January 2013 segment sales numbers

Originally Posted by sf_loft

Cost of ownership of a 328 sedan below. It will vary based on state taxes and fees but on top of your $400/month payment you have insurance, fuel, depreciation, etc. But, if you're leasing, depreciation is the only thing that you pay for + insurance and registration. Then there are other things, which others have mentioned, like parking. So if you have a $400 BMW lease + $250-$500 parking cost + Insurance, which will vary based on age and zip code (big cities tend to be higher) - The cost of owning a 328 may not be as affordable to many as you think.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/..._of_ownership/

Yes, absolutely.

Again, it has nothing to do with a 3 being a status symbol or not. The economic realities are that more people are buying used cars than new cars, and even though the average price of a new car is $30,000 or so, a 328 is still totally beyond the average American. As is a Nissan Maxima and Ford Mustang GT.

Leasing provides a window of opportunity for some, but ironically, I personally believe leasing only makes sense for people that are very well off, with lots of cash on hand already...

I really don't feel like going into the details why, but leasing just to get into a nice car that you otherwise couldn't afford isn't a good idea.

Originally Posted by Elk

The "system?" The super, secret conspiracy BMW "system" of proper ownership?

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

I am up for a big job in the city and I now have a choice of $50 a day for parking, maybe $600 a month, or the train for $400. It's making me wince but I think I can negotiate a stipend. But fact is for my field, NYC is where 90% of the jobs are within a 90 mile radius.

Some companies will allow you to take up to $250 pre-tax as a commuter savings benefit or subsidize part of the cost. You can probably write it off as a business expense. I used to live in NYC and I would take the train because it is convenient and highly efficient. I don't think I would want or need to own a car if I lived in Manhattan. I can always rent a BMW zip car for the day if I needed to. A lot of my friends do that and one owns a 1.7 million dollar condo. He rents his garage space out to other residents in the building for $500 /month.

I work in downtown SF and take BART to work everyday. My car sits in my garage and will have less than 4k miles / year put on. My insurance cost has gone down due to low mileage, fill up for gas maybe once per month, my transit pass is pre-tax and only spend $70/month. When I'm lazy, I just hop on a cab a couple times a week and it is only a fraction of what I used to spend when I drove 60 miles a day.

Originally Posted by krash

Yes, absolutely.

Again, it has nothing to do with a 3 being a status symbol or not. The economic realities are that more people are buying used cars than new cars, and even though the average price of a new car is $30,000 or so, a 328 is still totally beyond the average American. As is a Nissan Maxima and Ford Mustang GT.

Leasing provides a window of opportunity for some, but ironically, I personally believe leasing only makes sense for people that are very well off, with lots of cash on hand already...

I really don't feel like going into the details why, but leasing just to get into a nice car that you otherwise couldn't afford isn't a good idea.

As pointed out earlier, financing a $40k 3 series likely has an $800 monthly payment for the next 5 years, as compared to $450 a month for the next 3 years if one leases. If one cannot afford the $450 payment to lease, it does not seem that it might be a better idea if he finances instead.

Originally Posted by krash

Yes, absolutely.

Again, it has nothing to do with a 3 being a status symbol or not. The economic realities are that more people are buying used cars than new cars, and even though the average price of a new car is $30,000 or so, a 328 is still totally beyond the average American. As is a Nissan Maxima and Ford Mustang GT.

Leasing provides a window of opportunity for some, but ironically, I personally believe leasing only makes sense for people that are very well off, with lots of cash on hand already...

I really don't feel like going into the details why, but leasing just to get into a nice car that you otherwise couldn't afford isn't a good idea.

As I said any car that is purchased used was previously purchased new and since some new cars never enter the used market due to being driven into the ground, totalled, etc. the used car market us totally dependent on the used car market of a few years earlier.

According to Time Magazine:

The most recent ALG Industry Report points out a “softening” in consumer demand for used cars. Thus far in 2012, the new-car market has been exceptionally strong, with especially outstanding sales totals in February, March, and April. Naturally, the used-car market hasn’t been quite as hot, the report states:
The percentage of dealership transactions attributable to used car sales has been steadily declining since January. Since their peak of nearly 65% in 2010, dealer used car transactions have been eclipsed by new car transactions as a percentage of total vehicle sales.
In August, the ratio of new-to-used cars sold at dealerships was about 1:1. As demand for used cars falls off, prices will follow; ALG researchers predicts that used-car values will drop 4% to 5% over the next 12 months, and over the next two to three years, used-car prices should be 8% to 10% lower than they are now.

If there is an area where most car sales are used cars the used cars are probably being brought in from a more affluent area.

From my experience some of the nicest areas lived in were the least affluent areas I lived in. The problem was I couldn't afford to live there and I had to move to a place where I could make a living.

