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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #76  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:24 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by kobechrome View Post
Could just be that more people are buying cars because there are more people. My only point is that IF BMW really screwed up in moving more towards luxury, then numbers would show it. So far it hasn't (except for Jan). BTW - I am not for BMW doing this. I loved my E46 and E90 and feel that my current F30 is definitely looser and softer - but at the end of the day, after test driving a number of cars, is still my first choice.
First off, your last 5 posts have been spot-on, bravo.

There is no F30 vs. E90 data available for January. And when BMW reports on the 3 Series they usually do not break out the Sedan from the Coupe and the Vert either. As stated earlier tonight, there is historical precedence for this back in the 2006/7 transition period. The Sedan was selling beyond expectations but the other bodystyles were old and being replaced, sales slowed down high-double-digit.

If my eyes are any indication, the F30 is selling like hotcakes. I used to go a whole week with only 1 F30 sighting. Just today, must have seen 5 of them, maybe more.

BJ
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  #77  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
An Audi says "graduated from a Passat, can't afford a luxury car".

A Mercedes says "this guy has money, is on the way up".

A BMW says "this guy has money, is on the way up, and he's kicking ass to get there".

BJ
I recall among brands in this segment, Audi drivers have the highest education and income levels. Not that I care about Audi, but you really need to see a therapist

Audi tends to cost more than the equivalent BMW and MB models, apparently people who can't afford luxury are getting BMW and MB instead.

Last edited by dtc100; 02-04-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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  #78  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:36 PM
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dtc100 First BJ claimed the ATS was an utter failure, after seeing it selling more than the A4, and likely more than the G37 if only sedans are counted. So basically as far as sedans, the ATS was the third, behind the C and F30 last month.

I don't view the A4 and G37 as successes, therefore seeing the ATS put up numbers at their level is nothing to write home about. Especially when you consider how much GM spent on over-advertising the ATS and all those magazine write-ups and all those comparos. Sales occur when deliveries are made. I'll bet you anything that the January number you're touting has many November and December orders arriving late, puffing it up. Next month will be interesting. Either way, with that kind of massive ad blitz, making a tiny dent in the category is not a success.

Then BJ insists only 70 year olds drive ATS, when over at the Caddy sites it is all 20 to 40 year olds reporting their first Caddy experiences with the new ATS.

They sell so few it's possible that some youngsters chose an ATS over a Malibu. After all, they cost almost the same thing.

I was then reminded that BJ was very happy BMW will release the 320i, because according to him it will be a perfect car for his 70 year old mother.

That's correct. The lower price would have put her in an F30 instead of a TL two years ago when her lease was up.

Now I am no therapist, but I have a feeling someone in that profession will have a good theory about what BJ is going through. It can be summed up with one word, or two.

BJ is not going through anything. BMW could never sell another F30 for all I care. I have mine, that's all that matters.

BJ
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  #79  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I recall among brands in this segment, Audi drivers have the highest education and income levels. Not that I care about Audi, but you really need to see a therapist

Audi tends to cost more than the equivalent BMW and MB models, apparently people who can't afford luxury are getting BMW and MB instead.
BMW has lower education and income levels than Audi because it is more popular than Audi. When you have millions of people trying to do anything to put themselves into a BMW to show off to their friends, they tend to make some bad financial decisions relative to their lifestyles.

No one goes off to school and thinks to themselves "Gee, I hope when I graduate I get a great job so I can own an Audi." LOL. Sounds funny just to say that.

BJ
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  #80  
Old 02-04-2013, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
No. Just common sense.

I've only seen a single ATS and it was on display in a local outlet mall. Another poster a few weeks ago saw an ATS at a Cadillac dealership. In both instances, the people sitting in the car and buzzing about the car were older males, not the sporty-yuppie-types portrayed in the snazzy ATS commercial campaign (which appears to have been ditched because I haven't seen a spot since November).

BJ
So two anecdotal reports of what two posters on a BMW forum saw is reliable data on the demographic of the purchasers of 2,700 Cadillac ATS during the month of January.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-04-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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  #81  
Old 02-04-2013, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW has lower education and income levels than Audi because it is more popular than Audi. When you have millions of people trying to do anything to put themselves into a BMW to show off to their friends, they tend to make some bad financial decisions relative to their lifestyles.

No one goes off to school and thinks to themselves "Gee, I hope when I graduate I get a great job so I can own an Audi." LOL. Sounds funny just to say that.

BJ
This could lead to a great new slogan.

"BMW the #1 luxury car choice of people who really can't afford one."

Has sort to a nice ring to it.

CA
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  #82  
Old 02-04-2013, 10:19 PM
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So two anecdotal reports of what two posters on a BMW forum saw is reliable data on the demographic of the purchasers of 2,700 Cadillac ATS during the month of January.

