Former 5er guy now with Audi comparison

Originally Posted by The X Men

Performance wise, if performance equals to speed and handling, then there are other car makers out there that make better performing cars within the F10's segment. How important is performance to the typical 5 series customer is the million dollar question. Is it top priority, 2nd or 3rd? According to BMW, it is not the 1st, since the F10 emphasized a design that is both sporty and yet still with a comfortable ride.
I agree that handling is all about trade offs, a stiffer suspension usually mean a harsher ride and vise versa. Anybody can make a stiff suspension that handles well and the same for a comfortable suspension that floats like a boat. The perfect suspension would be both comfortable and yet handles well. So far, the F10's dynamic adaptive suspension is the best at this for the money.
That takes us to steering feel which is one of BMW's attributes that makes a BMW the ultimate driving machine. Along comes electric steering and all that is gone. I sure hope BMW will improve its EPS and regain the BMW steering feel of the pass. As of now, BMW is no longer the ultimate driving machine, but its one heck of a well build sporty comfortbale car.

Sporty suspension is not just about how stiff it is. It's also about how buttoned down it is, the feel that the car sucks to the Tarmac. Factors like suspension technology, unsprung weight , overall weight, geometry etc. are factors that impact the feel as well not just how stiff of a spring you use. Many lesser manufacturers wish it was that easy...

Originally Posted by The X Men

Performance wise, if performance equals to speed and handling, then there are other car makers out there that make better performing cars within the F10's segment. How important is performance to the typical 5 series customer is the million dollar question. Is it top priority, 2nd or 3rd? According to BMW, it is not the 1st, since the F10 emphasized a design that is both sporty and yet still with a comfortable ride.
I agree that handling is all about trade offs, a stiffer suspension usually mean a harsher ride and vise versa. Anybody can make a stiff suspension that handles well and the same for a comfortable suspension that floats like a boat. The perfect suspension would be both comfortable and yet handles well. So far, the F10's dynamic adaptive suspension is the best at this for the money.
That takes us to steering feel which is one of BMW's attributes that makes a BMW the ultimate driving machine. Along comes electric steering and all that is gone. I sure hope BMW will improve its EPS and regain the BMW steering feel of the pass. As of now, BMW is no longer the ultimate driving machine, but its one heck of a well build sporty comfortbale car.

I think everyone has gone to electric steering, even Porsche...I don't agree that all steering feel is gone, especially in sport + on my 550i its pretty good and I'm coming from an M3. The first model year with EPS was probably bad, but they've been working on it for awhile now and the software has improved...unfortunately that rap that electric steering sucks is going to stick for awhile.

Originally Posted by solstice

Sporty suspension is not just about how stiff it is. It's also about how buttoned down it is, the feel that the car sucks to the Tarmac. Factors like suspension technology, unsprung weight , overall weight, geometry etc. are factors that impact the feel as well not just how stiff of a spring you use. Many lesser manufacturers wish it was that easy...

Do you mean lesser manufacturers such as Subaru? I drove a Subaru BRZ for about a day or so, that car can drive circles around the F10. The Subrau electric steering is probably one of the best I have ever driven, very nice feedback, much bgetter than anything BMW has to offer. I agree there are other factors involve in how a car handles, but suspension is probably the most important factor.

Originally Posted by The X Men

Do you mean lesser manufacturers such as Subaru? I drove a Subaru BRZ for about a day or so, that car can drive circles around the F10. The Subrau electric steering is probably one of the best I have ever driven, very nice feedback, much bgetter than anything BMW has to offer. I agree there are other factors involve in how a car handles, but suspension is probably the most important factor.

That's an unfair comparision. That car was designed as a track car first, with comfort thrown in after the fact. The F10 is designed in the opposite direction - comfort first and sport/track feeling second.

Originally Posted by The X Men

Do you mean lesser manufacturers such as Subaru? I drove a Subaru BRZ for about a day or so, that car can drive circles around the F10. The Subrau electric steering is probably one of the best I have ever driven, very nice feedback, much bgetter than anything BMW has to offer. I agree there are other factors involve in how a car handles, but suspension is probably the most important factor.

Mazda and Subaru know their stuff. It's just a pity they don't compete in this segment. I was just arguing your point that anyone can put in stiff springs and make a sporty suspension. It's more to it than that to achieve a good sports feel that is highly communicative, stiff and buttoned down. I was mainly thinking of Audi who has coveted BMWs reputation as athletic, communicative driver's cars, like forever but never even get close when BMW is on their game and had to settle to compete for runner up.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

That's an unfair comparision. That car was designed as a track car first, with comfort thrown in after the fact. The F10 is designed in the opposite direction - comfort first and sport/track feeling second.

