335i vs 335 xi : both with snow tires

Responding to the last current post: When your tires start slipping, DSC cuts power to the point where they can once again gain traction. There are limits, of course, but on my 1999 528 it has often made the difference between when I can get up my driveway and when my neighbor cannot.

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

Thanks for your response, but I said I am not interested in tracking the car. I do have the msport package.

Whoops...somehow I read that you were interested in tracking your car. Sorry about that.

If you remove that from the equation then the benefit of the RWD car becomes almost moot. If you don't get a lot of inclement weather then I would steer you toward the RWD car anyway. While the weight, increased fuel consumption, and complexity of the AWD are basically non-issues they're still present so why deal with them for a small amount of inclement weather. Otherwise I recommend the AWD.

Originally Posted by ProRail

Responding to the last current post: When your tires start slipping, DSC cuts power to the point where they can once again gain traction. There are limits, of course, but on my 1999 528 it has often made the difference between when I can get up my driveway and when my neighbor cannot.

I had the opposite experience. My parents have a steep driveway that gets covered with snow. DSC actually worked against me by cutting power thus impeding my forward momentum. Disabling DSC allowed me to power through the trouble spot.

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

I have read a lot of times that the DSC kicks in - what happens when it kicks in? How does it reduce the driving feel, comfort of the car? Pardon me , but this is my first bimmer.. need help to understand. Thanks!

IMO the difference between the two comes down to the sport suspension. You can get it with the RWD but not with the AWD. Outside of that one thing the other items listed are essentially non-issues.

RWD is lighter, cheaper, more fuel economical, puts down more power to the wheels, improves steering feel, is easier/less to maintain or break, and has sportier suspension options from the factory.

On paper, RWD with snow tires for winter time is the better pick. Also tends to enable more fun swinging the tail out and such.

On paper.

I just traded in one nicely powered 5mt AWD sedan and that car was more enjoyable to drive in the winter on all-seasons in 98% of days when the roads are dry. This is in PA, where "winter" means lots of rain, 50 degree days, and good stretches without snow on the roads.

The most capable car will be one with good snow tires AND AWD. Collisions happen when the laws of physics result in an uncontrolled car. With snow, cars get closer to their limits. A few exceed them and crash.

You never know what will happen with you. Some people decide against AWD and snow tires because of wanting to save money, lack of knowledge, etc. It is not foolhardy to not buy X-drive but buying it will result in better winter capability. True, there are not blizzards every winter in Delaware but they do happen.

As far as changing to snow tires, I recommend mounting them on separate wheels (so you'll have 8 tires and 8 wheels). Then it's like changing a flat tire, just put them on, no balancing needed every year. It also saves wear and tear on the tires. To make things easy, you might get a jack that you pump ($20 on sale in auto parts stores) and even a breaker bar (long socket wrench). If you want to get even fancier, get some disposable gloves, wheel hanger (Bavarian Auto and ebay have them), torque wrench, and piece of wood for the jack.

Here's the thing- is the extra cost of the AWD worth it to you? If you are wanting sport suspension, you need the DHP with the xDrive in order to achieve that since xDrives don't come with sport suspension. If you want your xDrive to have similar suspension capability and feel to a RWD Sport Line or M Sport, you need to spend an additional $3000, since the RWD sport and M sport models have sport suspension without needing the DHP option. For a 60 month car loan, that's an extra $50 a month for the xDrive.
OR, if you don't care about sport suspension, it's only $2000 more than RWD.

The reason why I mention this is because it's an important factor to consider. Realistically, how many days out of the year is AWD absolutely necessary for dealing with snow? Are you buying xDrive just for those days? Or do you want xDrive for the all-around ability in all conditions just for peace of mind?

