMW weight is in DIN when we compare it to PC weight, it would be 70-100 kg, i.e. the weight of the full tank or one passenger on the board.

Does it really make ANY difference in such big car?
Don't concern yourself so much with model to model comparisons (diesels are heavy by nature), but consider that the redesigned '11 Porsche Cayenne was 400 pounds lighter than the equivalent '10 Porsche Cayenne.

It does make a big difference.

- Mike
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'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:12 PM
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kanar200 kanar200 is offline
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well, I do not really care about PC I and PC II comparison, but I heard many times on this forum how PC is superior to BMW because of its weight…. taking into consideration the data, I do not understand this
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
well, I do not really care about PC I and PC II comparison, but I heard many times on this forum how PC is superior to BMW because of its weight…. taking into consideration the data, I do not understand this
Weight is only part of the equation... it also has to do with "era." The 2nd-gen PC was designed in 2009, while the 2nd-gen X5 was designed in 2005. Those four years represent a huge leap in materials and engineering in the automotive industry.

Watch how "dated" the PC looks when the 3rd-gen X5 debuts... expect a mid-cycle refresh of the Cayenne late next year!

- Mike
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I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

'13 Audi Q5 2.0T Quattro 8AT
'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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  #19  
Old 01-09-2013, 11:40 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanar200 View Post
Could some body explain me the whole big thing with Porsche super light chassis?

Facts (the weight)
BMW X5 30d (which is similar to PC diesel in terms of performance)
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.150
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ata/index.html

BMW X5 35d
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.185
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...gine_data.html

PC diesel
Leergewicht nach DIN 2.080 kg
Leergewicht nach EG-Richtlinie 2.175 kg
http://www.porsche.com/germany/model...s/?gtabindex=5

I am not completely sure what is the difference between "DIN" and "nach EG-Richtlinie" weight, but even assuming BMW weight is in DIN when we compare it to PC weight, it would be 70-100 kg, i.e. the weight of the full tank or one passenger on the board.

Does it really make ANY difference in such big car?

The diesel makes a bad example because it's the only Cayenne ( with the Hybrid ) that doesn't have a Porsche AWD system. Instead compare the X5 35i and Cayenne V6. The X5 is a hair from 5000 lbs at 4960 lbs while the Cayenne V6 is 4400 lbs. Nearly 600 lbs delta which does make a difference. The BMW 535 x-drive is over 4200 lbs and the F10 is supposedly the base for the X5s platform which makes for a tricky equation. I don't know what AWD system Audi will use, the heavier Torsen system Porsche uses in the diesel or the Haldex system Audi uses in many cars which I think is lighter but as far as I know has a strong FWD bias.

Last edited by solstice; 01-10-2013 at 12:01 AM.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:43 AM
smyles smyles is offline
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Originally Posted by Emission View Post
...2009 ...2005... Those four years represent a huge leap in materials and engineering in the automotive industry.
Please provide few examples of the huge leap in materials and engineering that occurred in these 4 years. Or will it be another blank statement like 0.24 Cx of Tesla?
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  #21  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
. I don't know what AWD system Audi will use, the heavier Torsen system Porsche uses in the diesel or the Haldex system Audi uses in many cars which I think is lighter but as far as I know has a strong FWD bias.
This is all wrong. Haldex is only used on the A3, TT, and upcoming Q3. Basically all Golf variants. That is all front-biased.

Torsen is on all the other models with various class-leading technologies, like crown-gear center diff, sport rear-diff, etc. Cayenne and Treg also use Torsen. The Audi Q7 doesn't use the same Torsen as the rest of the Audi lineup. It uses a specific BorgWarner torsen system, specifically designed for it. Probably due to weight reasons. The current Treg got the watered-down Torsen in the US, whereas the EU market got 4Xmotion, which had the locking diffs of the outgoing Cayenne.

All Torsen products are rear-biased AWD systems.