Exactly...can't compare.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

That's an unfair comparision. That car was designed as a track car first, with comfort thrown in after the fact. The F10 is designed in the opposite direction - comfort first and sport/track feeling second.

And this is what it all come back to. Sportiness is now 2nd priority in the five. It didn't use to be since the cars had a platform with priority on sportiness and then there were options to dial it up further. The F10 is built on a platform to be a luxury car first and it also lacks the options to really make the most of what sportiness can be had ( hence the popularity of Dinan, ACS etc springs ). It's more than sufficient for what most want of this car and still better or close enough to the best of it's competitors but fails to entice many in the group that are looking for E60 or higher level of sporty feel.

Originally Posted by solstice

And this is what it all come back to. Sportiness is now 2nd priority in the five. It didn't use to be since the cars had a platform with priority on sportiness and then there were options to dial it up further. The F10 is built on a platform to be a luxury car first and it also lacks the options to really make the most of it. It's more than sufficient for most and still better or close enough to the best of it's competitors but fails to entice many in the group that are looking for E60 or higher level of sporty feel.

Luxury has always been the primary goal.

Originally Posted by miamiboyca

Luxury has always been the primary goal.

I disagree, if it had been the cars would have been built differently in the past since the five has never been the most luxurious in it's class until now. The ultimate driving machine is more than a slogan, it is a culture that drives priorities.

Luxury was not always BMW primary goal. Just look at their bread and butter model, the 3 series, the E46 and E90 are hardly luxury sedans. Fast forward to the F30, its now more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan, much like the rest of the BMW line up's latest offering.

solstice, my point about the suspension was that It is harder to design a suspension that can both handle well and provide ride comfort than just an all out sport suspension that lacks ride comfort or a soft suspension that does not handle well. In my option, the F10's current suspension set up is has a very good combo of comfort and soprtiness. Just because it is not the sportiest suspension, that doesnt mean its not advance.

Originally Posted by The X Men

Luxury was not always BMW primary goal. Just look at their bread and butter model, the 3 series, the E46 and E90 are hardly luxury sedans. Fast forward to the F30, its now more of a luxury sedan than a sport sedan, much like the rest of the BMW line up's latest offering.

solstice, my point about the suspension was that It is harder to design a suspension that can both handle well and provide ride comfort than just an all out sport suspension that lacks ride comfort or a soft suspension that does not handle well. In my option, the F10's current suspension set up is has a very good combo of comfort and soprtiness. Just because it is not the sportiest suspension, that doesnt mean its not advance.

I think we agree except I have not really experienced a very good combo yet. One priority dominates in any given setup and in the F10 it's luxury for all available suspension options. It's IMO a good luxury suspension with mediocre sports feel.

I don't have time to read 6 pages of pissing match, but the A7/S7 is literally and figuratively butt ugly and I'd never consider it because of that. I have no idea who would think they're attractive cars. I see them around town all the time now and wonder what the owners were thinking. The A6/S6 is fine, if a little boring.

I like the S6, but the cost of ordering a new S6 compared to my 550xi with Dinan 2 was close to a $20k delta given the $11,300 I received off MSRP of the BMW. Although the S6 is the better performer between the two, I didn't feel the difference was significant enough to justify the 20 grand. Not to mention the fact that it seems as if Audi changes its model's body style every lunar cycle.

Originally Posted by solstice

I think we agree except I have not really experienced a very good combo yet. One priority dominates in any given setup and in the F10 it's luxury for all available suspension options. It's IMO a good luxury suspension with mediocre sports feel.

The Lexus LS460 sport is a good luxury suspension with mediocre sports feel, the F10 is a bit better than that. If we assign a percentage to comfort and sportiness, the Lexus LS would probably be 80% comfort and 20% sport, whereas a M3 is 95% sport and 5% comfort. If someone can break that 100% total in a matter of speaking, that will make for a pretty good suspension. As it stands, I would give the F10 with dynamic suspension maybe 65% comfort and 40% sport, which adds up to 105%, better than most suspension. Active suspension is the future, whereas a computer can adjust to road condition and driver's demand to provide a smooth and yet sporty ride.