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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #101  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:59 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by 3284me View Post
According to motortrend BMW cleared out e90 inventory with incentives in December. In my opinion sales will rebound just fine in the next 2 months. I also read a blog that GM has built up 20,000 ATS models in inventory so I bet we see incentives very soon! Looks like the ATS may have plateaued at 2700 vehicles per month. If the inventory levels are true than GM had high expectations that are not being met.
If you are correct that GM has not offered any incentives for the ATS while selling around 2,700 to 2,900, and will offer incentives soon to start clearing inventory, then how did you conclude the 2,700 units will peak out?
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  #102  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:01 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Dr. Freud:

Stick to what you know.

BJ
Unlike you, I only know when I see or read what you said, not what I imagine. Having said that, stick to what you imagine, it's fun.
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  #103  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:07 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Anyone have any figures on what percentage of 3 Series sales the coupe and convertible account for in a year when they are all the current body style.
30% of 3 Series sales come from the Coupe and Convertible:

The 3-Series line – sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon – is a cornerstone of BMW's global product portfolio and profits.

It is the top-selling luxury nameplate worldwide with 2011 sales of 382,218 – or 28 percent of the BMW brand's sales of 1.38 million, according to IHS Automotive and the company.

The coupe and convertible each accounted for 15 percent – or about 14,000 units apiece – of the 3 series' U.S. sales of 94,371 last year, BMW said.


http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...print&page=all

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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Also Audi and BMW would not be fielding race teams if doing so did not spur sales of their cars. Fielding teams at LeMans and in other major race series is wildly expensive and they are not going to do it if they do not see a return on investment.
At one point Formula one teams were spending close to One Billion dollars per year.

CA
Formula 1 racing in Europe is huge, the NASCAR over there. So asking why BMW fields a Formula 1 team in Europe is like asking why Chevy fields a NASCAR team in Kentucky.

The biggest differentiation between BMW and its competitors is the perception of "sporty tendencies", so in the US having posters of BMW race cars in the showrooms helps keep that perception alive even though the cars themselves say otherwise.

BJ
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  #104  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:09 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
For the longest time the car buyers with the highest education were Saab buyers. That did not do much for the brand-sad face.
What you know, it was GM that killed Saab. I guess they did not like selling luxury cars to those with high level of education, they'd rather be like BMW, go after the general less-educated mass.

But let's try not to mention Saab before BJ turns violent
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  #105  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:11 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Mercedes doesn't matter to me. I don't drive one.

Legends have died; move on.

BJ
And here is the problem.
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  #106  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:13 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
30% of 3 Series sales come from the Coupe and Convertible:

The 3-Series line – sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon – is a cornerstone of BMW's global product portfolio and profits.

It is the top-selling luxury nameplate worldwide with 2011 sales of 382,218 – or 28 percent of the BMW brand's sales of 1.38 million, according to IHS Automotive and the company.

The coupe and convertible each accounted for 15 percent – or about 14,000 units apiece – of the 3 series' U.S. sales of 94,371 last year, BMW said.


http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...print&page=all



Formula 1 racing in Europe is huge, the NASCAR over there. So asking why BMW fields a Formula 1 team in Europe is like asking why Chevy fields a NASCAR team in Kentucky.

The biggest differentiation between BMW and its competitors is the perception of "sporty tendencies", so in the US having posters of BMW race cars in the showrooms helps keep that perception alive even though the cars themselves say otherwise.

BJ
BMW has teams in Grand Am and ALMS (who recently merged) both of which are American race series. The subsidize Turner Motorsports and Chip Ganassi Racing, both of which are US based teams and they are the "official" car of Lime Rock Park and provide them with pace cars, safety cars and personal cars for the staff.



CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-05-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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  #107  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:14 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
30% of 3 Series sales come from the Coupe and Convertible:

The 3-Series line – sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon – is a cornerstone of BMW's global product portfolio and profits.

It is the top-selling luxury nameplate worldwide with 2011 sales of 382,218 – or 28 percent of the BMW brand's sales of 1.38 million, according to IHS Automotive and the company.

The coupe and convertible each accounted for 15 percent – or about 14,000 units apiece – of the 3 series' U.S. sales of 94,371 last year, BMW said.


http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...print&page=all



Formula 1 racing in Europe is huge, the NASCAR over there. So asking why BMW fields a Formula 1 team in Europe is like asking why Chevy fields a NASCAR team in Kentucky.

The biggest differentiation between BMW and its competitors is the perception of "sporty tendencies", so in the US having posters of BMW race cars in the showrooms helps keep that perception alive even though the cars themselves say otherwise.

BJ
Exactly, but that perception is clearly fading.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes."

