2014 X5 vs 2014 Audi Q7 (both all new)

Originally Posted by smyles

E60 introduced in 2003 had aluminum front end/steel rear chassis. A8 had been aluminum for generations, while A6 had aluminum front parts since mid-90s. Heck, even E70 had light-weight front parts since '07.

Where's the leap? Oh, that's right, you're a car journalist...

The E60 used aluminum in the front suspension to reduce unsprung weight and improve the ride, not reduce overall vehicle mass. The E70 (and E92) used composite front quarter panels to improve overall balance, not reduce overall vehicle mass. BMW is late to the game.

By the way, your example of Audi's advanced space frame technology demonstrates how VW Group (Audi, VW, Porsche, etc...) was on board with the "lower vehicle mass" concept way before BMW.

Do a bit of research on your own, as I really don't need to spoon feed you rather basic industry knowledge.

- Mike

Originally Posted by Emission

The E60 used aluminum in the front suspension to reduce unsprung weight and improve the ride, not reduce overall vehicle mass. The E70 (and E92) used composite front quarter panels to improve overall balance, not reduce overall vehicle mass.

And the F30??

You said:

"Porsche's 991 is literally light years ahead of its 997 predecessor. Another example is the F30 compared to the E90."

Really? diesel is a bad example? in 90% cases it is X5d and PC diesel which are being compared

I do not know source of your data. Even for PC V6 the weight difference is minimal.

PC V6
Leergewicht nach DIN 1.995 kg (MT) 2.030 kg (Tiptronic)
Leergewicht nach EG-Richtlinie 2.070 kg (MT) 2.105 kg (Tiptronic)

http://www.porsche.com/germany/model...s/?gtabindex=5

BMW X5 35i
Leergewicht EU in kg 2.145 kg

http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ata/index.html

BMW 535xi
Leergewicht EU in kg 1.840 kg
http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ata/index.html

Originally Posted by solstice

The diesel makes a bad example because it's the only Cayenne ( with the Hybrid ) that doesn't have a Porsche AWD system. Instead compare the X5 35i and Cayenne V6. The X5 is a hair from 5000 lbs at 4960 lbs while the Cayenne V6 is 4400 lbs. Nearly 600 lbs delta which does make a difference. The BMW 535 x-drive is over 4200 lbs and the F10 is supposedly the base for the X5s platform which makes for a tricky equation. I don't know what AWD system Audi will use, the heavier Torsen system Porsche uses in the diesel or the Haldex system Audi uses in many cars which I think is lighter but as far as I know has a strong FWD bias.

The E60 used aluminum in the front suspension to reduce unsprung weight and improve the ride, not reduce overall vehicle mass...

Wrong. E60 entire front end frame was aluminum. But again, you think Cx .24 is real, so no surprises...

I thought the E60 aluminum frame in the front was used to better achieve the 50/50 weight ratio as well.

"Really? diesel is a bad example? in 90% cases it is X5d and PC diesel which are being compared."

The Cayenne diesel is a bad example of the Cayenne's light weight construction since it does not use the same AWD system as the rest of the lineup except the hybrid which is not comparable to any BMW X vehicle due to all the hybrid stuff as electric motor, batteries etc. The diesel is really a bit of a Cayenne bastard due to the AWD system.
The Cayenne, Cayenne S, Cayenne GTS, Cayenne Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S and latest the Cayenne diesel S all use Porsche's own AWD system which is lighter.

I know it doesn't seem like it here but the diesels are not the only X5s or Cayennes . The Cayenne diesel is the new kid on the block and thereby the recent comparison interrest. I'm sure gasser buyers also take a glance at the Cayenne before deciding.

Edmunds compare function:

Cayenne V6 Tiptronic BMW X5 35i
Curb weight
4475 lbs. 4960 lbs. ( The Cayenne Manual is at 4398 lbs. )

Here is the other end of the lineup CTT vs. X5M
Curb weight
4784 lbs. 5368 lbs.

And here are the diesels

Curb weight ( Still a 400 lbs delta )
4795 lbs. 5192 lbs

Does that clarify why we often praise the Cayenne's weight?

Originally Posted by RockChips

And the F30??

You said:

"Porsche's 991 is literally light years ahead of its 997 predecessor. Another example is the F30 compared to the E90."

In terms of technology and design, the F30 is much more advanced than the E90. However, most of us in the industry see the F30 as a less expensive ("cost-cutting") 3 Series when compared to its competitor (e.g., aluminum in the suspension was replaced with steel).

- Mike

Originally Posted by smyles

Wrong. E60 entire front end frame was aluminum. But again, you think Cx .24 is real, so no surprises...

