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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #526  
Old 01-24-2013, 05:35 AM
shabadoo25 shabadoo25 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No, I think all BMW drivers understand that.

The way it works is you drive your Accord and you drive your Camry and eventually you make a bit more money and you feel a bit more comfortable and then you see your friends getting nicer cars and you stop by the BMW dealer and you realize you can afford a 3 Series so long as you give up all the goodies you got for free on the Toyota and Honda products and in a moment of clarity you say "okay" and then you take delivery and appreciate the refinement and you enjoy the driving experience and life is good until your lease is up and you realize that you really miss the goodies but you can't go back to those off-brands and so you suck it up and pinch a little from the college fund and get a fully loaded 3 Series because BMW has gotten you in its status trap from which there is no escape.

BJ
+1

Except I would call it a "nothing I have ever driven feels like this" trap moreso than status.
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  #527  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by mynycbimmer View Post
It wouldn't surprise me if, sooner or later, the 3 series outsells both the Camry and Accord in North America. It already does in most of Europe where the 320i and even cheaper 3s have been on sale for years. The corporate strategy seems to be to move downmarket in a bid to shift more cars. Even the most expensive bimmers aren't that expensive any more, especially compared to the top of the line Audi's and MBs.
This analysis is all wrong.

We just went through this on this thread.

The 320 is not really the same price as an Accord or a Camry.

A fully loaded Accord and an absolute stripped down 320 are the same price. But here is why that still doesn't matter, and where you're off target.

1) A fully loaded Accord is out of reach for most people at $33k, but a base price Accord is only $21k. Most Accord buyers opt for the much cheaper versions. Just look around...
2) if you load up a 320 with all the same options and features as a fully loaded Accord, the 320 is about $10k more. Some will buy a stripped down 320, this is true, but most people will not.
3) the 320 competes with the Acura TSX, Acura ILX and the Nissan Maxima, not with the Accord.

There is no possibility, none, absolutely zero possibility of a car with a base price of $33,000 being a top 5 seller in this country.

In order for BMW to top the Accord or Camry, they would have to be at the same entry level price point, which is at about $21,000.

Do you honestly think BMW is going to sell car with a $20,000 entry level price point? Let's not go off the deep edge here. There is a simple reason why a Nissan Maxima doesn't outsell an Accord or Camry. It's a much better car, but it's also more money and out of reach for most consumers.
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Last edited by krash; 01-24-2013 at 06:18 AM.
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  #528  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:49 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris90 View Post

Once you go BMW it's definitely hard to go somewhere else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shabadoo25 View Post
+1

Except I would call it a "nothing I have ever driven feels like this" trap moreso than status.
Yup.

Some are into the status, some are into the performance. For me, honestly, it's about the design. I just think that BMW makes the best looking cars in this segment. So even if they screwed up the driving dynamics or lowered the prices to the point of losing all status I'd still buy them as I just think they look so much better than all the other sport sedans out there.

BJ
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  #529  
Old 01-24-2013, 06:52 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by krash View Post
This analysis is all wrong.

We just went through this on this thread.

The 320 is not really the same price as an Accord or a Camry.

A fully loaded Accord and an absolute stripped down 320 are the same price. But here is why that still doesn't matter, and where you're off target.

1) A fully loaded Accord is out of reach for most people at $33k, but a base price Accord is only $21k. Most Accord buyers opt for the much cheaper versions. Just look around...
2) if you load up a 320 with all the same options and features as a fully loaded Accord, the 320 is about $10k more. Some will buy a stripped down 320, this is true, but most people will not.
3) the 320 competes with the Acura TSX, Acura ILX and the Nissan Maxima, not with the Accord.

There is no possibility, none, absolutely zero possibility of a car with a base price of $33,000 being a top 5 seller in this country.

In order for BMW to top the Accord or Camry, they would have to be at the same entry level price point, which is at about $21,000.

Do you honestly think BMW is going to sell car with a $20,000 entry level price point? Let's not go off the deep edge here. There is a simple reason why a Nissan Maxima doesn't outsell an Accord or Camry. It's a much better car, but it's also more money and out of reach for most consumers.
Precisely.