CA

Originally Posted by krash

Yes, absolutely.

Again, it has nothing to do with a 3 being a status symbol or not. The economic realities are that more people are buying used cars than new cars, and even though the average price of a new car is $30,000 or so, a 328 is still totally beyond the average American. As is a Nissan Maxima and Ford Mustang GT.

Leasing provides a window of opportunity for some, but ironically, I personally believe leasing only makes sense for people that are very well off, with lots of cash on hand already...

I really don't feel like going into the details why, but leasing just to get into a nice car that you otherwise couldn't afford isn't a good idea.

I am not a leaser myself and think the same way you do, but in some situations it makes sense. Leasing a car you otherwise can't afford is never a good idea, but to many people, cars are like any other expenses (cable, electric, phone, gym membership, etc.) You pay for what you use and not think of it as equity or an investment. You should definitely spend within your comfort zone, but for people who like having a new car often, it is not a bad option.

I paid cash for my car, but I now barely use it since the new job. It sits in my garage and gets driven 4k miles / year. I still need a car for the weekend and the freedom to roam, but a low mileage lease makes more sense now. With that said, there is a threshold that I'm willing to pay per month. I wouldn't lease a $100k car unless I have so much money to throw every month, I would rather pay cash for anything north of 60k. The more expensive the car, the higher the depreciation, thus the less attractive lease deals.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

As I said any car that is purchased used was previously purchased new and since some new cars never enter the used market due to being driven into the ground, totalled, etc. the used car market us totally dependent on the used car market of a few years earlier.

According to Time Magazine:



If there is an area where most car sales are used cars the used cars are probably being brought in from a more affluent area.

From my experience some of the nicest areas lived in were the least affluent area I lived in. It all depends on where your priorities are at a particular time in your life.

CA

It's virtually Impossible to get real numbers on used car sales. They are talking about dealership sales attributed to used car sales. Not included are used car sales though other means. e.g., classifieds, Internet, Craigslist, and those that simply buy a car after seeing a "for sale" sign on a car parked in front of a gas station or something.

Yes, the cars are re-cycled, and we're once new. But Fact is, re-cycled cars are what most people are buying.

Getting back to the assertion that the 328 series is somehow easily accessible to everyday Americans, that is just a fallacy.

The average household income between 2009 and 2011 was only $26,364.00. Not sure how anyone can conclude that leasing a stripped down 328 is something that most Americans can handle.

Seriously, people are buying $4000 clunkers and considering themselves lucky. That my folks is reality.

So if you want to claim that the 3 series isn't a status symbol, it isn't exclusive, whatever, that's fine. But people in middleAmerica are at a point where a brand new fully loaded Chevy Malibu in the driveway next door is a huge status symbol in their neighborhood.

Originally Posted by krash

Who Said anything about it being a status symbol? We're just pointing out the truth. A 3 Series and even a Nissan Maxima or Acura TSX for that matter is out of reach for most Americans. It's even out of reach for most people in NYC metro area. Bronx? Queens? Newark? Jersey City? Those people don't count?

Let's forget about the 3 series altogether. Let's talk about a loaded Ford Mustang GT, Dodge Charger SRT8, or a Buick Lacrosse. Totally out of reach for the average car buyer. Too much money.

It's almost as if people have never left their house to see how most people live.

Who Said anything about it being a status symbol? - Not going to name anyone but the answer should be obvious.

It's even out of reach for most people in NYC metro area. Bronx? Queens? Newark? Jersey City? - I live in Brooklyn, there are far more bmws, benzes, lexuses and the like than accords and camrys in my neighborhood.

Those people don't count? - sadly, not to bmw, since these peple are not their customer base.

A 3 Series and even a Nissan Maxima or Acura TSX for that matter is out of reach for most Americans - so what is your point? how does it relate to the topic of the thread?

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Most Manhattan residents do not own cars. My building has about 180 apartments and about 45 space in the garage. There are about 30 monthly spaces (two of them are mine) and the garage takes in about 15 daily parkers. If I stand in front of my building, which is on a corner, there will be at least one BMW stopped at every change of the stop light. Many of the residents of my building could easily afford a car, BMW or otherwise, but consider it to be more bother than it is worth and I can see their point. 3 Series, 5 Series and even 7 Series are very common around here.

In areas like Greenwich CT. it is the same, BMWs are very common, but when I lived in Greenfield, MA BMWs were not a common sight. If I was in a situation like you are with children to put through college things would be very different. There are financial advantages to being an empty nester (or a no nester).

