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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:08 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Mein Auto: panamera 4s, x5 35d
Just bought X5 35d and have a few questinos

Have lurked on this and other boards for the last month researching diesel SUVs. Considered GL 350, Toureg, X5. Ended up buying a 2010 CPO with 34k miles from a dealer but it was just in off lease so when they went to get a new state inspection and tags, they got SES codes and are now trying to get them to "reset". Have read a lot about people getting SES/CEL problems and am starting to get nervous that I now own a lemon...
Have had 2 prior BMWs with few problems and great satisfaction. Hope I can take delivery tomorrow (bought car last Sat) and that things will work out. Will put some pics up when I can.
Looking forward to learning more about this fine SUV.

'10 X5 35d, black/black, Premium, cold weather, pano roof, tow hitch

Last edited by tmepguy; 03-04-2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: revise options
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  #2  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:31 PM
ard ard is online now
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Bummer.

Wonder if the dealer was truthful... Funny how it just happened after they got you t take it home!

I lemoned my 2010 ....

What codes are they getting?

GL

A
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  #3  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:36 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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I never took it home. I live 80 mi from dealer. They were to deliver it Sunday...
Dont know the actual codes.
Had 20 min on the phone with polite svc mgr who said it had 4 codes that needed the car to be driven in "optimum conditions" for them to reset/clear out so that it could pass emissions inspection. So they are driving it for a half hour tomorrow morning with the expectation that the codes will clear. He says nothing wrong (they are not fault codes).
He sounded truthful/trustworthy but I'm becoming a bit skeptical.
Suppose I can refuse delivery if this drags out (only put $500 down on an amex which can be cancelled... but I sure do like the car and got a great deal. It is a certified preowned so has 100k coverage. (of course I didn't read the CPO fine print).
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  #4  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:43 PM
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ndabunka ndabunka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmepguy View Post
I never took it home. I live 80 mi from dealer. They were to deliver it Sunday...
Dont know the actual codes.
Had 20 min on the phone with polite svc mgr who said it had 4 codes that needed the car to be driven in "optimum conditions" for them to reset/clear out so that it could pass emissions inspection. So they are driving it for a half hour tomorrow morning with the expectation that the codes will clear. He says nothing wrong (they are not fault codes).
He sounded truthful/trustworthy but I'm becoming a bit skeptical.
Suppose I can refuse delivery if this drags out (only put $500 down on an amex which can be cancelled... but I sure do like the car and got a great deal. It is a certified preowned so has 100k coverage. (of course I didn't read the CPO fine print).
DEFINITELY REFUSE delivery unless... you are buying it DIRECTLY from an authorized BMW dealer. Many BMW "sellers" aren't actually BMW dealers. Many "claim" a CPO car (from a prior owner) but only authorized BMW dealers can retain the BMW CPO when they sell it to you. If you are buying from an authorized BMW dealership tell them that you need to "test drive it" for a WEEKEND before you will sign the final paperwork so that you can ensure that all the bugs are truly worked out
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  #5  
Old 03-05-2013, 06:49 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Thanks ndabunka -it is a BMW dealer and so far the SA has been very easy to work with and has called me daily with updates for the past 4 days. I assume they want to complete the sale and are keen on getting the codes cleared, inspection passed and getting it delivered to me.

I like your idea about a weekend "test drive" before signing. That way if the CEL comes on or other trouble happens, the deal is on hold. BTW they told me these "readiness codes" would not cause a CEL. They just are internal codes for emission inspection.

Finally it is a bit complicated in that I am buying in a town 80 miles away b/c local dealer had no used, no diesel. So if I have trouble, it will be the local dealer. I am assuming they wont care.
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  #6  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:54 PM
ard ard is online now
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You originally said SES codes. Readiness indicatirs arent codes... they are 'set' when the car has been used for enough time. (The idea was to prevent owners from clearing a CEL in the parking lot of the SMOG shop.) BMW seems to have challenges with this sometimes.

