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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #376  
Old 01-17-2013, 11:03 PM
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justinnum1 justinnum1 is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The CLA is FWD? Forget it then. Torque steer sucks.
+1. I don't even consider FWD when i am looking for a car.
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  #377  
Old 01-17-2013, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Well Audi has the option of making their A4 or S4 leases more attractive, but they choose not to.
You need to be a volume seller to make profit from huge incentives and lease deals. Audi had a rough patch historically in the U.S. and only in recent years have they gained traction. BMW had a head start in the U.S. and Audi does not have an expansive dealer network. If you cut margin without volume or a dealer network to sell enough of them, you're taking a huge hit.
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  #378  
Old 01-17-2013, 11:37 PM
ilhan1103 ilhan1103 is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Can you get heated seats without leather? If so, that could save $1,450.
You can here in yurop.
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  #379  
Old 01-17-2013, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
What are you 19? Your user title says living life in the fast lane - bet they park your car up front at the Valencia in Santana Row.

Nothing to be Jealous about. I've owned two 335's, a 2007 e92 and a 2009 e92, wrecked and lemoned respectively. Been a member here since 2007, just talking to my buddy BoltJames.
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  #380  
Old 01-18-2013, 12:28 AM
Vector Pilot Vector Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Again that depends on whether BMW wants to sell 320i by volume, or 328i by volume. They can easily subsidize one a lot more than the other, depending on market reaction and their need for sales numbers vs. profit.
Agree with the comment, yes BMW's intent is to make the 320 their volume leader by being, and I'm assuming, extremely aggressive with attractive lease and purchase incentives. Researching the 320, it has received good reviews worldwide so it's a no-brainer introducing it to the US market. Comparing it to the 328 it's numbers suggests slight drop in performance but offers all the characteristics we here in the U.S. have come to expect from 3ER. Some may argue it will cannibalise the F30 line, I say no, it will add more value to the 328 and make the 335 even more desirable. If you look it how my wife spec out the model to include the Sport Pack, she refers to it as "M Sport-Ultra-Lite." In our world, that's value at discount.

Last edited by Vector Pilot; 01-18-2013 at 07:20 AM.
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  #381  
Old 01-18-2013, 07:01 AM
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1985mb 1985mb is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
The CLA is FWD? Forget it then. Torque steer sucks.
AWD will also be available, FYI.
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  #382  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sf_loft View Post
What are you 19? Your user title says living life in the fast lane - bet they park your car up front at the Valencia in Santana Row.

Nothing to be Jealous about. I've owned two 335's, a 2007 e92 and a 2009 e92, wrecked and lemoned respectively. Been a member here since 2007, just talking to my buddy BoltJames.
U mad, bro?

That was directed at the Lexus marketing whine about how BMW and MB count their sales figures.
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  #383  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Bingo.

As you've discovered, a non-enthusiast can trade off horsepower for packages. That $4,300 difference in the 320i goes a long way to make up for some of the 328i's option shortfalls. You can add Premium, Lighting, and Nav with $1000 to spare vs. a fairly stripped 328i, or you can forgo it all, kill the leather too, and save almost $5,300.

BJ
I really don't see that BMW is doing anything differently than they have been doing for years. The base car comes with the standard suspension. The sport suspension is optional. Many other features, most of which I would consider luxury or convenience features are optional as well the same as they were on the E9x.

I still have the window sticker for my E93.

These features were all extra cost options:
Space Gray Metallic
Cold Weather Package
Premium Package
Sport Package
Steptronic Automatic Transmission
Paddle Shifters
Comfort Access with Comfort Load
Park Distance Control
IPod and USB Adapter
Navigation System
HD Radio
Satellite Radio

Dealer installed options included:
Burl Walnut Shift Lever
Burl Walnut Parking Brake Handle
Style 196 Rims
Front Aero Lip
Wind Deflector
Luggage Set
Aluminum Accelerator, Brake and Dead Pedals

All of this added almost $15,000 to the MSRP of the car.

The only option that had an influence on the way the car drives is the Sport Package because it included the sport suspension. The rest were all bells and whistles that I think make driving (or riding) in the car more pleasant but have no influence on the way the car drives.