It still amazes me how, week after week, certain BMW drivers just don't get what life is like in the real world. I keep wondering to myself if I'm raising my kids right. They didn't live a life where they were exposed to the 98%, besides hearing me tell stories of how the "other half lives" perhaps they too think that "anyone can afford a $35,000 car" because everyone they interact with simply can.

BJ
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  #530  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:18 AM
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Once you go BMW it's definitely hard to go somewhere else.
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.

Last edited by dtc100; 01-24-2013 at 09:20 AM.
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  #531  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:37 AM
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According to Autoguide.com the average price paid for a new car in the US is $30,748.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-of-30748.html
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  #532  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:46 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
It's hard to quantify satisfaction. Yes, in general Honda's are reliable and my wife currently owns an Insight. I'll let you know the dealer experience after I see them tonight about a recurring weatherstripping issue. I also had an Accord in the late 1990's that ate an AT at 55,000 miles costing me $2500.00. My 2 BMW's have been dead reliable but they have been leases so I haven't piled up the miles. Also, the dealer experience for me has been superb and is a reason to continue buying the brand.
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  #533  
Old 01-24-2013, 09:54 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
For a large portion of the driving public a loaded Accord is a good choice, It is not a bad driving car, is comfortable, reliable. luxurious and well equipped with convenience features. It is very good at getting people from one place to another safely, reliably and comfortably which is the primary reason that most people purchase automobiles.

CA
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  #534  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
True, and we probably won't find many of those on bimmerfest because they will have moved to other forums.
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  #535  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's hard to quantify satisfaction. Yes, in general Honda's are reliable and my wife currently owns an Insight. I'll let you know the dealer experience after I see them tonight about a recurring weatherstripping issue. I also had an Accord in the late 1990's that ate an AT at 55,000 miles costing me $2500.00. My 2 BMW's have been dead reliable but they have been leases so I haven't piled up the miles. Also, the dealer experience for me has been superb and is a reason to continue buying the brand.
My sister buys nothing but Hondas...so reliable. Yet her Accord killed its auto trans early and her Odyssey had door and trans problems too. Her Sienna has been less than stellar so she insists no more cars other than Hondas. Sigh.
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  #536  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
For a large portion of the driving public a loaded Accord is a good choice, It is not a bad driving car, is comfortable, reliable. luxurious and well equipped with convenience features. It is very good at getting people from one place to another safely, reliably and comfortably which is the primary reason that most people purchase automobiles.

CA
Absolutely, a loaded Honda Accord is a great choice. Also, getting a loaded Accord with a Nav, a rear view camera and a lot of other nice features will be far more appealing to a lot of consumers than buying a stripped down 320. By the time people load up the 320 with equivalent features, you're easily hitting the $40,000 mark.
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  #537  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I know people who traded in their Bimmers for Lexus or even Honda's after being fed up with dealer trips. To many people, driving dynamics is not as important as value and reliability. Many will be happy to spend $30k plus on a Toyota or Honda thinking it is reliable and will get good money back when they resell.
and some of these people have their Toyota 4runners die, cost them a fortune and come back.
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  #538  
Old 01-24-2013, 10:31 AM
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Hello all, I am a current Infiniti G37 6MT owner that has been caught by the BMW bug. After attending the Detroit auto show earlier this week, I can see myself either getting into a 320 with sport package or a base version of the 328. Unfortunately for Infiniti, the absence of a manual transmission for the 2014 Q50 is a deal breaker for me. I've owned 5 G35/G37s over the past 10 years, all with manual transmission.