Did they say WHY they have them? My guess is there was a CEL code, they reset it, and now cant get readines indicators to reset.

Sometimes these things are easy, but there are horror stories...

It is nice to have a 100k warranty, but it is a PITA to bring a car back every month to chase down an issue.

If the nice CA is convinced this is a minor thing, ask him to put in writing that should a cel return in the first 3 months they will pay you purchase price and all fees. Money where his mouth is.

Really, to understand the issues, you want all the deataled work orders for all prior CELS...they'll never give you those- but that is how you figure out if this was an 'almost lemon'

But again, why DID they clear all the codes just to do the smo/saftey? IMO they didnt need to.

Proceed with care. And remember their job is to make you feel loved, valued and comfortable- no matter what the truth!

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  #7  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:12 AM
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"but I sure do like the car and got a great deal."

So there's the reason for the great deal. You know what they say, if it looks too good to be true, it usually...

Post the vin so that at least you know you didn't get Sir Ard's sour lemon! And I would definitely ask for that test drive recommend above but I highly doubt the dealer would do it. At the end of the day, if you still have any doubts, pull the plug before the plug gets to big to pull.
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  #8  
Old 03-06-2013, 04:30 AM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Thanks Sir Ard and 0428,

Good advice from all. I appreciate it. It is an odd situation to be in.

Agree that the SA's job is to make me feel happy. The truth might not be a priority in that situation. Common sense says I don't want a car where I have to have it at the dealer for a week every year when I go to get my inspection. Even if all the work is covered, I'm too busy to deal with that. So I agree - PIA should be avoided, even if it's a free PIA.

Agree with getting things in writing. They probably won't agree to do that and that will be evidence that the mouth is not connected to the financials.

I don't have the VIN or I would post it. Did not realize you could get any info in the public domain by searching VIN.

I will talk with the SA again today and press him for details. He seems pretty open. I'll continue posting whatever I learn.

I'm curious if this is an earlier build problem (the veh I'm "buying" is a '10) and this is less likely on newer ones or if this is a general problem with the clean diesel system on all of these X5s where they can't quite get it to satisfy Uncle Sam's demands with respect to pollution.

As they say, the government is your enemy... until you need a friend.
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  #9  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:35 PM
ard ard is online now
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http://www.xoutpost.com/bmw-sav-foru...5alj98900.html

Just for an idea what you can find by googling a vin.
I just posted my old tale of woe as an example. IMO there WERE issues with the diesel emissions system in 2010 that they gradually got there arms around, but it seemed like these issues were resolved/fixed with a series of recalls/reprogramming and TSBs.

GL

A
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  #10  
Old 03-07-2013, 02:16 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Since I had already agreed to purchase the car and they called me today and said that all the codes were cleared and it was all set I went ahead and did not try to "undo" the purchase. I suggested that I would like to have a weekend test drive as was suggested on this thread. They called me back and said they were not able to do that but threw in a $500 check (I think from BMWNA) for the inconvenience I have gone through. I had another 20 minutes on the phone with the service manager. He assured me he felt this was normal operation and there were absolutely no problems with the vehicle. The theory is that the vehicle was sitting for several days after being driven in a normal use pattern and then was test driven by several folks in various conditions and with various driving styles and that caused the pollution sensors to become "unhappy" (for lack of a better description). In the end, it just required driving in a more normal pattern for a few days back to back to make the sensors happy again.

Bottom line I think I got a reasonably good deal. I paid $38,900 minus the $500 as they are giving me back for a 2010 X5 with 34,000 miles certified preowned status. The vehicle is in like new condition. The options are not stellar but reasonable. I posted most of the options above. I will post some pictures when I take delivery probably tomorrow. I will search the VIN when I have it. if I learn anything else I will post it here. I will also post what my ownership experience is like and whether I have any trouble with the vehicle.