CA
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  #384  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:39 PM
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A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
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  #385  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:00 PM
Vector Pilot Vector Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by hufington View Post
A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
I agree with your last paragraph. However with that being said regarding the 320 will not appeal to American car enthusiast, I recommend researching other BMW forums and there you'll read about how enthusiasts are discussing various options of tuning the 320's engine to achieve it's full potential.
Highest Regards.
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  #386  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:13 PM
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hufington hufington is offline
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Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
I agree with your last paragraph. However with that being said regarding the 320 will not appeal to American car enthusiast, I recommend researching other BMW forums and there you'll read about how enthusiasts are discussing various options of tuning the 320's engine to achieve it's full potential.
Highest Regards.
I am aware of the search for improving the performance of the 320, but what is the point of spending a couple of thousand dollars to bring it at a 328 level when the price of a base 328 and 320 are only 4K from one another?
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  #387  
Old 01-18-2013, 04:24 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I really don't see that BMW is doing anything differently than they have been doing for years. The base car comes with the standard suspension. The sport suspension is optional. Many other features, most of which I would consider luxury or convenience features are optional as well the same as they were on the E9x.

CA
The F30 base suspension is much softer than the E9X base suspension, so one has to spend money for the Sport suspension just to get back to scratch. Some say that isn't enough, have to go further to get the whole DHP including Adaptive M.

Regarding options, if you think of the 320i as a 328i with a "Performance Delete Package", one can save $4,000-$5,000 by merely taking out the horsepower and the leather.

So, yes, it's not different per se than past BMW 3 Series. However, this is the first time they're reshaping the horsepower and reshaping the Premium package so that someone can comfortably lease at $299, or go no higher than $399 for a very well-optioned car.

BJ
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  #388  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:35 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hufington View Post
A 320i does not make sense for an American car enthusiast.

It was and still is a substantial seller in countries where you pay an absurd amount of tax on cars with engines above 2 liters (For instance in Turkey, a base 320i costs roughly $70,000 and a base 335i would cost a whopping $195,000 had they offered!)

They started this marketing tactics with the E30 320is for Italy to offer something similar to a standard 325i - and they hit the motherload. From then on, they always offered the smaller engines in the 3 series with success. They are even offering a BMW 316i in those european countries.

But here in the US, the tax difference is not too substantial as both cars are closely priced and the advantage of choosing a smaller engine car is not very big while purchasing. In terms of maintenance and gas mileage, they still don't make too much of a sense as the difference between a 320and a 328 in terms of mpg and maintenance cost is very small.

Also, the car in its base form is not very special and I highly doubt that people concerned with price would switch over to a BMW from a comparable Japanese sedan as they only get a barebone car as opposed to a car with lots of equipment for the same price and better reliability in the long run.

The BMW name may be alluring to some and it may mean that they are stepping up to a higher class car,however, the 320i is the base model of 3 series and you have to pay dearly for even the basic accessories like HID lights, etc. In that respect, the car loses its attraction.

My opinion is that BMW is bringing this car to get a piece of MB and Audi's marketshare from the segment and increase its sales overall. It will also help them with the CAFE regulations in the long run.
Simply, the 320 market in the US is not car enthusiasts. It's an entry level 3 series.
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  #389  
Old 01-18-2013, 05:56 PM
Vector Pilot Vector Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by hufington View Post
I am aware of the search for improving the performance of the 320, but what is the point of spending a couple of thousand dollars to bring it at a 328 level when the price of a base 328 and 320 are only 4K from one another?
You make a good point that should be directed to the enthusiasts. At first I was in total agreement with your comments regarding the introduction of the 320 into the US market until I looked the specs and realized it offered a big bang for the buck not only for entry level consumers but enthusiasts as well. I for one applaud the move and possibly might add one to my garage as daily driver.
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  #390  
Old 01-18-2013, 06:08 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
Simply, the 320 market in the US is not car enthusiasts. It's an entry level 3 series.
It can be for both. The fact you can get a sport package that is really for sporty driving only, and no other bells and whistles, that can appeal to many enthusiasts. For those who must have HP, get a tune for no more than $700 you are there.

The 320 is not for those who want bling bling (which has nothing to do with driving itself) to go with the car.
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  #391  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:15 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
The F30 base suspension is much softer than the E9X base suspension, so one has to spend money for the Sport suspension just to get back to scratch. Some say that isn't enough, have to go further to get the whole DHP including Adaptive M.

Regarding options, if you think of the 320i as a 328i with a "Performance Delete Package", one can save $4,000-$5,000 by merely taking out the horsepower and the leather.

So, yes, it's not different per se than past BMW 3 Series. However, this is the first time they're reshaping the horsepower and reshaping the Premium package so that someone can comfortably lease at $299, or go no higher than $399 for a very well-optioned car.

BJ
I have very little experience with a standard suspension E9x and have never driven any iteration of an F30 so I will take your word for it. I was under the impression that the objections to the harshness of the E9x suspension was pretty much directed at the sport suspension. The harshness of the sport suspension on the E9x was a major issue for me and for a number of other people who I know who I would characterize as "enthusiasts".