Here's my take on it- we have 3 or 4 days per year where it is REALLY bad with snow. I live in a metropolitan area in Minnesota with good road clearing efforts and very few hills. In the past 5 years, there has only been 1 day where I could not drive my RWD Ford outside, due simply to the 36" of snow that came down. So to me, I sort of realized that I was looking at xDrive simply for 4 days it was needed. So, should I buy a car for 4 days a year, or should I buy a car for 361 days a year and make do with the other 4 using snow tires?
Money is an issue for me, so to me it is a $3000 decision that bears consideration. To others, maybe not so much.

Originally Posted by rgk330i

I live in northern VA, in a climate basically the same as yours. I've been driving my 2001 330i (rwd) with Dunlop Winter Sport M2 tires with absolutely no problem, in fact I think they're overkill around here. While they're noisy, these tires handle surprisingly well. When the F30 arrives, I think I'll just use all-season M+S tires for the winter instead of true winter tires.

Personally I think awd is seriously overrated, but them again I drove a 68 Mustang in Buffalo for years so maybe I'm a little more used to snow than some.

Sent from my GT-P7510 using Bimmer App

The Dunlop M2 isn't a real snow tire - I had those on my 330i for several years, they are no better in snow than the best all season tire, plus I ran them all year around for two years trying to burn them up so I could buy better snows, and they hung around.

I'd probably ditch snow tires in VA too, it hardly snows in Boston anymore, I imagine DC area has even less.

To the OP, absolutely get RWD, AWD is just a waste if you don't live up north.

Originally Posted by BMW220i

The most capable car will be one with good snow tires AND AWD. Collisions happen when the laws of physics result in an uncontrolled car. With snow, cars get closer to their limits. A few exceed them and crash.

You never know what will happen with you. Some people decide against AWD and snow tires because of wanting to save money, lack of knowledge, etc.

I'd be willing to bet money that there are more accidents from overconfident AWD owners on all seasons, than RWD owners on snow tires who crash cause they didn't have AWD.

Our WRX was very much that kind of car - the crazy good acceleration on snow deceived you into thinking the car would be good when turning (w/out throttle) and stopping.

Originally Posted by Chris90

I'd be willing to bet money that there are more accidents from overconfident AWD owners on all seasons, than RWD owners on snow tires who crash

I'll take you up on this bet. Let's see your data.

Well, we've reached the re-hash of old threads. I'm out.

Originally Posted by Chris90

I'd be willing to bet money that there are more accidents from overconfident AWD owners on all seasons, than RWD owners on snow tires who crash cause they didn't have AWD.

.

I'd be willing to bet that there are fewer accidents from smart AWD drivers with snow tires. I can see why some people do not want AWD all year so they don't buy it. However, the safest situation is reduce driving during bad weather (or even cold weather where there's a little snow) and to have AWD and good snow tires. If you only have RWD with good snow tires, you are not driving a death trap, though.

Originally Posted by Reedo302

Here's the thing- is the extra cost of the AWD worth it to you? If you are wanting sport suspension, you need the DHP with the xDrive in order to achieve that since xDrives don't come with sport suspension. If you want your xDrive to have similar suspension capability and feel to a RWD Sport Line or M Sport, you need to spend an additional $3000, since the RWD sport and M sport models have sport suspension without needing the DHP option. For a 60 month car loan, that's an extra $50 a month for the xDrive.
OR, if you don't care about sport suspension, it's only $2000 more than RWD.

The reason why I mention this is because it's an important factor to consider. Realistically, how many days out of the year is AWD absolutely necessary for dealing with snow? Are you buying xDrive just for those days? Or do you want xDrive for the all-around ability in all conditions just for peace of mind?

Here's my take on it- we have 3 or 4 days per year where it is REALLY bad with snow. I live in a metropolitan area in Minnesota with good road clearing efforts and very few hills. In the past 5 years, there has only been 1 day where I could not drive my RWD Ford outside, due simply to the 36" of snow that came down. So to me, I sort of realized that I was looking at xDrive simply for 4 days it was needed. So, should I buy a car for 4 days a year, or should I buy a car for 361 days a year and make do with the other 4 using snow tires?
Money is an issue for me, so to me it is a $3000 decision that bears consideration. To others, maybe not so much.