Wrong? You are putting words in my mouth. I never said the front end was not aluminum, I said the suspension was aluminum to save weight. And, what is up with the "Cx .24" reference?

Originally Posted by Kzang

I thought the E60 aluminum frame in the front was used to better achieve the 50/50 weight ratio as well.

Yes, you are correct. BMW is incredibly focused on maintaining the near-50/50 balance, thus explaining its use of composites and aluminum in the front clip.

BMW isn't doing it to reduced overall mass (yet it is a by-product).

- Mike

have you seen the data I posted? there is no significant weight difference for X5 and PC gassers. My initial point was - what is the big WOW in terms of PC weight? It is frequently posted on this forum by PC/Audi fans. Even you posted some data (with giving the source) which seems to be not in line with the official data.

Did I say anywhere that X5 and PC diesels are the only cars to choose from? No, I did not.

Originally Posted by solstice

"Really? diesel is a bad example? in 90% cases it is X5d and PC diesel which are being compared."

The Cayenne diesel is a bad example of the Cayenne's light weight construction since it does not use the same AWD system as the rest of the lineup except the hybrid which is not comparable to any BMW X vehicle due to all the hybrid stuff as electric motor, batteries etc. The diesel is really a bit of a Cayenne bastard due to the AWD system.
The Cayenne, Cayenne S, Cayenne GTS, Cayenne Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S and latest the Cayenne diesel S all use Porsche's own AWD system which is lighter.

I know it doesn't seem like it here but the diesels are not the only X5s or Cayennes . The Cayenne diesel is the new kid on the block and thereby the recent comparison interrest. I'm sure gasser buyers also take a glance at the Cayenne before deciding.

This "50/50" that BMW (and lemming car journalists) has been pushing to the public is nothing more than marketing nowadays; just like the "perfect balance of 6 cyl naturally aspirated engine" has been quickly forgotten once the company decided to go turbo route and had to convince public to buy 328. While obviously 50/50 is a nice thing in itself, do you really think a company will invest $$ and increase production costs and risks just for something that is easily negated once a full tank is filled, and/or couple of suitcases tossed in the trunk, not to mention few passengers joining the party?

Re 0.24, it's from your Tesla review. Your review, so don't "you're putting words in my mouth".

Originally Posted by kanar200

have you seen the data I posted? there is no significant weight difference for X5 and PC gassers. My initial point was - what is the big WOW in terms of PC weight? It is frequently posted on this forum by PC/Audi fans. Even you posted some data (with giving the source) which seems to be not in line with the official data.

Did I say anywhere that X5 and PC diesels are the only cars to choose from? No, I did not.

Are you saying that Edmunds curb weight data is wrong? Look at the data in my updated comment.

porsche.com/us ( Cayenne V6 )
Curb weight 4,398 lbs (manual) 4,475 lbs (auto)

bmwusa.com ( X5 35i )
WeightUnladen 4960 lbs

I am sorry, but I do not know Edmunds. I believe BMW and Porsche data. If I had to choose, yes I would say Edmunds data is wrong

Originally Posted by smyles

This "50/50" that BMW (and lemming car journalists) has been pushing to the public is nothing more than marketing nowadays; just like the "perfect balance of 6 cyl naturally aspirated engine" has been quickly forgotten once the company decided to go turbo route and had to convince public to buy 328. While obviously 50/50 is a nice thing in itself, do you really think a company will invest $$ and increase production costs and risks just for something that is easily negated once a full tank is filled, and/or couple of suitcases tossed in the trunk, not to mention few passengers joining the party?

Re 0.24, it's from your Tesla review. Your review, so don't "you're putting words in my mouth".

I get it now... you are angry for some reason (that must explain the "lemming" attack). I don't play those games.

In any case, there was never a "perfect balance of 6 cyl naturally aspirated engine" marketing pitch. Truth is, it was BMW touting the perfect balance of an inline-six powerplant. And, the company has chosen to turbocharge its inline-six (N54/N55) so it still rings true.

Still a bit confused...you don't think the Tesla Model S has a .24 Cd? (My story reads: "Sleek and sexy from just about any angle, the Model S cheats the wind with a stunningly low .24 drag coefficient.") Send me a PM, if you'd prefer.

- Mike

Originally Posted by kanar200

I am sorry, but I do not know Edmunds. I believe BMW and Porsche data. If I had to choose, yes I would say Edmunds data is wrong

Let's go apples to apples (gasoline V8 to gasoline V8) based on manufacture published data. Two gas models:

2013 Porsche Cayenne S (4.8-liter V8) = 4,553 lbs.
2013 BMW X5 xDrive50i (4.4-liter V8) = 5,379 lbs.

Despite its larger engine, the Porsche is lighter by 826 pounds.