I appreciate the help I have received. There are clearly some very experienced and knowledgeable BMW owners on this board. I look forward to being part of the X5 owners club. I may even get motivated and post a cold start video of my Panamera 4S with the sport exhaust activated.... that seems to be a popular thing to do on this board!
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  #11  
Old 03-07-2013, 04:19 PM
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gresch gresch is offline
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Just out of curiosity, what dealer are you buying it from?
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2013, 06:00 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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"My dealer is Keeler".... I think that's the motto.
Do you have an opinion of them?
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  #13  
Old 03-07-2013, 07:10 PM
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gresch gresch is offline
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Nope, you're in upstate NY, I'm down by LI. Was just curious.
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  #14  
Old 03-07-2013, 08:55 PM
Snowytrail Snowytrail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmepguy View Post
Bottom line I think I got a reasonably good deal. I paid $38,900 minus the $500 as they are giving me back for a 2010 X5 with 34,000 miles certified preowned status. The vehicle is in like new condition. The options are not stellar but reasonable.
If I read the options you posted correctly, that X5 does not I have a NAV. I bet the dealer is really happy to be selling it.

When I ordered mine w/o a NAV the dealer seemed nervous that I might not take delivery and they would be stuck with what they implied would be unsellable. Did you price out what the X5 cost originally including the eco-credit?
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2013, 03:31 AM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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I have the orig sticker. $57,813. I agree, the options are unusual. Who would configure an X5 this way? Who doesn't want backup sensors or a camera not to mention nav? I backed up thru the parking lot just to make sure my neck could still turn that far!

However the options which are most important to me are premium and cold package and tow hitch so it was acceptable. The KBB value for a CPO with same options, miles is a little over $43,191 and "trade in" for what that's worth is $33,500.

Also, importantly, the diesel version is hard to find around here so I was willing to pay a premium for that. I'm never buying a car without driving it so it's time/money to travel around looking at used cars. I did have some motivation to jump on what I thought was a pretty fair deal.

Finally, I doubt you can get a dealer to sell near trade in value on the second of the month but I may be wrong there.

Last edited by tmepguy; 03-08-2013 at 04:51 AM. Reason: Had the wrong sticker price
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  #16  
Old 03-08-2013, 11:38 AM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmepguy View Post
Since I had already agreed to purchase the car and they called me today and said that all the codes were cleared and it was all set I went ahead and did not try to "undo" the purchase. I suggested that I would like to have a weekend test drive as was suggested on this thread. They called me back and said they were not able to do that but threw in a $500 check (I think from BMWNA) for the inconvenience I have gone through. I had another 20 minutes on the phone with the service manager. He assured me he felt this was normal operation and there were absolutely no problems with the vehicle. The theory is that the vehicle was sitting for several days after being driven in a normal use pattern and then was test driven by several folks in various conditions and with various driving styles and that caused the pollution sensors to become "unhappy" (for lack of a better description). In the end, it just required driving in a more normal pattern for a few days back to back to make the sensors happy again. !
The check was almost certainly not from BMWNA! They dont get involved with used cars.

The 'normal pattern/unusual pattern' is utter nonsense. He lied to you.


When you get the next CEL, come back and tell us.
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  #17  
Old 03-08-2013, 12:59 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Yes ARD I will.

The explanation provided to me by the service manager seems to be reasonable but of course I have no idea how the emissions computer system works or what constitutes normal operation.

Hopefully I will not have the same bad experience that you had with your 2010!
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  #18  
Old 03-08-2013, 02:48 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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I was able to get some more information from the service manager today. I still do not have the car because there is one more readiness code which has not cleared yet. Although it could pass emissions inspection in New York State with one readiness code thrown they want to keep it until all of the codes are cleared.