I already have the DHP.. Right now I don't mind the extra 2k when I am already putting down 50k for the car..
Just trying to make up my mind if I need xdrive or not. .. This thread is going very good. .. I do a lot of fun driving to other places. .. and i am going to be keeping the car for long. ... so all the input is very important.

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

I already have the DHP.. Right now I don't mind the extra 2k when I am already putting down 50k for the car..
Just trying to make up my mind if I need xdrive or not. .. This thread is going very good. .. I do a lot of fun driving to other places. .. and i am going to be keeping the car for long. ... so all the input is very important.

My general rule of thumb is this: For people living within inclement weather areas AWD unless there's a specific reason not to. For people living outside inclement weather areas RWD unless there's a specific reason not to. Since I don't know the weather in Delaware it's hard for me to say one way or the other. From what has been described it sounds as if Delaware doesn't get a lot of snow so that would tip my recommendation towards the RWD car.

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

I have read a lot of times that the DSC kicks in - what happens when it kicks in? How does it reduce the driving feel, comfort of the car? Pardon me , but this is my first bimmer.. need help to understand. Thanks!

I went with a RWD M Sport for several reasons that have have been previously mentioned (lower ride height, sport suspension, better fuel economy, better weight distribution, less costly by $2K) and two other reasons not mentioned in this thread, better steering feel and tighter turning circle.

Since my car has the factory installed M Sport brakes ($350 option in Canada), I was very limited in the choice of 18" winter wheels that would fit over the larger callipers and rotors. So, I went with Modern line alloys + Pireill 240 Sottozero II snow tires (recommended both by BMWNA and BMW Canada for the F30).

My car handles very well with these tires, both in dry and wet conditions, and it handles incredibly well in snow and on ice. If you have the right tires, IMO, you don't need Xdrive unless you live in a snow belt area with lots of steep hills. I have driven RWD BMWs for almost 30 years and I have never been stuck in snow.

When the DSC kicks in, it momentarily reduces power to the rear wheels; it does not reduce driving comfort or feel. For driving in deep snow, I would turn off the DSC and drive in Comfort mode.

Originally Posted by BMW220i

I'd be willing to bet that there are fewer accidents from smart AWD drivers with snow tires. I can see why some people do not want AWD all year so they don't buy it. However, the safest situation is reduce driving during bad weather (or even cold weather where there's a little snow) and to have AWD and good snow tires. If you only have RWD with good snow tires, you are not driving a death trap, though.

If you're on AWD and you still bought snow tires, you're smart by definition.

I was talking about AWD cars with all seasons.

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

Hey guys,

Hate to have to create my own thread for the age-old question since x-Drive was launched.. but have read almost all threads here and f30post, but not getting a clear answer to questions on my mind.. So, please bear with me...

So, I have ordered a 335i M-Sport xDrive sedan.. and even now, I am having second thoughts about xDrive... My order hasn't started being built yet..

I live in Delaware.. doesn't snow much.. 3 yrs back, we had crazy snow.. don't remember about 2011-12 - I think it snowed moderately, but this last year, we had little snow.. I drive an Altima 2.5S right now, and had no problem at all this year.. but being the over-cautious customer, went with the xDrive per conventional wisdom- that says that since I tend to drive faster and more sportier than most drivers, xDrive will do it's part and make me 'safer'. Actually this was what my sister and mom said..

1. Assuming that I will get a dedicated set of snow tires anyway, should I go for xDrive or not? You can base your inputs on your experience and criteria like MPG, maintenance/service issues (please give examples), handling problems, etc..
   
2. People in surrounding areas, do you have xDrive and don't use snow tires? How do you fare?
   
3. Have you ever wished you had xDrive when you actually were driving RWD with snow tires? Have you had situations where you stopped but couldn't go? - not for hilly roads.. just snow/slush, etc
   
4. What kind of equipment will I need to own to change the wheels (not only tires - I have heard you need to balance the wheels if changing only tires and dealers charge fees for that) for changing into/out of snow tires? I am completely new to DIY on cars.. was cool on old-styled cars when they didn't have computers on cars (think 80's)... but not now..

