Former 5er guy now with Audi comparison

Originally Posted by The X Men

That just about sums it up, except I am a bit confused, if someone put sportiness first, then why the heck would they buy a 2 tons+ 4 door sedan

In my case I have two kids in child seats and felt I needed a mid size sedan. I've now learnt that a three series size is ok and I'll likely stay with this size until the child seats are over with. After that I think there will be a period where a 2+2 will work. When you get kids the choices gets really narrow if you are a sports enthusiasts. I commuted on a sports bike before the kids.

I bought my E60 in 2007, when the time comes to trade the M3 I don't want something that is 90 or even 100% of the E60. I want something even better. I suspect that Porsche is now the only company that has both the will and capacity to build a mid-size car like that. With Audi and BMW you will probably need to go down in size to cars like the M3 and S4 which is fine but I'm really curious about the new baby Panamera.

The F10 was not the car I thought it was going to be coming right out of the e60. I did think that overall it was a BETTER car than the E60 however, owing to the fit and finish, interior, technology, road feel on the highways and comfort. I was very happy with my F10 while I had it, save for the terrible RFT issue that is unfortunately a feature that we will have to all deal with in the future. lucky us

I said it a bunch of times, my F10 was 75% of the E60 in the twisties and 150% of it on the highway. YMMV

Of course the main issue is that owning a BMW is about the je ne sais quoi isn't it? That feeling you get when you see an S curve in front of you. If you are left wanting because you are in an F10 in that situation, many understand. has any company slogan been closer to the truth? the ultimate driving machine? has that dimmed with the intro of the F10/F01/F30?? i don't know. I think it's too soon to tell, but i don't feel so great about it.

and bm232, re: number steering in M3. come on man

I think BMW should really retire their slogan, the ultimate driving machine. It simply is not the ultimate anymore. With that said, I think the F10 is the ultimate combination of sport, luxury, comfort and build quality.

I've owned neither brand in the past and I drove both this weekend. Preferred the Audi. Interesting to me is that neither car is a "driver's" sports sedan rather they are well executed executive cars with many positives at the $65k +/- price point. I liked Audi's lack of hesitation vs the 5 but that is probably a minor point in the grand scheme of things. BMW had better steering feel but didn't handle as well. I could go on... If someone really wanted a true sports sedan, they would get the M or the S in the respective brands. And each is up to the task. Or the 3, which is a helluva car. To argue about "better" for this class of car seems pointless since neither will be at the track or the 'ring.

Originally Posted by Freddie Fringe

To argue about "better" for this class of car seems pointless since neither will be at the track or the 'ring.

You might be surpised what some of do with our executive cars!

12.6s@112mph by Mrs Dunderhi

Originally Posted by dunderhi

Originally Posted by Sophisto

...
And well around where I come from different than the A5 style, the A7 is not very much loved, some say the car reminds them of a dog relieving itself.
...

Hey all, I learn something new today.

Originally Posted by bayoucity

Hey all, I learn something new today.

So much for being inspired by the Miura.

Originally Posted by Freddie Fringe

I've owned neither brand in the past and I drove both this weekend. Preferred the Audi. Interesting to me is that neither car is a "driver's" sports sedan rather they are well executed executive cars with many positives at the $65k +/- price point. I liked Audi's lack of hesitation vs the 5 but that is probably a minor point in the grand scheme of things. BMW had better steering feel but didn't handle as well. I could go on... If someone really wanted a true sports sedan, they would get the M or the S in the respective brands. And each is up to the task. Or the 3, which is a helluva car. To argue about "better" for this class of car seems pointless since neither will be at the track or the 'ring.

When you got to the ring you see all kinds of cars...open to the public...given same drivers, an F30 or F10 will be faster than half the cars on the ring at any one time on average, in my opinion. Same goes for average track days. Are they race cars, of course not..but they can get along, especially with a skilled driver.

Congrats to the OP on his new Audi. Each person has their opinion.

I had 1 98 C4 quattro and two C5 A6 quattros (bought new). These cars were in the shop left and right. Service was bad.

Audis really lose value quickly. Lease rates are horrible. But, I like them--but not enough to go to them over BMW. And the posts about it looking like a dog taking a dump is classic.

I looked at one before getting my 550...no way. It was cheaper than my 550 and definitely felt cheaper. Its ride was harsh. It is no 550 with adj. suspension.

Outside of that, it's a nice car. Not uncommon for some long term followers drop a car and go off the reservation.

I've had far more luck in terms of quality with BMW than any Audi or MB product.

Originally Posted by schnell525

Congrats to the OP on his new Audi. Each person has their opinion.

I've had far more luck in terms of quality with BMW than any Audi or MB product.

