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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:46 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Location: Greensboro, NC
 
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Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Rough idle on start up on 2004 545i (only when under 40*F)

So--the cold weather is starting to sit in around here and a rough idle issue seems to get worse the colder it gets. Seeing as how we're under 20*F tonight, I have a feeling tomorrow will be the worst.

Anyways, on to the issue:

Basically when I start the car cold (only happens when engine is cold and outside temperature is under somewhere around 35-40*F) it idles pretty rough, RPM's jumping around some at first. It's never cut off from this, but the fluttering is a little embarrassing when any one is in the car with me. It set off the check engine light to day, and the codes basically said cylinder misfire detected and it had a code for every cylinder, so I would think that rules out the coils. After I start driving, it seems to stumble a little bit under the first acceleration of the day, but after I accelerate once I've never noticed it again.

I've had it set off the check engine light once before a month or two ago but it hasn't been cold enough since then to have any issues.

I have found a few service bulletins on similar type issues.. one being this one: SIB 11 02 05

I cleaned the MAF a few months ago with no change.

Any other ideas? That bulletin does not apply to my build date (December 2003). It's so strange that if it's 40*F outside it runs fine, 35*F and it stumbles and jumps all over the place at first. Only seems to happen first start of the day but it also only sits a few hours at a time so I doubt it cools down all the way.

I'll try to find all the codes again in a minute to post them all up for all to see. I have 185K miles at this point, so I'm just glad it still goes :lol:

Any ideas??

Last edited by schpenxel; 01-22-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2013, 05:59 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Mein Auto: 2004 545i
Here are all the codes except an e-box fan that I didn't bother putting on.

Code:
274E CDKMD - Misfire detection, Checksum failure
P0300 Verbrennungsaussetzer erkannt - mehrere Zylinder
Error counter: 3
Logistic counter: 39

1. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296200 km
Engine speed (nmot) 760.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 33.00 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 18.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 19.00 l

2. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296424 km
Engine speed (nmot) 880.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 22.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 15.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 52.00 l

3. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296672 km
Engine speed (nmot) 1120.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 25.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 21.00 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 25.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not present now, but already stored
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error in debounce phase
Error code: 27 4E A8 21 03 00 03 27 90 A1 13 2C 59 13 90 BD
16 1E 55 34 90 DC 1C 22 5C 19
-------------------------------------------------------------


2743 CDKMD01 - misfire detection cyl. 5
Error counter: 1
Logistic counter: 27
Mileage 296200 km
Engine speed (nmot) 760.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 33.00 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 18.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 19.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not occurred yet
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error code: 27 43 88 01 00 00 01 1B 90 A1 13 2C 59 13 FF FF
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
-------------------------------------------------------------


2747 CDKMD05 - misfire detection cyl. 3
Error counter: 2
Logistic counter: 37

1. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296200 km
Engine speed (nmot) 760.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 33.00 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 18.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 19.00 l

2. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296672 km
Engine speed (nmot) 1120.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 25.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 21.00 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 25.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not occurred yet
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error code: 27 47 88 01 00 00 02 25 90 A1 13 2C 59 13 90 DC
1C 22 5C 19 FF FF FF FF FF FF
-------------------------------------------------------------


2748 CDKMD06 - misfire detection cyl. 7
P0307 Verbrennungsaussetzer erkannt - Zylinder 7
Error counter: 3
Logistic counter: 39

1. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296200 km
Engine speed (nmot) 760.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 33.00 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 18.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 19.00 l

2. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296424 km
Engine speed (nmot) 880.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 22.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 15.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 52.00 l

3. Umweltsatz
Mileage 296672 km
Engine speed (nmot) 1120.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 25.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 21.00 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 25.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not present now, but already stored
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error in debounce phase
Error code: 27 48 A8 21 03 07 03 27 90 A1 13 2C 59 13 90 BD
16 1E 55 34 90 DC 1C 22 5C 19
-------------------------------------------------------------


2744 CDKMD02 - misfire detection cyl. 4
Error counter: 1
Logistic counter: 31
Mileage 296424 km
Engine speed (nmot) 880.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 22.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 15.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 52.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not occurred yet
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error code: 27 44 88 01 00 00 01 1F 90 BD 16 1E 55 34 FF FF
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
-------------------------------------------------------------


2746 CDKMD04 - misfire detection cyl. 6
Error counter: 1
Logistic counter: 31
Mileage 296424 km
Engine speed (nmot) 880.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 22.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 15.75 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 52.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not occurred yet
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error code: 27 46 88 01 00 00 01 1F 90 BD 16 1E 55 34 FF FF
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
-------------------------------------------------------------


2742 CDKMD00 - misfire detection cyl. 1
Error counter: 1
Logistic counter: 37
Mileage 296672 km
Engine speed (nmot) 1120.00 /min
Relative air filling (rl) 25.50 %
Engine temperature (tmot) 21.00 degrees C
Tank fill level (tfst) 25.00 l

Implausible signal or value
Test conditions fulfilled
Error not occurred yet
Error would cause a warning lamp to light up
Diagnostic active
Error code: 27 42 88 01 00 00 01 25 90 DC 1C 22 5C 19 FF FF
FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF
=============================================================
Also, forgot to mention that I replaced the CCV valves a few weeks ago and zip tied all of the connections so they are as good as they were to begin with. Regardless, the problem was present prior to changing those out. I noticed no change afterwards.