If I can get a 320i 6MT with sport + lighting package for a lease around $350/mo and $1200 total due at signing, then I'm all in. I am 31, married with one child and am the target demographic for this vehicle. Since my lease is ending in December of this year, I have already started my search. Like most have already stated on this thread, the 180hp seems ultra conservative, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno numbers mirror that of an A4 2.0T (200hp, 235ft-lb). This is more than plenty for my tastes. Plus I'm sure there will be a tune available in the near future to bump engine output to near 328 power.
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  #539  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:02 AM
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Hello all, I am a current Infiniti G37 6MT owner that has been caught by the BMW bug. After attending the Detroit auto show earlier this week, I can see myself either getting into a 320 with sport package or a base version of the 328. Unfortunately for Infiniti, the absence of a manual transmission for the 2014 Q50 is a deal breaker for me. I've owned 5 G35/G37s over the past 10 years, all with manual transmission.

If I can get a 320i 6MT with sport + lighting package for a lease around $350/mo and $1200 total due at signing, then I'm all in. I am 31, married with one child and am the target demographic for this vehicle. Since my lease is ending in December of this year, I have already started my search. Like most have already stated on this thread, the 180hp seems ultra conservative, so I wouldn't be surprised if the dyno numbers mirror that of an A4 2.0T (200hp, 235ft-lb). This is more than plenty for my tastes. Plus I'm sure there will be a tune available in the near future to bump engine output to near 328 power.
Go for it!

The 320 with the sport package and lighting package sounds great. The sport package is especially a bargain. In addition to the sport suspension and bigger wheels, you get the M Steering wheel, and you don't even get the M Steering Wheel on a Sport Line 335. I'd also add the Nav and rear view camera too, but that's me...
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Last edited by krash; 01-24-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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  #540  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:30 AM
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1. This has been a very interesting thread to read since I have been on the verge of ordering a 328i and now have to consider this new 320 vehicle. (These other car brands aren't really on my radar anymore since few have both RWD + MT; I've had a MT accord for many years but am tired of the FWD.)

2. The 328 is going to be a tough sell to the wife when she sees commercials for these 320s; even worse if they release a 320d that gets 40 MPG. Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $6000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right? On top of that, I get to have the dakota leatherette in the sport package without being stuck with the black+red stitching? Going to be very, very hard to stick to the 328 unless I drive the 320 and it still feels like I'm in my Accord.

3. I fully understand why BMW would release this car. What I do not understand is why they have such peculiar interior color/finish combinations to particular lines. And the options on the 320 only confirm to me that it appears to be almost random.

Last edited by jjcruiser; 01-24-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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  #541  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:41 AM
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mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $4000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right?
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.

PS: You mention 328 would be hard sell after the 320...why is that? Is it just cost or something else? You mention 320d, but my guess it that will be closer to the 328 in price. In terms of MPG, the 320 is no better than the 328.
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Last edited by mr_clueless; 01-24-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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  #542  
Old 01-24-2013, 11:52 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.
I find it very odd that leather is not part of the 320 premium package yet the package costs slightly more than on the 328. I guess it helps that you gain the power memory seats and dimming mirrors that are std on the 328. Maybe this is an error on the configurator? Adding the additional $1450.00 makes the 320 not so much of a bargain considering the 60 hp loss and the loss of content. A 320 with ZPP and leather narrows the price gap with a 328 with ZPP by that $1450.00.
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  #543  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:29 PM
Vector Pilot Vector Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
1. This has been a very interesting thread to read since I have been on the verge of ordering a 328i and now have to consider this new 320 vehicle. (These other car brands aren't really on my radar anymore since few have both RWD + MT; I've had a MT accord for many years but am tired of the FWD.)

2. The 328 is going to be a tough sell to the wife when she sees commercials for these 320s; even worse if they release a 320d that gets 40 MPG. Since I was going to get a 328i sportline with DHP through ED; now I am confronted with getting a 320 sport package without the DHP. It appears to me that would save me about $6000, and the only downside is I lose 60hp and the DHP? Can that be right? On top of that, I get to have the dakota leatherette in the sport package without being stuck with the black+red stitching? Going to be very, very hard to stick to the 328 unless I drive the 320 and it still feels like I'm in my Accord.