- Mike

Originally Posted by kanar200

I am sorry, but I do not know Edmunds. I believe BMW and Porsche data. If I had to choose, yes I would say Edmunds data is wrong

porsche.com/us ( Cayenne V6 )
Curb weight 4,398 lbs (manual) 4,475 lbs (auto)

bmwusa.com ( X5 35i )
WeightUnladen 4960 lbs

All good, but only diesels and 35i / V6 were mentioned earlier. One of the reasons is that they are the most popular cars, right?

You're trying to steer away conversation so your questionable writing would appear as unchallenged, but fact remains that your blank statements like "automotive industry experienced huge leap in technology b/w 2005 and 2009", or, for that matter, "/Tesla/ Model S cheats the wind with a stunningly low .24 drag coefficient" simply demonstrate your lack of real knowledge of auto industry, technologies or even physics. Yes you have access and drive plenty of cars, but in no way you're an expert in anything beyond "car X look good".

Originally Posted by kanar200

All good, but only diesels and 35i / V6 were mentioned earlier. One of the reasons is that they are the most popular cars, right?

All good, but as you can see all Cayennes are significantly ligther than the comparable X5s. Even the heaviest Cayenne ( hybrid at 4938 lbs ) is lighter than the lightest X5. Thereby the deserved praise.

I believe you, not going to check this on US sites. This is different from the European data, right (I did not convert lbs to kg)? I assume that BMW / Porsche AG and BMW / Porsche NA know what they are publishing.

What does it mean? My guess would be that BMW X5 comes with more options in standard on the US market than in Europe.

Originally Posted by solstice

porsche.com/us ( Cayenne V6 )
Curb weight 4,398 lbs (manual) 4,475 lbs (auto)

bmwusa.com ( X5 35i )
WeightUnladen 4960 lbs

Originally Posted by smyles

You're trying to steer away conversation so your questionable writing would appear as unchallenged, but fact remains that your blank statements like "automotive industry experienced huge leap in technology b/w 2005 and 2009", or, for that matter, "/Tesla/ Model S cheats the wind with a stunningly low .24 drag coefficient" simply demonstrate your lack of real knowledge of auto industry, technologies or even physics. Yes you have access and drive plenty of cars, but in no way you're an expert in anything beyond "car X look good".

You are absolutely correct.

- Mike

Originally Posted by kanar200

I believe you, not going to check this on US sites. This is different from the European data, right (I did not convert lbs to kg)? I assume that BMW / Porsche AG and BMW / Porsche NA know what they are publishing.

What does it mean? My guess would be that BMW X5 comes with more options in standard on the US market than in Europe.

Yes, for the most part US-spec vehicles are more optioned.

You bring up a good point... and this is a gray area... what constitutes a "curb weight" for an automaker? Is the vehicle a base model, which wheel package, full fluids? We all know a full tank of fuel can add upwards of 200 pounds...

- Mike

Originally Posted by Emission

Yes, for the most part US-spec vehicles are more optioned.

US-spec models are better optioned, but the curb weights are different for bunch of different reasons. To add to your point, our safety standards are also different and various different changes have to be made to import into the US. (Good example of this is that we can't get the better Euro-spec seats in the Audi R8 here because of the lack of the side airbag). Also diesel versions of various cars in the US are going to be more heavy because of all the emission control systems.

Originally Posted by smyles

You're trying to steer away conversation so your questionable writing would appear as unchallenged, but fact remains that your blank statements like "automotive industry experienced huge leap in technology b/w 2005 and 2009", or, for that matter, "/Tesla/ Model S cheats the wind with a stunningly low .24 drag coefficient" simply demonstrate your lack of real knowledge of auto industry, technologies or even physics. Yes you have access and drive plenty of cars, but in no way you're an expert in anything beyond "car X look good".

He is so clueless that he works for one of the popular automotive press sites. Mike is also so clueless that he repeatedly hinted to us about a Porsche Cayenne Diesel coming to US, almost a year before Porsche made it official.

You are correct

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

You are a douche.

Fixed for accuracy.

Originally Posted by AutoUnion

He is so clueless that he works for one of the popular automotive press sites. Mike is also so clueless that he repeatedly hinted to us about a Porsche Cayenne Diesel coming to US, almost a year before Porsche made it official.

It only shows what kind of people write in "one of the popular automotive press sites" and how much value is in their writing. I wouldn't bother discussing it if they kept it to those sites.