Here is a summary of what has happened: I agreed to buy the car last Saturday. They hooked it up to the emissions computer and the check engine light came on. It was a problem with the high-pressure exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) cooler. Apparently there are two EGR coolers, one on the induction side which is the high-pressure side and one on the other side of the turbo. The coolant is supposed to be shut off to that unit at the beginning of engine operation until the engine comes up to temperature as I understand it. The flap that prevents the coolant from flowing into the unit was not working. This caused a so-called plausibility fault because it was not logical for coolant to be flowing into the unit when coolant was supposed to be blocked from flowing into the unit. They quickly figured that out and replaced the high-pressure EGR cooler. After that they cleared the fault code.

The service manager told me that each time a fault code is cleared all of the emissions related readiness codes enter a non-ready state. After that occurs a number of hours of vehicle operation is required to get them to reset to a ready state. He said it was a case of very bad luck that the high pressure EGR cooler failed just as they were hooking up to the emissions computer. He said that circumstance has happened only three times in his career. This is the only X5 on which he has had it occur.

I think this ties in with several other people's experience on this board where there have been problems with the diesel emissions monitoring system. It is interesting however that apparently a great many diesel BMW owners have not had any problems at all. For example if this had not happened just as the car was getting an emission inspection but say 2 weeks before, all of those readiness codes would have cleared out and it would've passed emission with no problem. In other words if the fault was cleared and then the owner took the vehicle back and drove it for a few weeks all of those readiness codes would clear out and it would be a non-issue. The owner (not sure about the technicians) would have never known about the codes.

The car is out being driven now. He hopes that the last readiness code will reset to a ready state and at that point the car can be delivered.

I am really hoping for several years of happy motoring after getting off to a very rocky start with my first diesel vehicle.

Disclaimer: The above summary is as well as I can understand it after talking to the service manager. I am certainly not a mechanic so I may have misunderstood some part of his explanation.
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2013, 04:20 PM
ard ard is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmepguy View Post
I was able to get some more information from the service manager today. I still do not have the car because there is one more readiness code which has not cleared yet. Although it could pass emissions inspection in New York State with one readiness code thrown they want to keep it until all of the codes are cleared.

Here is a summary of what has happened: I agreed to buy the car last Saturday. They hooked it up to the emissions computer and the check engine light came on. It was a problem with the high-pressure exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) cooler. Apparently there are two EGR coolers, one on the induction side which is the high-pressure side and one on the other side of the turbo. The coolant is supposed to be shut off to that unit at the beginning of engine operation until the engine comes up to temperature as I understand it. The flap that prevents the coolant from flowing into the unit was not working. This caused a so-called plausibility fault because it was not logical for coolant to be flowing into the unit when coolant was supposed to be blocked from flowing into the unit. They quickly figured that out and replaced the high-pressure EGR cooler. After that they cleared the fault code.

The service manager told me that each time a fault code is cleared all of the emissions related readiness codes enter a non-ready state. After that occurs a number of hours of vehicle operation is required to get them to reset to a ready state. He said it was a case of very bad luck that the high pressure EGR cooler failed just as they were hooking up to the emissions computer. He said that circumstance has happened only three times in his career. This is the only X5 on which he has had it occur.

I think this ties in with several other people's experience on this board where there have been problems with the diesel emissions monitoring system. It is interesting however that apparently a great many diesel BMW owners have not had any problems at all. For example if this had not happened just as the car was getting an emission inspection but say 2 weeks before, all of those readiness codes would have cleared out and it would've passed emission with no problem. In other words if the fault was cleared and then the owner took the vehicle back and drove it for a few weeks all of those readiness codes would clear out and it would be a non-issue. The owner (not sure about the technicians) would have never known about the codes.

The car is out being driven now. He hopes that the last readiness code will reset to a ready state and at that point the car can be delivered.

I am really hoping for several years of happy motoring after getting off to a very rocky start with my first diesel vehicle.

Disclaimer: The above summary is as well as I can understand it after talking to the service manager. I am certainly not a mechanic so I may have misunderstood some part of his explanation.