3. I fully understand why BMW would release this car. What I do not understand is why they have such peculiar interior color/finish combinations to particular lines. And the options on the 320 only confirm to me that it appears to be almost random.
Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
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  #544  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:35 PM
shabadoo25 shabadoo25 is offline
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I would say that unless you are at that threshold level where the choice is between some other cheaper brand or splurging slightly for a BMW, go with the 328i. It is the truly revolutionary car in the current F30 lineup while the others are just evolutionary.
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  #545  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:36 PM
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Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
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What do you think the take rate for DHP really is? Certainly <10%.

BMW has already been on record as saying they want the 320i to be a simplified, "value conscious" car to order and buy, geared towards a younger market. The more features you can potentially add and order, the further you get away from this goal.

The enthusiasts with more income can chase the 328i/335i.
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  #546  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:38 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Reading the treads there's a lot of posters complaining that as of now the 320 will not offer DHP. I'm looking at a 320xi as daily driver with the Sport Pack, Xenons plus Nav. After driving the F30, DHP is a must. I see no logic why BMW is not making it an option. With that being said, history has shown if enough consumers pushed them, BMW offer it. For the record DHP is available as option for the 320 in the UK.
Highest Regards
What is the difference in prices between the base 328 and base 320 in UK? Does the UK 320 have the Technology package?

Last edited by dtc100; 01-24-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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  #547  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:50 PM
Vector Pilot Vector Pilot is offline
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What is the difference in prices between the base 328 and base 320 in UK? Does the UK 320 have the Technology package?
Not sure, you'll have to go the UK website for the answer. As for 320 including DHP, that would be within the context of what BMW intends, attract young enthusiasts. Listen to what BMW has to say about the introduction of the 320 to the USA.


http://www.bimmerfile.com/2013/01/18...-won-kyu-kang/

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  #548  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Additionally, since you're getting MT you will get a short throw shifter.

But compared to the 328i sport line you will also miss auto dimming mirrors, power seats, garage door opener, one exhaust pipe (), and some cosmetic stuff (like the black mirrors, high-gloss trim around the windows, and black exhaust pipe). If you are pricing with premium pack, then you just lose the leather, but it sounds like that is plus for you.
Thank you for summarizing some additional differences. I won't get the premium or leather regardless of which 32* I get. Are you saying that you get a short throw shifter on the 328 but not the 320?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
PS: You mention 328 would be hard sell after the 320...why is that? Is it just cost or something else? You mention 320d, but my guess it that will be closer to the 328 in price. In terms of MPG, the 320 is no better than the 328.
Because of the price. (My getting a car happens once every ten years and it requires a long and delicate negotiation. And not with the dealer.) If I lease and amortize then the monthly cost difference isn't that much. But the "sticker shock" for my wife is significant: the way I price out what I had planned to get as a 328 ends up over $40k (before accounting for ED invoice but adding in tax); the 320 would be closer to $35k.

I mentioned the 320d because I can offset the price increase by pointing out the MPG increase. But I'd be worried they will only release a 320d as an AT and that's a deal killer for me.
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  #549  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:57 PM
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SamS SamS is offline
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Originally Posted by Vector Pilot View Post
Not sure, you'll have to go the UK website for the answer. As for 320 including DHP, that would be within the context of what BMW intends, attract young enthusiasts. Listen to what BMW has to say about the introduction of the 320 to the USA.


http://www.bimmerfile.com/2013/01/18...-won-kyu-kang/

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Nowhere in that conversation do they specifically mention "enthusiasts". You are still misinterpreting the market for this car. Young, value-conscious and trim (as related to configuration options).. YES. Performance-minded or for the enthusiast? NO. That is what the 328i/335i is for.

320i could be the perfect car for a 70 year old fellow that enjoys cars, but doesn't need every last bit of performance... or even the 35 year old mom who wants something more fun to drive and styled better than the Camry.

Last edited by SamS; 01-24-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  #550  
Old 01-24-2013, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jjcruiser View Post
Thank you for summarizing some additional differences. I won't get the premium or leather regardless of which 32* I get. Are you saying that you get a short throw shifter on the 328 but not the 320?
Based on what I can see, you get it with the 320, but not with the 328, unless you go for M-sport with the 328.
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