CA
I never said that. I'm offering an opinion, just like everyone else.

Since the ATS is such a mystery, such a seldom-seen, barely-sold failure it's hard to make out what it is exactly. Maybe all the sales went to 18 year olds as Christmas presents. Maybe every E46 owner shed tears of joy and secretly purchased them without telling anyone. Maybe Carroll Shelby's corporation is secretly hoarding them for fantastic modification. I'm not going to put up much of a fight here, not enough units sold to matter who bought them.

BJ
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  #83  
Old 02-04-2013, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post

BJ is not going through anything. BMW could never sell another F30 for all I care. I have mine, that's all that matters.

BJ
Well that attitude by itself is going through something. Basically you have no interest in anything that is not yours, even those who made yours happen. So I am baffled why you are so interested in the threads which the purpose is to compare with the others.

Do you care or do you not care? Do you even know the answer?

Last edited by dtc100; 02-04-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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  #84  
Old 02-04-2013, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
BMW has lower education and income levels than Audi because it is more popular than Audi. When you have millions of people trying to do anything to put themselves into a BMW to show off to their friends, they tend to make some bad financial decisions relative to their lifestyles.
So if we put the above in your own words, we should say, "A BMW says this guy has less money, wants to be seen on the way up, and he's kicking his own ass to get there."

Quote:
No one goes off to school and thinks to themselves "Gee, I hope when I graduate I get a great job so I can own an Audi." LOL. Sounds funny just to say that.

BJ
But for the few among them who actually graduate and get a great job, they end up getting an Audi?
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  #85  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I recall among brands in this segment, Audi drivers have the highest education and income levels. Not that I care about Audi, but you really need to see a therapist

Audi tends to cost more than the equivalent BMW and MB models, apparently people who can't afford luxury are getting BMW and MB instead.
I would say Audis cost more to lease. But they do cost a little less when buying. It is certainly a better value if prestige and status is not as important. Even the lowest trim A4 comes with leather and sunroof.
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  #86  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:52 AM
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According to motortrend BMW cleared out e90 inventory with incentives in December. In my opinion sales will rebound just fine in the next 2 months. I also read a blog that GM has built up 20,000 ATS models in inventory so I bet we see incentives very soon! Looks like the ATS may have plateaued at 2700 vehicles per month. If the inventory levels are true than GM had high expectations that are not being met.
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  #87  
Old 02-05-2013, 04:18 AM
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I think there is one more explanation : number of cylinders. Many people still care and understand.

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The C-Class and the 3-Series currently got the same 4- and 6-cylinder setups...
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  #88  
Old 02-05-2013, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
An Audi says "graduated from a Passat, can't afford a luxury car".

A Mercedes says "this guy has money, is on the way up".

A BMW says "this guy has money, is on the way up, and he's kicking ass to get there".
All it really says is "I have $400 spare each month".
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  #89  
Old 02-05-2013, 04:48 AM
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I recall among brands in this segment, Audi drivers have the highest education and income levels.
For what it's worth, Saab drivers were always the highest educated.
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  #90  
Old 02-05-2013, 05:29 AM
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Acura was never anything. It was a step-up Honda and a practical BMW, nothing more. Acura said "this man has money but is smart with his money", they'd give you a car that was size and optioned like a 5 Series for 3 Series money.

Audi, Cadillac, and Lexus have no "prestige and history". They are all re-badged Jetta's, Lacrosse's, and Camry's. Anyone who can afford a BMW knows this.

The sporty DNA doesn't go away simply because the car is no longer sporty. BMW has 20 years before they can deteriorate the brand that badly, and just because they're messing with the Sedan and making it more stately doesn't mean that Mr. & Mrs. Camry don't get all hot and bothered over the gorgeous Roadster or the stunning 4 Coupe. The brand equity trickles down to all the models. The 3 doesn't stand on its own.

BJ
Audi has more prestige and history in the motorsport arena then BMW, from rally to Le Mans. GM could hold its own as well just with the Corvette alone. Acuras major flaw is/was the FWD setup. Outside of that it makes better engines and transmissions. It also incorporates wishbone suspension setup, something you will not find on the 3 Series. Lexus is slowly on its way back and Toyota can make some fantastic cars (most recently the Supra and now the FR-S). The competition is stiff and more cutthroat then before. The C outsold the 3 by a huge margin and it is riding on an old chassis. Riddle me that.
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  #91  
Old 02-05-2013, 05:34 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Here's the irony:

Because of the performance enthusiast population pumping the car up and buying lots of M3's, those who are just in it for the badge get the bonus of being cloaked in a shroud of trendy sportiness.

An Audi says "graduated from a Passat, can't afford a luxury car".

A Mercedes says "this guy has money, is on the way up".