I know there is this advantage of getting Sports suspension with RWD and lowered ride height... its tempted me before, but I was inclined on the safety aspect - and this was before I had read about the importance of snow tires.. Now, that I know that its up to good snow tires to take care of the braking, turning and handling in snow, and xDrive takes care of starting from a complete stop and uphill/downhill motions, I am wondering if I need xDrive or not...

Just if you may want to know, I don't live in a hilly area, very flat surfaces... this will be my only car. I am not interested in tracking my car or doing 0-60 sprints.. but knowing my nature and driving habits (which is obvious as me going for 335i with DHP.. ), I want to make an informed decision rather than by just going by my gut feeling.. and I want to be as safe as can be without going overboard with counter measures..

Oh, and this is my first bimmer - I have no idea when I read that when buying a bimmer, buy an RWD.. nice, but someone please care to explain? Meanwhile I am going to be searching nearby dealers for xDrive and non-xDrive models of a 335i...

I'm pretty verbose.. oh, well!

TIA!

Fellow Delawarian here...so here's my thoughts.

1. Assuming you are getting dedicated snow wheels/tires, go RWD. As you said, it doesn't snow much here and a few years ago when it snowed like crazy, DE was under a snow emergency and you weren't supposed to drive anyway. My car sat in the garage and I worked from home. I can't necessarily give you any comparisons because I've never owned an AWD drive vehicle for many of the reasons others have mentioned...weight, gas, etc.

2. Don't have Xdrive and don't have snow tires....plus tires are high perf summer's. I will get into my specific situation below.

3. Never wished for AWD nor even considered when buying my 335. Ok, I thought about for about 5 seconds and . I did take the 335 out one day after I first got and there was snow/ice in my neighborhood...didn't go very well, but made it up our small incline out of the neighborhood as there were some dry/packed snow (no ice) areas. Slush should be fine. Again, I have the HP summer tires. They SUCK in snow/ice and that should be obvious.

4. As far as equipment, I would recommend a separate set of snow wheels/tires and not use your existing rims with snow tires. That would entail expensive, yearly trips to the tire shop. If you have dedicated snow wheels/tires, you may just have to get balanced every once and awhile. Putting on/off is about a 30 minute job in your driveway, assuming you have jack, jack stands, torque wrench. Happy to help/discuss this with you anytime.

Ok, so to get back to my specific situation, I also have a front drive commuter car that I use if it snows...again, which is not much. I've thought about selling and just getting a set of snow wheels/tires, but the better half likes having a third car.

Now before everyone jumps all over me because I have a commuter car (I understand why), my former colleague that I carpooled with for about 3 years had both a 330i RWD and 750i RWD that was used year round, including in the winter with dedicated snow wheels/tires. I drove the car multiple times and found no issues with the drive other than the tires being noisy, but that will happen with cold, RFT snow tires. Also, as you mentioned, it really doesn't snow that much, and the route we marched usually got more snow than in DE. My point, never ran into issues with snow/slush.

As for the DSC, I agree with someone else that said if you do encounter an elevation, it is probably better to turn it off completely in the snow. The electronics will kick in way too much and actually hinder your ability to move through snow/ice/slush, in my experience with other vehicles I've owned with a DSC type system.

Bottom line, I'd go with the RWD and dedicated snow wheels/tires if it were me. Good luck and jealous of you doing ED...I should have done that.

Originally Posted by chrisk03

Fellow Delawarian here...so here's my thoughts.

1. Assuming you are getting dedicated snow wheels/tires, go RWD. As you said, it doesn't snow much here and a few years ago when it snowed like crazy, DE was under a snow emergency and you weren't supposed to drive anyway. My car sat in the garage and I worked from home. I can't necessarily give you any comparisons because I've never owned an AWD drive vehicle for many of the reasons others have mentioned...weight, gas, etc.