With the technology available today there is no reason why a good handling car has to have a rock hard suspension and can not have a comfortable ride. Actually a rock hard suspension is bad for handling if the car is going to be driven in a real world environment. The point being that the fact that the F30 has a softer suspension than the E90 does not necessarily mean that it if not enthusiast oriented or does not handle as well. It it does not handle as well as the E90 it may just point to the fact that the suspension is poorly sorted out. That was certainly the case with the E9x sport suspension except that it was poorly sorted out in a different way.

What I wound up buying with (the 335i) was a sport/luxury car that it terms of ride quality and handling wasn't particularly good in either category. The irony was that it was easily rectified (once I figured out what to do) and if BMW had done it at the factory it probably would have not even added to the cost of manufacturing the car by a significant amount, if it all.

CA
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  #392  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:25 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I have very little experience with a standard suspension E9x and have never driven any iteration of an F30 so I will take your word for it. I was under the impression that the objections to the harshness of the E9x suspension was pretty much directed at the sport suspension. The harshness of the sport suspension on the E9x was a major issue for me and for a number of other people who I know who I would characterize as "enthusiasts".
CA
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
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  #393  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:32 PM
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The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
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  #394  
Old 01-19-2013, 05:01 AM
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The stripped down models are just targeting the brand conscious buyers. BMW to me was always about Performance + Luxury and the stripped down models are neither. Just get a decked out Accord or Camry and come out ahead with a better car and keep some $$ in your pocket.
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  #395  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:06 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
The 2011 335is was definitely harsher than the 2011 335i m sport, but that was deliberate.
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  #396  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:09 AM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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The 2011 335is was definitely harsher than the 2011 335i m sport, but that was deliberate.
The two cars use the same suspension. I don't have any issues with the suspension or ride in my 2011 335is vert. Possibly the ride is a bit softer in the vert as compared to the coupe like it is in the Porsche 911 GTS vert versus the coupe? Or, possibly there is no issue at all? I wanted a sporty convertible and that's what I got. If I wanted a cushy ride, I would have purchased a Buick (maybe now an F30 as the ride has been described as soft?)
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  #397  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:32 AM
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Saintor Saintor is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
Well my 2007 has no harshness. Very smooth riding even with the suspension lowered.
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  #398  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:55 AM
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mdsbuc mdsbuc is offline
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Originally Posted by jenwon View Post
The stripped down models are just targeting the brand conscious buyers. BMW to me was always about Performance + Luxury and the stripped down models are neither. Just get a decked out Accord or Camry and come out ahead with a better car and keep some $$ in your pocket.
I have to disagree with you. First of all, BMWs haven't always been about luxury. As to performance, I think that there are plenty of people who want the driver's "feel" that a BMW gives, especially if all you add is the sport package. There are a lot of driving enthusiasts who are not as concerned about straight ahead acceleration, but love the way a BMW "rides the rails" when cornering. They may also love the seats, steering wheel, love the dash display, love the "in the cockpit feel" that the F30 brings. These are things that an Accord or a Camry can never provide. The badge is secondary. I've owned a fully optioned Accord. It's fine transportation to get you from point A to point B. But, with front wheel drive, a steering wheel with no grip, and seats that won't hold you in place while cornering, it's no BMW. Not even a 320i.
.
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  #399  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:13 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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The harshness of the sport suspension on the E90 was resolved for the 2011-2012 MY. It was short lived though, before it was replaced by F30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
IMO it may have been improved but was not resolved. I had an extended test drive in a 2011 335is. It was better than my 07 was as it came from the factory but not as good as my 07 with non-RFTs and Koni FSD dampers.

CA
I'm comparing my 2009 E90 M-Sport XDrive with my 2013 F30 Luxury RWD.

My recollection was that my XDrive had the standard suspension, correct me please if I'm wrong there.

The F30 is just as planted as my E90 was. In fact, might be stickier in very tight curves at irresponsible speeds; comparing the two I feel more confident in the F30. All 4 wheels are locked-in, the DTC or DSC warning lights don't come on. And, very importantly, the road imperfections and pothole explosions of the E90 are a thing of the past.

The trade off is that the F30 has body lean in those turns that did not exist in the E90. Again, the F30 is planted in hard corners, the wheels do not slip a bit, but the body roll is evident. I assume that to soften the pothole situation the car leans.

Let me know if that makes sense.

BJ
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  #400  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:22 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

Let me know if that makes sense.

BJ
Can a car feel more planted when there is too much body roll?
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