My sentiments exactly! In terms of quality regarding the vehicles I've owned the order is as follows: Lexus, BMW, Audi, and Lancia...actually, there should be an "*" next to Lancia because it was so poor in quality and reliability that it was more dead-weight than car! I don't include the Panamera on this list because I've only owned it for about 6 months. So far, though, it seems to be keeping pace with the BMWs I've owned. Anyway, the point is we buy (or lease) what we buy for various reasons...fun quotient, reliability, affordability, keeping up with the Joneses, etc....and that's the way it's supposed to be. Satisfaction is getting your money's worth; whatever that translates into. I don't necessarily agree with generalizations regarding cars, like "the worst ever", unless we're talking about Lancias or Yugos, which ARE generally regarded as some of the worst ever! However, I think when we do make such generalizations, typically, those statements are perceived by those on the receiving end as de-valuing in some form or fashion and, consequently, are personalized. Cars and car ownership is so much a part of the American experience that sometimes I think the Bill of Rights should be expanded to include a related Amendment. That is to say that we LOVE our cars. In this connection, I am sure there are some of us here that once owned what could be objectively described as a rolling pile of junk that, nonetheless, was as dear to us as a family member...and that's the point! We view most things through our own prism and I think that needs to be considered when we offer any type of critiques. The only other point worth mentioning is that it is often perilous to those who come to a car brand forum offering a "versus thread" suggesting that a vehicle which does not conform to the brand that the forum represents may be superior. It strikes me that the only times that something like this would be legitimate, and perceived as fair, are when objective data is used to make the point. [For example, how one's seat feels in a seat is not an objective standard.]

Originally Posted by schnell525

Congrats to the OP on his new Audi. Each person has their opinion.

I had 1 98 C4 quattro and two C5 A6 quattros (bought new). These cars were in the shop left and right. Service was bad.

Audis really lose value quickly. Lease rates are horrible. But, I like them--but not enough to go to them over BMW.

This is exacty why Audi do not sell as well as BMW in the US, pass reputation. I owned a few Audis from 07 to 2012 and each one of them have been very reliable and customer service was better than BMW's. As far as trade in value, Audi is right up there with Lexus, both brand has a higher resale value than BMW.

This thread got Audi so concerned it sent Rupert Stadler, Audi chief executive to check out the latest BMWs at the Detroit Auto Show.

Originally Posted by 5Xwen

This thread got Audi so concerned it sent Rupert Stadler, Audi chief executive to check out the latest BMWs at the Detroit Auto Show.

He's probably trying to determine whether any of the A5's DNA is discernable in the 4 Series!

Originally Posted by Freddie Fringe

To argue about "better" for this class of car seems pointless since neither will be at the track or the 'ring.

Hmmm - I beg to differ...

@leslierc, how is the pana doing in terms of quality and keeping its value?

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Hmmm - I beg to differ...

I somewhat agree with him, at the end of the day, nor the A6, A7 or F10 will ever see the track. Performance should not be the only determining factor when choosing between these cars. Whats the point of racing four door sedans to the next red light or racing on a public highway pass a 100 MPH and see who is stupid enough to get pull over first. Performance in these cars in my opinion is about highway passing power and the hint of sportiness one can enjoy once a while and all of these cars offers that.

Originally Posted by Sophisto

@leslierc, how is the pana doing in terms of quality and keeping its value?

I'm still enjoying it very much...thanks! Quality-wise, I would put it on par with every BMW I've owned; which is to say that it's meeting all of my expectations. As for value, I could not be happier since I purchased it "slightly used" (1025 on the odometer) at a little over $20K off the original sticker. We'll see how that holds-up when the time comes for me to move on to something else.

Originally Posted by The X Men

I somewhat agree with him, at the end of the day, nor the A6, A7 or F10 will ever see the track. Performance should not be the only determining factor when choosing between these cars. Whats the point of racing four door sedans to the next red light or racing on a public highway pass a 100 MPH and see who is stupid enough to get pull over first. Performance in these cars in my opinion is about highway passing power and the hint of sportiness one can enjoy once a while and all of these cars offers that.

I meant I drove a 5 series on the ring.

Performance is not the issue with the F10 imo. All the competitors in this segment makes cars that are fast enough in pretty much any situation on the road. The issue for me is the feel. Some like a very tight, communicative and agile car. This often comes with trade-offs in terms of ride quality and luxury. Others prefer a smoother more luxurious and forgiving ride with all luxury bells and whistles, this often means trade-off in terms of agility and chassi comunication. Both types can be viscously fast on the road, outright track performance has little to do with it, even if optimal track performance and sporty feel often goes hand-in-hand.

Originally Posted by solstice

Performance is not the issue with the F10 imo. All the competitors in this segment makes cars that are fast enough in pretty much any situation on the road. The issue for me is the feel. Some like a very tight, communicative and agile car. This often comes with trade-offs in terms of ride quality and luxury. Others prefer a smoother more luxurious and forgiving ride with all luxury bells and whistles, this often means trade-off in terms of agility and chassi comunication. Both types can be viscously fast on the road, outright track performance has little to do with it, even if optimal track performance and sporty feel often goes hand-in-hand.