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...mw-328i-page-3

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-05-2013 at 09:15 AM.
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  #108  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:14 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
30% of 3 Series sales come from the Coupe and Convertible:

The 3-Series line – sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon – is a cornerstone of BMW's global product portfolio and profits.

It is the top-selling luxury nameplate worldwide with 2011 sales of 382,218 – or 28 percent of the BMW brand's sales of 1.38 million, according to IHS Automotive and the company.

The coupe and convertible each accounted for 15 percent – or about 14,000 units apiece – of the 3 series' U.S. sales of 94,371 last year, BMW said.


http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2012/...print&page=all

...

BJ
If so BMW might have just sold 3,400 F30 sedans last month. If so, would it not be a near utter failure, if the ATS sedans' 2,781 was an utter failure?
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  #109  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:18 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
BMW has teams in Grand Am and ALMS (who recently merged) both of which are American race series. The subsidize Turner Motorsports and Chip Ganassi Racing, both of which are US based teams and they are the "official" car of Lime Rock Park and provide them with pace cars, safety cars and personal cars for the staff.

CA
Within the massive walls of BMW USA Headquarters there is a small, niche division that is responsible for ///M sales and marketing and they spend their tiny budget on sportsmanlike events such as those.

It does not mean that it moves the needle for the other 98% of 3 Series sales. They get far more benefit from a rerun of "Pretty In Pink" or a new Jay-Z song.

BJ
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  #110  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:26 AM
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What you know, it was GM that killed Saab. I guess they did not like selling luxury cars to those with high level of education, they'd rather be like BMW, go after the general less-educated mass.

But let's try not to mention Saab before BJ turns violent
Saab wasn't making money before GM bought them, and needed help. Saab would never have surived as long as it did without GM buying it. Saab didn't make money for GM either. It was a losing proposition. The reality is that GM prolonged the existence of Saab. Once GM divested from Saab, they were toast. Saab couldn't sustain itself.
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  #111  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:30 AM
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Exactly, but that perception is clearly fading.

"Our grave concern here is that, with each new car it introduces, BMW seems to wrap more padding around the sensations and feel that make them great-while its competitors only zero in more tightly on those same attributes."
You don't get it. That's precisely the reason why BMW is selling so many 3 Series and why they're going to sell a lot more in the next 5 years.

I will use myself as an example here. I am as loyal to BMW as it gets, cut my driving teeth on dad's 1980 7 Series, drove mom's 3 Series and 5 Series for years before getting my own 3 Convertible and 3 M-Sport Sedan. But time goes by and I'm in my 40's and the kids are in their 10's and no one liked riding in dad's BMW's.

The 'Vert was too small, the Sedan was too harsh. My 11 year old son couldn't stand being in the back seat of my E90, feeling every road imperfection, being startled by the pothole explosions, getting nauseous because dad could take turns fast-and-hard. Similarly, my wife thought the trunk and back seat were too small, didn't like the lack of creature comforts, didn't like the stiff ride.

When my E90 lease was up, I test drove the 5 Series and stopped off at Mercedes Benz. If not for the fact that the F30 got bigger and softer they'd have lost me as a customer.

Similarly, my mom's SUV lease was up and she wanted to come back to BMW in 2011 now that she's alone and in her 70's. But in comparing the cost and options to an Acura TL she didn't choose the BMW because it was more money and gave her less features. The F30 solves my issue and the 320i my mom's issue.

98% of BMW's customer base will appreciate the "luxury refinement" of the F30 because that was the reason they were buying it in the first place and they no longer have to suffer with the "sport" driving feel that they never wanted. The wanted the perception of being "sporty". They didn't actually want to drive an uncomfortable sports car. BMW figured it out, finally.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-05-2013 at 09:33 AM.
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  #112  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't get it. That's precisely the reason why BMW is selling so many 3 Series and why they're going to sell a lot more in the next 5 years.

I will use myself as an example here. I am as loyal to BMW as it gets, cut my driving teeth on dad's 1980 7 Series, drove mom's 3 Series and 5 Series for years before getting my own 3 Convertible and 3 M-Sport Sedan. But time goes by and I'm in my 40's and the kids are in their 10's and no one liked riding in dad's BMW's.

The 'Vert was too small, the Sedan was too harsh. My 11 year old son couldn't stand being in the back seat of my E90, feeling every road imperfection, being startled by the pothole explosions, getting nauseous because dad could take turns fast-and-hard. Similarly, my wife thought the trunk and back seat were too small, didn't like the lack of creature comforts, didn't like the stiff ride.

When my E90 lease was up, I test drove the 5 Series and stopped off at Mercedes Benz. If not for the fact that the F30 got bigger and softer they'd have lost me as a customer.

Similarly, my mom's SUV lease was up and she wanted to come back to BMW in 2011 now that she's alone and in her 70's. But in comparing the cost and options to an Acura TL she didn't choose the BMW because it was more money and gave her less features. The F30 solves my issue and the 320i my mom's issue.