Last edited by AutoUnion; 01-10-2013 at 06:50 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrycyao View Post
Where did you hear that X5 might increase in weight?
It's gonna be based on the F10, which means weight will probably go up

Quote:
My guess is that X5 35i should get around 18/25 with 4 cylinder X5 28i (rumored to be launch engine as well) to be 19/26. Diesel? That is going to be 21/30 mpg territory. I am sure BMW will not be happy to let MPG to be same as Porsche. They must get 1mpg better! After all, its the BMW new mantra of efficient dynamic.
A 4 cylinder X5 would be pathetic to drive. I had a 328xi loaner yesterday. N20 is fantastic in it. It's terrible in the X1, X3, F10. No way in hell should anyone buy it in a huge X5.
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  #23  
Old 01-10-2013, 07:38 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
This is all wrong. Haldex is only used on the A3, TT, and upcoming Q3. Basically all Golf variants. That is all front-biased.

Torsen is on all the other models with various class-leading technologies, like crown-gear center diff, sport rear-diff, etc. Cayenne and Treg also use Torsen. The Audi Q7 doesn't use the same Torsen as the rest of the Audi lineup. It uses a specific BorgWarner torsen system, specifically designed for it. Probably due to weight reasons. The current Treg got the watered-down Torsen in the US, whereas the EU market got 4Xmotion, which had the locking diffs of the outgoing Cayenne.

All Torsen products are rear-biased AWD systems.
What is s all wrong? The Cayenne only uses Torsen in the diesel and the hybrid which i said. Porsche uses their own system in the rest of the Cayennes which is not Torsen or Haldex, it's a rwd biased electronic clutch based system. Very different to Torsen which is mainly mechanical and heavier. I also said that Audi uses a FWD biased Haldex system in many cars which is also true, well maybe i should have said some. I didn't say that the current Q7 has Haldex since it doesn't or that Torsen is FWD biased since it isn't. So what was "all" wrong?

Btw the current Q7's V6 model is 5300 lbs compared to the Cayenne V6's 4400 lbs so I doubt it's AWD system is very light. Haldex on the other hand is a lighter system so that could be one of the options for Audi to consider when putting the Q7 on a strict diet. I don't think it will be Haldex but I don't see it as impossible either even it's highly unlikely.

Last edited by solstice; 01-10-2013 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 01-10-2013, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by smyles View Post
Please provide few examples of the huge leap in materials and engineering that occurred in these 4 years. Or will it be another blank statement like 0.24 Cx of Tesla?
In 2004, the industry was still using horsepower to offset the additional weight caused by mandatory safety equipment and developing infotainment systems. Cars were getting heavier and heavier... but engines were getting bigger.

However, by 2009, automakers had decided that fuel economy was again going to be a consumer priority so they invested in lighter building materials (aluminum, carbon fiber, etc...) and more efficient manufacturing/design. Automakers were starting to embrace smaller displacement and forced induction too.

Porsche's 991 is literally light years ahead of its 997 predecessor. Another example is the F30 compared to the E90.

What's with the Tesla reference?

- Mike
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I am fortunate to have unique press cars delivered weekly, but I own:

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'86 Porsche 911 Turbo 4MT


Gone, but never forgotten... my E70 X5 35d, E90 335i, E46 330i, E36 328i, E70 X5 3.0si, E53 X5 3.0i.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:02 AM
smyles smyles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emission View Post
In 2004, the industry was still using horsepower to offset the additional weight caused by mandatory safety equipment and developing infotainment systems. Cars were getting heavier and heavier... but engines were getting bigger.

However, by 2009, automakers had decided that fuel economy was again going to be a consumer priority so they invested in lighter building materials (aluminum, carbon fiber, etc...) and more efficient manufacturing/design. Automakers were starting to embrace smaller displacement and forced induction too.

Porsche's 991 is literally light years ahead of its 997 predecessor. Another example is the F30 compared to the E90.

What's with the Tesla reference?

- Mike
E60 introduced in 2003 had aluminum front end/steel rear chassis. A8 had been aluminum for generations, while A6 had aluminum front parts since mid-90s. Heck, even E70 had light-weight front parts since '07.

Where's the leap? Oh, that's right, you're a car journalist...
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