Well said, you nail it.
I think you like the more tight car, like the M3, I understand what you are talking about.
I drive long distances on European highways, the F11 is better at that than my E61 was.
Long fast highway cruises, this car is a marvel at that.
The 250hp/540nm is ample the suspension perfect, fast traveling at modest consumption, passing Amsterdam, Antwerp, Lille, Paris and Beaune on one tank@120 km/hr is no exception.
No stops so a good chair and nice steering wheel with the silent behaviour of the car, it is just outstanding.
Not saying any bad of the M3, but for these trips I prefer my oil burner.

Originally Posted by solstice

It seems to be mainly three camps here.

1. Drivers who put luxury first. Many are coming from other brands since they found the E60 lacking in one or several of: ride quality, interior and exterior styling. They want as much sportiness as possible as longs it doesn't compromise luxury. This group has found heaven in the F10.

2. Drivers who put sportiness first. The E60 was the only car in it's segment who did this. These drivers often wants luxury as long as it doesn't compromise sportiness. Most of this group comes from an E60 with sport suspension. This group is often dissapointed in the F10.

3. Drivers who has experienced quality issues with early build F10's.

So, it's manifestly apparent that the above classifications are erroneous. Life is a matter of balancing competing wants and needs; not a simple what is "first".

Originally Posted by solstice

When you get kids the choices gets really narrow if you are a sports enthusiasts.

Even in your case, you are not placing sportiness first. It's a four door sedan first, which is your need. Then comes the balance between your need and sportiness (your want).

My 3 passengers complained when I was driving the M3 sportily, although I was enjoying it as a driver. Passengers in the M5 found it acceptable

Drivers/owners balance both wants (which can include luxury) and needs. There are different BMW cars. You can continue to enjoy the M3 as a driver, and another may enjoy the F10 more taking into account sportiness, luxury, passengers' needs etc. The Lotus driver may say that he is placing sportiness first, and not you; which is not incorrect, as you need to balance your needs and wants.

Originally Posted by solstice

Some like a very tight, communicative and agile car. This often comes with trade-offs in terms of ride quality and luxury. Others prefer a smoother more luxurious and forgiving ride with all luxury bells and whistles, this often means trade-off in terms of agility and chassi comunication.

It's not a simple issue of what the drivers themselves prefer personally. Many drivers need to take into account what their passengers prefer, eg I enjoy driving a M3 sportily but my wife and kids may be uncomfortable. It's a balancing act, if I may reiterate.

ps some have made this point - as cars are getting larger, drivers preferring more sportiness can go for the smaller version eg the F30 which is the size of a 5, generations back. Leave the F10 to people who want a balance of sportiness and luxury in a car of such size.

ps check out the 4 series http://www.bmwblog.com/2013/01/16/vi...oit-auto-show/

Originally Posted by The X Men

I think BMW should really retire their slogan, the ultimate driving machine.

I would think it is the ultimate (or near ultimate ) for the present "comparable" version, eg not comparing a 3 series vs 5 or a 2 seater against the 5, or a 5 series 2 generations back against the present 5 you may wish to check out the M135i whether it is also the ultimate against a "comparable" car.

A "comparable" Audi btw, is not the ultimate due to its numb steering

Originally Posted by highyo

and bm232, re: number steering in M3. come on man

didn't know that BMW had a new model

tell me, before this thread started, would you have said whether there is any difference in steering feel when the M3 is driven at lower speeds?

Originally Posted by solstice

Performance is not the issue with the F10 imo. All the competitors in this segment makes cars that are fast enough in pretty much any situation on the road. The issue for me is the feel. Some like a very tight, communicative and agile car. This often comes with trade-offs in terms of ride quality and luxury. Others prefer a smoother more luxurious and forgiving ride with all luxury bells and whistles, this often means trade-off in terms of agility and chassi comunication. Both types can be viscously fast on the road, outright track performance has little to do with it, even if optimal track performance and sporty feel often goes hand-in-hand.

Performance wise, if performance equals to speed and handling, then there are other car makers out there that make better performing cars within the F10's segment. How important is performance to the typical 5 series customer is the million dollar question. Is it top priority, 2nd or 3rd? According to BMW, it is not the 1st, since the F10 emphasized a design that is both sporty and yet still with a comfortable ride.
I agree that handling is all about trade offs, a stiffer suspension usually mean a harsher ride and vise versa. Anybody can make a stiff suspension that handles well and the same for a comfortable suspension that floats like a boat. The perfect suspension would be both comfortable and yet handles well. So far, the F10's dynamic adaptive suspension is the best at this for the money.
That takes us to steering feel which is one of BMW's attributes that makes a BMW the ultimate driving machine. Along comes electric steering and all that is gone. I sure hope BMW will improve its EPS and regain the BMW steering feel of the pass. As of now, BMW is no longer the ultimate driving machine, but its one heck of a well build sporty comfortbale car.