98% of BMW's customer base will appreciate the "luxury refinement" of the F30 because that was the reason they were buying it in the first place and they no longer have to suffer with the "sport" driving feel that they never wanted. The wanted the perception of being "sporty". They didn't actually want to drive an uncomfortable sports car. BMW figured it out, finally.

BJ
We get it, you have been telling us BMW 3 drivers are getting old. Maybe your insisting that ATS drivers are older is just a way to ease your own angst about 3 drivers getting old.

Take it easy, 50 is the new 30, and 70 is the new 40.

Last edited by dtc100; 02-05-2013 at 09:51 AM.
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  #113  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:01 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
You don't get it. That's precisely the reason why BMW is selling so many 3 Series and why they're going to sell a lot more in the next 5 years.

I will use myself as an example here. I am as loyal to BMW as it gets, cut my driving teeth on dad's 1980 7 Series, drove mom's 3 Series and 5 Series for years before getting my own 3 Convertible and 3 M-Sport Sedan. But time goes by and I'm in my 40's and the kids are in their 10's and no one liked riding in dad's BMW's.

The 'Vert was too small, the Sedan was too harsh. My 11 year old son couldn't stand being in the back seat of my E90, feeling every road imperfection, being startled by the pothole explosions, getting nauseous because dad could take turns fast-and-hard. Similarly, my wife thought the trunk and back seat were too small, didn't like the lack of creature comforts, didn't like the stiff ride.

When my E90 lease was up, I test drove the 5 Series and stopped off at Mercedes Benz. If not for the fact that the F30 got bigger and softer they'd have lost me as a customer.

Similarly, my mom's SUV lease was up and she wanted to come back to BMW in 2011 now that she's alone and in her 70's. But in comparing the cost and options to an Acura TL she didn't choose the BMW because it was more money and gave her less features. The F30 solves my issue and the 320i my mom's issue.

98% of BMW's customer base will appreciate the "luxury refinement" of the F30 because that was the reason they were buying it in the first place and they no longer have to suffer with the "sport" driving feel that they never wanted. The wanted the perception of being "sporty". They didn't actually want to drive an uncomfortable sports car. BMW figured it out, finally.

BJ
But there are cars that offer more luxury and technology for the same price or less. Lexus and MB for example. You don't get it. This isn't the 90's anymore where the 3 ruled the segment. The C class sales posted above prove this point. Lexus is on a rebound and will be a major player very shortly. The new A4 and Q50 (G) will be here shortly as well. The ATS is doing extremely well considering your point that nobody wants a sporty sedan anymore. This is a very tight segment and a brand loyalty will only get you so far once people start to realize that there are better cars out there for less.
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  #114  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:16 AM
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But there are cars that offer more luxury and technology for the same price or less. Lexus and MB for example.
I don't know about that. I sat in a Mercedes C class. I wouldn't classify that as more luxurious. Actually, I consider a lot of the controls to be of cheaper quality compared to the F30.

Plus, ever since the 3 series was introduced back in the late 70s, there have always been cheaper, more luxurious cars.

I do agree that the competition is getting better though, no doubt.
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Last edited by krash; 02-05-2013 at 10:20 AM.
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  #115  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:38 AM
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But there are cars that offer more luxury and technology for the same price or less. Lexus and MB for example. You don't get it. This isn't the 90's anymore where the 3 ruled the segment. The C class sales posted above prove this point. Lexus is on a rebound and will be a major player very shortly. The new A4 and Q50 (G) will be here shortly as well. The ATS is doing extremely well considering your point that nobody wants a sporty sedan anymore. This is a very tight segment and a brand loyalty will only get you so far once people start to realize that there are better cars out there for less.
If BMW is moving away from the sport sedan market and Cadillac is filling or even partially filling that gap I would say that was a smart marketing move by GM.

CA
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  #116  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:48 AM
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  1. BMW is NOT moving away from the sport sedan market. Period.
  2. The competition is getting better, no doubt. This is a good thing.
  3. BMW is simultaneously moving the 3 series both up and down market. Some of the 335s out there are the most expensive 3's ever (not counting Ms). Plus, the 320 is coming out, and that's going to be a huge seller and broaden the market base.
  4. The 3 is getting more luxurious, comes with more bells and whistles than ever before, and this trend will continue.
  5. The 3 series is still sticking to it's sport sedan roots. e.g., Sport Line, M Sport, Dynamic Handling, Adaptive Suspension, Paddle shifters, etc.
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  #117  
Old 02-05-2013, 10:53 AM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Saab wasn't making money before GM bought them, and needed help. Saab would never have surived as long as it did without GM buying it. Saab didn't make money for GM either. It was a losing proposition. The reality is that GM prolonged the existence of Saab. Once GM divested from Saab, they were toast. Saab couldn't sustain itself.
This is true...