CA

Captain , in San Diego county there are 5 BMW dealers witin 40 minute of our home ! 6 if you go 55 minutes to Temecula just north , Boris Said (the race car driver) has that dealership .
So ,yes you see BMW's all day long on San Diego freeways. People don't even turn to look unless the car is quite exotic. We are a anomaly to 99% of the nation. Of course , homes are expensive. & even Phil Mickelson is considering moving out of state.

Originally Posted by krash

The average household income between 2009 and 2011 was only $26,364.00. Not sure how anyone can conclude that leasing a stripped down 328 is something that most Americans can handle.

I think you're a little off here.

In San Francisco and California respectively

$72,947 $61,632

The united states in general

$52,762

I think you copied and pasted the wrong column and used the per capita income which is recorded for anyone 15 years and older. Per capita in the U.S. between 2007-2011 is $27,915

Originally Posted by krash

It's virtually Impossible to get real numbers on used car sales. They are talking about dealership sales attributed to used car sales. Not included are used car sales though other means. e.g., classifieds, Internet, Craigslist, and those that simply buy a car after seeing a "for sale" sign on a car parked in front of a gas station or something.

Yes, the cars are re-cycled, and we're once new. But Fact is, re-cycled cars are what most people are buying.

Getting back to the assertion that the 328 series is somehow easily accessible to everyday Americans, that is just a fallacy.

The average household income between 2009 and 2011 was only $26,364.00. Not sure how anyone can conclude that leasing a stripped down 328 is something that most Americans can handle.

Seriously, people are buying $4000 clunkers and considering themselves lucky. That my folks is reality.

So if you want to claim that the 3 series isn't a status symbol, it isn't exclusive, whatever, that's fine. But people in middleAmerica are at a point where a brand new fully loaded Chevy Malibu in the driveway next door is a huge status symbol in their neighborhood.

The point which you are not seeing is that in places where BMW sells majority of its vehicles 3 series is not viewed as anything special. It might impress people in the less afluent areas, but that makes no difference to bmw since in those areas they do not sell a lot of cars.
I believe the matter in question is will the F30 turn off some part of bmw customer base because it lost certain aspects of the way it used to handle

there are number of those who argue that its all about luxury and the new 3 is the greatest thing ever that will sell like hot cakes. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by PK2348

The point which you are not seeing is that in places where BMW sells majority of its vehicles 3 series is not viewed as anything special. It might impress people in the less afluent areas, but that makes no difference to bmw since in those areas they do not sell a lot of cars.
I believe the matter in question is will the F30 turn off some part of bmw customer base because it lost certain aspects of the way it used to handle

there are number of those who argue that its all about luxury and the new 3 is the greatest thing ever that will sell like hot cakes. Time will tell.

So what! Those markets only represent a fraction of the US market.

For those who say that NY is the city of 1%ers, well yes there are a lot of 3% and 1% in new york, but the rest as a whole:

New York, NY (Manhattan) : Household - $67,204, Per capita - $61,290 (All of new york state - $31,796)
Bronx County: Household - $34,744 Per capita - $17,992
Kings County (Brooklyn): Household - $44,593 Per capita - $27,915
Queens County: Household - $56,406 Per capita - $26,234
Nassau County (Long Island): Household - $95,823 Per capita - $42,307
Suffolk County (more Long Island) : Household - $87,187 Per capita - $36,588

So in NY, Long Islanders are the richest - I guess this makes sense because this is where a lot of the 1% mostly live (Hampton's).

The interesting stat about NY county / Manhattan is that the Per capita is the highest at $61k. A lot of single households with a higher average income.

Where BJ lives, in Bergen, household income is $83,443 and per capita - $43,012.

Quite interesting and educational reading up on census data. I also just realized that San Francisco is 34% Asians. I'm included, but holy shiznit, that's a lot

Originally Posted by sf_loft

I think you're a little off here.

In San Francisco and California respectively

$72,947 $61,632

The united states in general

$52,762

I think you copied and pasted the wrong column and used the per capita income which is recorded for anyone 15 years and older. Per capita in the U.S. between 2007-2011 is $27,915

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1022118.html

Originally Posted by PK2348

Who Said anything about it being a status symbol? - Not going to name anyone but the answer should be obvious.

It's even out of reach for most people in NYC metro area. Bronx? Queens? Newark? Jersey City? - I live in Brooklyn, there are far more bmws, benzes, lexuses and the like than accords and camrys in my neighborhood.

Those people don't count? - sadly, not to bmw, since these peple are not their customer base.

A 3 Series and even a Nissan Maxima or Acura TSX for that matter is out of reach for most Americans - so what is your point? how does it relate to the topic of the thread?

Just responding to the fallacy that a BMW 328 is easily affordable and accessible to every day Americans. It most certainly is not.

Originally Posted by krash

So what! Those markets only represent a fraction of the US market.

by those markets, you mean areas where bmw does not sell a lot of cars or those of us who chose 3 series for its handling?