A BMW says "this guy has money, is on the way up, and he's kicking ass to get there".

BMW has been portrayed in TV shows, movies, rock songs, hip-hop songs for decades as the car to own for just this reason. It's the cool-man's luxury car. Not some stuffy soft thing like a Mercedes, not some rebadged VW like an Audi. Most who buy a BMW are not in it for the quality or the ride characteristics. They're in it for how it makes them look.

BJ
A BMW says "this guy will most likely not use his turn signal".

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-05-2013 at 05:57 AM.
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  #92  
Old 02-05-2013, 06:16 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is online now
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
I recall among brands in this segment, Audi drivers have the highest education and income levels. Not that I care about Audi, but you really need to see a therapist

Audi tends to cost more than the equivalent BMW and MB models, apparently people who can't afford luxury are getting BMW and MB instead.
For the longest time the car buyers with the highest education were Saab buyers. That did not do much for the brand-sad face.
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  #93  
Old 02-05-2013, 06:26 AM
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A BMW says "this guy will most likely not use his turn signal".
Why do you say this?
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  #94  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:40 AM
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Well that attitude by itself is going through something. Basically you have no interest in anything that is not yours, even those who made yours happen.
Dr. Freud:

Stick to what you know.

BJ
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  #95  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:49 AM
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Audi has more prestige and history in the motorsport arena then BMW, from rally to Le Mans. GM could hold its own as well just with the Corvette alone. Acuras major flaw is/was the FWD setup. Outside of that it makes better engines and transmissions. It also incorporates wishbone suspension setup, something you will not find on the 3 Series. Lexus is slowly on its way back and Toyota can make some fantastic cars (most recently the Supra and now the FR-S). The competition is stiff and more cutthroat then before. The C outsold the 3 by a huge margin and it is riding on an old chassis. Riddle me that.
Dr. Broken Record:

We are talking about sales in the month of January to Mr. & Mrs. America and Mr. & Mrs. America have no clue what you're talking about. Motorsport arenas? Rally's? Le Mans? Wishbone suspensions?

This conversation has nothing to do with performance enthusiasm. That chat will happen when the 4 Series and M's are released. We're talking about the aging Coupe and Convertible dragging sales down and the successful new Sedan here. The typical buyer of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus in this segment are leasing stripped base models as a status symbol for a $75 vig over a loaded Accord. They don't give a crap about wishbone suspensions at Le Mans. They want their families, friends, and neighbors to think they're successful. That's it. The C is finally a hottie, the 3 is sexy and fresh, the F32 and F33 are coming and no one wants an E92 or E93 now. Ain't rocket science.

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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-05-2013 at 07:50 AM.
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  #96  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Dr. Broken Record:

We are talking about sales in the month of January to Mr. & Mrs. America and Mr. & Mrs. America have no clue what you're talking about. Motorsport arenas? Rally's? Le Mans? Wishbone suspensions?

This conversation has nothing to do with performance enthusiasm. That chat will happen when the 4 Series and M's are released. We're talking about the aging Coupe and Convertible dragging sales down and the successful new Sedan here. The typical buyer of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus in this segment are leasing stripped base models as a status symbol for a $75 vig over a loaded Accord. They don't give a crap about wishbone suspensions at Le Mans. They want their families, friends, and neighbors to think they're successful. That's it. The C is finally a hottie, the 3 is sexy and fresh, the F32 and F33 are coming and no one wants an E92 or E93 now. Ain't rocket science.

BJ
Then it is quite sad the C trounced the 3 in sales, isn't it.
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  #97  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
A BMW says "this guy will most likely not use his turn signal".
Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Why do you say this?
There is a small, violent segment of BMW owners who hate the BMW brand.

If they don't want to be seen in status symbols they should stop buying them. Pretty simple concept.

BJ
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  #98  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
There is a small, violent segment of BMW owners who hate the BMW brand.

If they don't want to be seen in status symbols they should stop buying them. Pretty simple concept.

BJ
You really want to go there? Google "BMW drivers are"....Ill leave it at that. I don't want to have this discussion in this thread or even on this forum.
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  #99  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:58 AM
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Then it is quite sad the C trounced the 3 in sales, isn't it.
Mercedes doesn't matter to me. I don't drive one.

Legends have died; move on.

BJ
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  #100  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:59 AM
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Anyone have any figures on what percentage of 3 Series sales the coupe and convertible account for in a year when they are all the current body style.

Also Audi and BMW would not be fielding race teams if doing so did not spur sales of their cars. Fielding teams at LeMans and in other major race series is wildly expensive and they are not going to do it if they do not see a return on investment.

At one point Formula one teams were spending close to One Billion dollars per year. No company, whether it's BMW, Honda, Audi or Red Bull is going to spend that kind of money if they are not seeing a return on the investment.



CA
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