2. Don't have Xdrive and don't have snow tires....plus tires are high perf summer's. I will get into my specific situation below.

3. Never wished for AWD nor even considered when buying my 335. Ok, I thought about for about 5 seconds and . I did take the 335 out one day after I first got and there was snow/ice in my neighborhood...didn't go very well, but made it up our small incline out of the neighborhood as there were some dry/packed snow (no ice) areas. Slush should be fine. Again, I have the HP summer tires. They SUCK in snow/ice and that should be obvious.

4. As far as equipment, I would recommend a separate set of snow wheels/tires and not use your existing rims with snow tires. That would entail expensive, yearly trips to the tire shop. If you have dedicated snow wheels/tires, you may just have to get balanced every once and awhile. Putting on/off is about a 30 minute job in your driveway, assuming you have jack, jack stands, torque wrench. Happy to help/discuss this with you anytime.

Ok, so to get back to my specific situation, I also have a front drive commuter car that I use if it snows...again, which is not much. I've thought about selling and just getting a set of snow wheels/tires, but the better half likes having a third car.

Now before everyone jumps all over me because I have a commuter car (I understand why), my former colleague that I carpooled with for about 3 years had both a 330i RWD and 750i RWD that was used year round, including in the winter with dedicated snow wheels/tires. I drove the car multiple times and found no issues with the drive other than the tires being noisy, but that will happen with cold, RFT snow tires. Also, as you mentioned, it really doesn't snow that much, and the route we marched (to Princeton) usually got more snow than in DE. My point, never ran into issues with snow/slush. The 330 was a 6 speed and the 750 was an auto...fyi.

As for the DSC, I agree with someone else that said if you do encounter an elevation, it is probably better to turn it off completely in the snow. The electronics will kick in way too much and actually hinder your ability to move through snow/ice/slush, in my experience with other vehicles I've owned with a DSC type system.

Bottom line, I'd go with the RWD and dedicated snow wheels/tires if it were me. Good luck and jealous of you doing ED...I should have done that.

Thanks buddy!

Thanks everyone, for responding here and bringing out the pros and cons of rwd vs xDrive, esp. with reference to the weather in and around Delaware, and adding your personal experiences as well. Helped me rethink my decision - I am going to ask my CA to change my order to RWD, he said my car is going into production in a few days... so he will ask BMW ED about it.. I hope everything goes well...

I have few questions about the tires, I don't want to hijack this thread for that, so I will create a new thread.

Thanks again!

Rohit

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

I already have the DHP.. Right now I don't mind the extra 2k when I am already putting down 50k for the car..
Just trying to make up my mind if I need xdrive or not. .. This thread is going very good. .. I do a lot of fun driving to other places. .. and i am going to be keeping the car for long. ... so all the input is very important.

If that is the case, then the question becomes what are you personally looking for in the vehicle? Do you only drive in Delaware? Do you get up north in the winter, drive the PA mountains? Do you like spirited driving? Do you enjoy cornering hard on the winding roads? If $2K is not a problem, 2-4% less MPG is no big deal and you do not push the limits of the car, if you want the traction for those half dozen or so snowy days a year and a couple winter weekend drive/s to the Poconos Mountains, then the xDrive is fabulous!

You can read all day long about the advantages of winter tires on RWD and the winter tires are good but IMHO they do not replace AWD (everyone seems to have an opinion on this). Soooooo now ask yourself...do I want the more spirited car for the 9 months with a few rough days over the other 3 months, or do I want the car that can track through with the best of 4-wheelers for three months a year but give up some handling characteristics that the car is capable of.

Again, I bought the AWD because I drive through at least 2 dozen days a year with snow, Had trace snows two mornings this week and 2-3 more inches tomarrow, I drive 75 miles per day with additional drives in northern Michigan. I do not drive hard, therefore AWD makes sense.

Good point, if I was into skiing I'd get AWD. Or better yet, put the $2k toward an LSD.