Last edited by schpenxel; 01-22-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-23-2013, 04:49 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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And what do ya know.. today was the coldest day of the year and it didn't give any problems at all. No rough idle at all.

Weird.
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  #4  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:05 PM
Davegsu Davegsu is offline
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Mein Auto: 645 ci
I'm having the exact same issue with my '05 645ci. Does anyone know if we share a similar engine?
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  #5  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:07 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Yes, we do

One thing I've noticed on mine is that it seems to be worse when it's just above freezing. I wonder if some sort of condensation is forming somewhere and causing some sort of issue? It's still so odd to me that I can start the car in sub 20*F weather and it has no problems whatsoever, but start it on a morning when it's 35*F and it runs like crap for a mile or two

(N62 engine)

Last edited by schpenxel; 03-04-2013 at 07:09 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:28 PM
Davegsu Davegsu is offline
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Yep, that's the same engine alright. It only happens between 35-45'
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  #7  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:30 PM
Davegsu Davegsu is offline
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What did you eventually do to solve the problem? It threw up a SES and increased emissions error for me.
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  #8  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:42 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Location: Greensboro, NC
 
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I haven't figured it out. I've found that if I don't let it sit and idle and just start driving as quick as I can, it doesn't throw the increased emissions error or SES light, so that's what I've been doing. Once I get out of the parking lot and accelerate once or twice, it does fine the rest of the day (even on days where it sits for 12 more hours and it's in that "trouble" temperature range, it still starts fine the second time of the day. Weird.)

Last edited by schpenxel; 03-04-2013 at 07:43 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:49 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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In another thread they mentioned the CCV system, which I have replaced already. May be an option for you?

I believe it's either related to a vacuum leak that is more evident when the car is cold due to the valvetronic system behaving more like a "normal" system and using the throttle body for the first 90 seconds of running

or

intermediate shaft geometry on valvetronic system issues. There was an SIB for this. Not cheap to replace at all but the symptoms fit pretty much exactly

or

some sort of electrical / coil / plug issue where condensation is causing intermittent contact which is causing a misfire either due to lack of spark or fuel. I'm leaning away from this one since it happens in all cylinders for me.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-2013, 08:57 AM
pjinca pjinca is online now
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Could it maybe be as simple as condensation in the fuel tank? Perhaps replacing the fuel filter in the tank and/or some Stabil to reduce moisture in the fuel would help?
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2005 530i - Prem, Sport, NAV
2006 Jeep SRT-8
2003 Infiniti G35 coupe
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  #11  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:14 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjinca View Post
Could it maybe be as simple as condensation in the fuel tank? Perhaps replacing the fuel filter in the tank and/or some Stabil to reduce moisture in the fuel would help?
Fuel filter is something I should try. At 188K miles, I'm not sure if it's ever been changed to be honest

I've ran a couple bottles of Techron through. I didn't notice any real change
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  #12  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:17 AM
pjinca pjinca is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Fuel filter is something I should try. At 188K miles, I'm not sure if it's ever been changed to be honest

I've ran a couple bottles of Techron through. I didn't notice any real change
I know of several E60 drivers (V8 and I6) who changed their fuel filters before 100k miles and they were disgusting (the filters not the owners ). It is worth a shot.
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[B]2008 550 - Carbon Black/Black - M-sport, Cold Weather, Premium, NAV, Comfort Access, Logic 7 (LOADED, every option except night vision)

Previous 3 cars (the 550 is my 38th car):
2005 530i - Prem, Sport, NAV
2006 Jeep SRT-8
2003 Infiniti G35 coupe
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  #13  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:32 AM
pjinca pjinca is online now
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Here is a DIY and it shows how bad the Fuel Filter was after 125k miles - http://forums.5series.net/diy-do-you...t-swap-121415/
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[B]2008 550 - Carbon Black/Black - M-sport, Cold Weather, Premium, NAV, Comfort Access, Logic 7 (LOADED, every option except night vision)

Previous 3 cars (the 550 is my 38th car):
2005 530i - Prem, Sport, NAV
2006 Jeep SRT-8
2003 Infiniti G35 coupe
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  #14  
Old 03-05-2013, 09:47 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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awesome, thanks!
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:56 AM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Holy crap those things are dirty!!!