Originally Posted by krash

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...n_1022118.html

Yes, they are reporting the average individual wage / per capita. Household is higher, but you are correct.

Originally Posted by PK2348

by those markets, you mean areas where bmw does not sell a lot of cars or those of us who chose 3 series for its handling?

I mean hollistically, BMW 3s are very exclusive for 99% of the country and only 1% of the country think it's a common, ho-hum, run of the mill car-you-see-every-day type of an automobile.

Originally Posted by sf_loft

Yes, they are reporting the average individual wage / per capita. Household is higher, but you are correct.

Yeah, I mistakenly said household instead of individual income, but fact is, even if you use household income, moms and dads all over the country aren't sitting at the kitchen table talking about leasing a stripped down 328. They're living paycheck to paycheck trying to figure out how to pay their mortgage on a monthly basis and how to buy braces for their 12 year olds. They're also buying used $4000 clunkers to serve as their family vehicle.

Originally Posted by sf_loft

For those who say that NY is the city of 1%ers, well yes there are a lot of 3% and 1% in new york, but the rest as a whole:

New York, NY (Manhattan) : Household - $67,204, Per capita - $61,290 (All of new york state - $31,796)
Bronx County: Household - $34,744 Per capita - $17,992
Kings County (Brooklyn): Household - $44,593 Per capita - $27,915
Queens County: Household - $56,406 Per capita - $26,234
Nassau County (Long Island): Household - $95,823 Per capita - $42,307
Suffolk County (more Long Island) : Household - $87,187 Per capita - $36,588

So in NY, Long Islanders are the richest - I guess this makes sense because this is where a lot of the 1% mostly live (Hampton's).

The interesting stat about NY county / Manhattan is that the Per capita is the highest at $61k. A lot of single households with a higher average income.

Where BJ lives, in Bergen, household income is $83,443 and per capita - $43,012.

Quite interesting and educational reading up on census data. I also just realized that San Francisco is 34% Asians. I'm included, but holy shiznit, that's a lot

Like many large cities, Manhattan is a place where in a few blocks you can go from a neighborhood where homes cost $20,000,000 to public housing projects within a distance of a few blocks. The richest Zip code in the country is in Manhattan as are 3 more of the top ten. Even in those affluent zip codes there are people living in relatively affordable walk ups above the stores. I have a friend who pays $250 for a rent controlled apartment. When he looks out his back window he sees David Rockefeller's town house.

A

Originally Posted by krash

I mean hollistically, BMW 3s are very exclusive for 99% of the country and only 1% of the country think it's a common, ho-hum, run of the mill, car-you-see-every-day type of an automobile.

There isn't just the 99% and the 1%. There's the 3%, 5%, and 10%

You don't have to be in the 1% to say that a BMW is a ho-hum run of the mill car.

To find out where you are on the % scale: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rcent-map.html

Attached is a chart of where you need to be in the U.S. to be in the top 1%, doesn't seem very high. If you narrow it down to city or region, it is much higher.

Originally Posted by krash

I mean hollistically, BMW 3s are very exclusive for 99% of the country and only 1% of the country think it's a common, ho-hum, run of the mill car-you-see-every-day type of an automobile.

You are dangerously close to infringing on BJ's own statistical creation patent.

You may be surprised there are many families that are more than willing to pay more to finance a Camry or Accord at $500 a month, than lease a 328i for the same money. I don't suppose those familes are much poorer just because they drive Camry or Accord, not a BMW.

Originally Posted by sf_loft

There isn't just the 99% and the 1%. There's the 3%, 5%, and 10%

You don't have to be in the 1% to say that a BMW is a ho-hum run of the mill car.

To find out where you are on the % scale: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rcent-map.html

Attached is a chart of where you need to be in the U.S. to be in the top 1%, doesn't seem very high. If you narrow it down to city or region, it is much higher.

Is that before or after taxes?

That's the funny thing, gross salaries are almost meaning less, its what goes into your pocket that counts. What's $50k after taxes, $30-35k?

Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen

Is that before or after taxes?

That's the funny thing, gross salaries are almost meaning less, its what goes into your pocket that counts. What's $50k after taxes, $30-35k?

I would assume gross.

Originally Posted by dtc100

You are dangerously close to infringing on BJ's own statistical creation patent.

You may be surprised there are many families that are more than willing to pay more to finance a Camry or Accord at $500 a month, than lease a 328i for the same money. I don't suppose those familes are much poorer just because they drive Camry or Accord, not a BMW.

BJ is right. I just take it a step further. People that have the means to finance an Accord or a Camry are doing really well by today's standards. Good for them...

More than half the country couldn't get into one of those.