Short answer is you will be more than fine in Delaware with RWD and snow tires. With snows you will have better traction than all those fwd cars with all seasons that are already getting by just fine.

In the situations where snow gets too tough for your car, like the snow storms of 2010, you wouldn't want to be out and about in an xDrive either.

Originally Posted by impreza276

Short answer is you will be more than fine in Delaware with RWD and snow tires. With snows you will have better traction than all those fwd cars with all seasons that are already getting by just fine.

The reference isn't FWD cars. The reference is AWD cars.

Funny, you don't recall a thing during the week, but come weekend, all the fun stuff starts coming by themselves...
I recall doing a little fishtailing in a 2013 Camaro of a friend, off from a start... actually I was merging into light traffic coming out of a shopping complex... didn't expect that at all... but when it came, it felt like I was playing NFSMW, and I got the car straightened... (I don't consider myself a highly skilled driver - but I could maneuver a fwd with near bald tires in the 2010 snowstorms.. so I'm good)
My friends, both the owner and a co-passenger, freaked out like anything, but the effect was for such a less time, I don't remember if I liked it or not...
Now, I can add that I am just that kind of driver, who likes to - sometimes - pedal the metal...like they say... - I want to feel the torque push me into my seats... that fast 0-whatever speed pickup...that excites me about my car... i know I am going to do that with my bimmer...

So, does xDrive help with anything like that? When I took test-drives, I think I was behaving from a good boy to a li'l naughty boy... not an out-'n-out bad boy... I had my sister with me, so I was more concerned about her safety... so, I haven't driven any bimmer like the way I drove the camaro the other day..

your thoughts?

Originally Posted by Crzy'boutBimmer

Funny, you don't recall a thing during the week, but come weekend, all the fun stuff starts coming by themselves...
I recall doing a little fishtailing in a 2013 Camaro of a friend, off from a start... actually I was merging into light traffic coming out of a shopping complex... didn't expect that at all... but when it came, it felt like I was playing NFSMW, and I got the car straightened... (I don't consider myself a highly skilled driver - but I could maneuver a fwd with near bald tires in the 2010 snowstorms.. so I'm good)
My friends, both the owner and a co-passenger, freaked out like anything, but the effect was for such a less time, I don't remember if I liked it or not...
Now, I can add that I am just that kind of driver, who likes to - sometimes - pedal the metal...like they say... - I want to feel the torque push me into my seats... that fast 0-whatever speed pickup...that excites me about my car... i know I am going to do that with my bimmer...

So, does xDrive help with anything like that? When I took test-drives, I think I was behaving from a good boy to a li'l naughty boy... not an out-'n-out bad boy... I had my sister with me, so I was more concerned about her safety... so, I haven't driven any bimmer like the way I drove the camaro the other day..

your thoughts?

If you're looking to regularly kick the rear end out then you definitely want RWD. If you like hard accelleration then AWD is probably your better bet. AWD cars have slightly better 0-60 times than the RWD as there is more grip to get the car going. However given most people's driving skill it's unlikely you'll be able to tell the difference. Where AWD might help with your accelleration is coming out of corners. Given more driving wheels you should be able to pull out of the corner harder without worry of oversteer or the DSC kicking in. While a highly skilled driver can make the RWD car move through the corners faster the vast majority do not possess the necessary skill to do so.

IMO, for the vast majority of drivers, the RWD and AWD cars give the same feel if you don't opt for the sport suspension (not sure if you're aware of not but the AWD car has a rear bias in its power delivery thus making it feel like a RWD car). Thus all the negatives for the AWD (higher weight, higher power train losses, weight distribution, etc) are inconsequential for all but the most experienced drivers.

In the end you can't go wrong with either car. I used to own a RWD BMW and now I buy AWD given I live in an inclement weather area. While the Denver metro area doesn't see large amounts of snow for long periods of time it's nice to have when it does. Or when I make a trip to the mountains. While RWD seems to be fine for your needs it sounds as if you're still leaning towards the AWD model. If that's the case I say go for it...you will not be disappointed.