1. I think the vast majority of diesels are fine too.

2. I think the service manager is- BY AND LARGE- telling the truth. The stuff about 'oh the light came on when we were hooking it up is...well, interesting. Here is the question for him: Will you let me see ever service record for that car to see if there has been a history of repetitive CEL errors? The temperature plausibility is very common with the whole diesel control defects saga.

As far as I know, the EGR coolers are 'air to air' coolers- so not 'coolant' flows into them... maybe he is talking about 'air' as 'coolant'...but without knowing what codes, we are guessing.

3. Another scenario is that there was a history of CELs, prior owner dumped it (trade assist?) and they found an old, stored code when the did the inspection- maybe a lit CEL or not, but the tech just reset it...but it is now not resetting the readiness indicators.

4, Here is the bottom line: Once you drive the car off the lot it is your problem. They have an incentive to 'color' the truth. Move you towards acceptance. They will not give you an extended test drive; they will not give you complete access to prior service history (you are CRAZY to not demand something that shows service history, at the least); they will not give you a "We unwind the deal if there is a diesel emissions CEL in the first 30 days. Why not any of this? Why are you forced to assume ALL the risk? if they are so earnest and honest and positive this is all a fluke, then why not afford you some protection?

5. MOST IMPORTANT: As a second owner do you have full rights to Lemon Law protection in your state?

GL

A
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Last edited by ard; 03-09-2013 at 08:12 AM.
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2013, 04:35 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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My understanding, which may help.

The car does not check every sensor continuously in real time; rather, it cycles through all its tests. If it detects an out-of-range value it throws an alert (code, whatever), which stays in memory till the next time it checks that sensor and finds a normal value. The most common example: you fill the car with fuel and don't shut the gas cap all the way. The car spots the problem and throws a CEL. Having been through this a dozen or more times, the first thing you do is stop and tighten the loose gas cap. The CEL stay illuminated when you get back in, but after a couple hours of driving it shuts off.

The first time this happens you think "WTF, Houston, do we have a problem?". After you've been down this path a couple of times, you no longer panic.

The service manager's explanation would tend to jibe with this. Don't lose too much sleep over it. ard is like Eeyore - always doom and gloom (but more bombastic than Eeyore in his delivery).
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  #21  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:06 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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I've been on this board long enough to realize I'm getting solid advice from some of the guru's on this subject matter.
I appreciate your input ard and quackbury.
I realized I have had the VIN all this time since I have the window sticker (duh!).
I googled it. The carfax is clean. 1 owner lease vehicle. No lemon, etc. Can't find any surprises on the VIN.

Quackbury, your summary is in agreement with what the SM told me today. BTW - nice wheels!

Ard, you are absolutely right about it becoming my problem as soon as I drive off the lot. (Although if it acts up it will be their problem too, but a bigger PIA for me). I'm not ready to try and cancel the deal yet.

Thanks for the advice during the last week.
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  #22  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:15 PM
RockChips RockChips is offline
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I'm confused here.

You bought a car that knowingly had problems?

You could have backed out correct?
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  #23  
Old 03-08-2013, 06:24 PM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Very detailed PDF of the entire EGR system.

I think the EGRs are liquid not air cooled.

http://prodcds.bmwuniversity.com/lib...erformance.pdf
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  #24  
Old 03-09-2013, 04:17 AM
tmepguy tmepguy is offline
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Originally Posted by RockChips View Post
I'm confused here.

You bought a car that knowingly had problems?

You could have backed out correct?
Rock chips - not that simple. Read post #18 above. I bought it and then it didn't pass emissions. Dealer 80 miles away. Not sure how they would respond if I refuse to take delivery.

Last edited by tmepguy; 03-09-2013 at 04:19 AM. Reason: Changed post #
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  #25  
Old 03-09-2013, 08:13 AM
ard ard is online now
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Originally Posted by tmepguy View Post
Very detailed PDF of the entire EGR system.

I think the EGRs are liquid not air cooled.

http://prodcds.bmwuniversity.com/lib...erformance.pdf
Very interesting read..I'd not seen that doc before
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