I'm definitely going to change mine out soon. I'm sure it needs it regardless
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:57 AM
pjinca pjinca is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Holy crap those things are dirty!!!

I'm definitely going to change mine out soon. I'm sure it needs it regardless
LOL, yeah, they get pretty nasty and it's in an area most people would never think to change it.
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[B]2008 550 - Carbon Black/Black - M-sport, Cold Weather, Premium, NAV, Comfort Access, Logic 7 (LOADED, every option except night vision)

Previous 3 cars (the 550 is my 38th car):
2005 530i - Prem, Sport, NAV
2006 Jeep SRT-8
2003 Infiniti G35 coupe
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  #17  
Old 03-05-2013, 01:01 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Potentially dumb question:

RealOEM has a left and right fuel level sensor / filter. Do I need both or just one?

16146765820 - http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...53&hg=16&fg=15
16146765826 - http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...54&hg=16&fg=15

edit: NEVERMIND, I see only the second one (16146765826) has an actual filter listed in the part number, so I assume this is the only one I need. If this is incorrect someone please feel free to let me know!

Last edited by schpenxel; 03-05-2013 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:15 PM
pjinca pjinca is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
Potentially dumb question:

RealOEM has a left and right fuel level sensor / filter. Do I need both or just one?

16146765820 - http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...53&hg=16&fg=15
16146765826 - http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...54&hg=16&fg=15

edit: NEVERMIND, I see only the second one (16146765826) has an actual filter listed in the part number, so I assume this is the only one I need. If this is incorrect someone please feel free to let me know!
Good question, I am not sure, maybe better to replace both? Also, there is a carbon filter for the gas tank that apparently gets dirty and needs attention when you live in an area with extreme weather changes (luckily we don't really have seasons, per se, in SoCal):
http://forums.5series.net/e60-m5-dis...-128133/page9/
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[B]2008 550 - Carbon Black/Black - M-sport, Cold Weather, Premium, NAV, Comfort Access, Logic 7 (LOADED, every option except night vision)

Previous 3 cars (the 550 is my 38th car):
2005 530i - Prem, Sport, NAV
2006 Jeep SRT-8
2003 Infiniti G35 coupe
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  #19  
Old 03-05-2013, 01:54 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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I think one is just a level sensor, then the other has the actual filter

I'll have to do some reading on charcoal
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  #20  
Old 03-05-2013, 02:45 PM
bmwoem1 bmwoem1 is offline
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Sounds like worn intermediate levers to me... But with the high mileage, I would do that filter first
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  #21  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:41 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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I looked up changing the intermediate levers earlier in ISTA/D.. That one looks like a fun one, lol. How hard is it to actually do and what kind of special tools are actually needed? I know BMW would label a crow bar a "special tool" with a $500 price tag if they could get away with it (hell, they probably DO do that)

I think that's probably what it is too though.

Any thoughts on why it only does it in colder weather? It's starting to warm up here and was over 40*F this morning and it ran pretty good. Still not perfect, but I think once it gets up to 50*F it will smooth out

Last edited by schpenxel; 03-05-2013 at 04:43 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:48 PM
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Hogie Hogie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
I looked up changing the intermediate levers earlier in ISTA/D.. That one looks like a fun one, lol. How hard is it to actually do and what kind of special tools are actually needed? I know BMW would label a crow bar a "special tool" with a $500 price tag if they could get away with it (hell, they probably DO do that)

I think that's probably what it is too though.

Any thoughts on why it only does it in colder weather? It's starting to warm up here and was over 40*F this morning and it ran pretty good. Still not perfect, but I think once it gets up to 50*F it will smooth out
When I purchased my CPO 04 545i I had two issues resolved by DME updated SW by the dealer.
1. Car would jerk at slow speeds, like in a parking lot. Felt like having a manual in 1st gear and pushing the gas pedal.

2. Rough start and idle for first minute or so, car would chug at times.

The dealer did inspect the levers as I was very close to the affected build date but they found no issue there. They opened a PUMA case then updated DME SW. The two issues never returned after that.

Last edited by Hogie; 03-05-2013 at 05:01 PM.
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  #23  
Old 03-05-2013, 04:53 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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May be worth trying that as well since I need to update the transmission computer anyways. I'm not sure what version I'm on. I thought I was at V36 but not so sure any more after doing some more looking around in INPA

Thanks!
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:03 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Also, looks like it's about $700 just for the intermediate levers if I replace them all. Lovely.
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  #25  
Old 03-05-2013, 05:56 PM
schpenxel schpenxel is offline
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Found this very long thread that deals extensively with this issue

http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...ssue-06-a.html
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