But...

GM got a lot from Saab r&d while also investing as little as possible. When GM was sinking they moved losses around and put losses onto Saab that did not belong. This allowed GM to survive and put the nails in Saabs coffin.

At the same time there were buyers for Saab, but since GM had integrated platform architecture and some engines, they killed all deals that would share that technology.

So to me and many, GM was a one time savior but also a more recent death contributor.
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  #118  
Old 02-05-2013, 11:16 AM
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This is true...


So to me and many, GM was a one time savior but also a more recent death contributor.
Yes, I agree. It gave it life. It then pulled the plug.
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  #119  
Old 02-05-2013, 11:59 AM
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Kindly, someone (BJ), explain the following, if E46 and E90 were such horrible cars, non luxurious, harsh suspension, performance oriented, whereas majority of buyers want comfort and luxury, how is it that they were able to sell millions of them, and create an image which is largly responsible for F30 sales today? According to your theory BMW should have gone out of business about 10 to 12 years ago, long before they realized that "we really want luxury and comfort and dont care about performance".
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  #120  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:01 PM
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Yes, I agree. It gave it life. It then pulled the plug.
I don't know what Victor Mullen (Spyker Cars) was thinking when he purchased Saab. He is an astute businessman but with the Saab purchase he got in over his head.

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  #121  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:06 PM
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  1. BMW is NOT moving away from the sport sedan market. Period.
  2. The competition is getting better, no doubt. This is a good thing.
  3. BMW is simultaneously moving the 3 series both up and down market. Some of the 335s out there are the most expensive 3's ever (not counting Ms). Plus, the 320 is coming out, and that's going to be a huge seller and broaden the market base.
  4. The 3 is getting more luxurious, comes with more bells and whistles than ever before, and this trend will continue.
  5. The 3 series is still sticking to it's sport sedan roots. e.g., Sport Line, M Sport, Dynamic Handling, Adaptive Suspension, Paddle shifters, etc.
As opposed to some here who speculate and throw out fabricated statistics I have actually spoken to BMW marketing people. They obviously are interested in selling as many cars as possible but they have no intention of abandoning their image as a performance oriented enthusiasts car. That is what built the brand and they are very aware of that fact.

No company is going to spend the money that BMW does to promote motorsports if they feel that they are catering to 2% of their client base.

CA
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  #122  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:12 PM
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Kindly, someone (BJ), explain the following, if E46 and E90 were such horrible cars, non luxurious, harsh suspension, performance oriented, whereas majority of buyers want comfort and luxury, how is it that they were able to sell millions of them, and create an image which is largly responsible for F30 sales today? According to your theory BMW should have gone out of business about 10 to 12 years ago, long before they realized that "we really want luxury and comfort and dont care about performance".
Exactly. The only one who believes what he says is he himself. IMO, spouting his brand on nonsense will turn off potential BMW buyers.
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Last edited by beden1; 02-05-2013 at 12:15 PM.
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  #123  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:32 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
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Location: Michigan
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,258
Mein Auto: '98 M E36/7:'06 Saab 9-5
Quote:
Originally Posted by krash View Post
Yes, I agree. It gave it life. It then pulled the plug.
Well, pulling the plug is one thing, GM smothered Saab with a pillow first lol. I get it, kill off Hummer and Saturn too so the greater good survives. But again, they put debt on Saab that was not Saabs in order to appear more viable to the government to bankroll the restructuring. Thats the pillow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I don't know what Victor Mullen (Spyker Cars) was thinking when he purchased Saab. He is an astute businessman but with the Saab purchase he got in over his head.

CA
A few of us met him at some events. Cool guy, passionate, he surely had some things to gain with the mass production techniques and access to engineering. But I don't think he had the experience or Capitol to get out from under the years of losses.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@11-16lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: 6mt, SOLD

'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt AERO+ TUNED
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  #124  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:47 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Location: NJ
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 993
Mein Auto: BMW 328i SP
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Originally Posted by krash View Post
I don't know about that. I sat in a Mercedes C class. I wouldn't classify that as more luxurious. Actually, I consider a lot of the controls to be of cheaper quality compared to the F30.

Plus, ever since the 3 series was introduced back in the late 70s, there have always been cheaper, more luxurious cars.

I do agree that the competition is getting better though, no doubt.
There has been some complaints in reference to F30 built quality. I am not so sure if it can "hang" with the MB in this department.

"We were all disappointed with the interior build quality of the 335i, the most expensive car here. Said Evans, "Got a lot of creaks and squeaks from the center console and stack. Not impressed." Febbo was meaner: "The dashboard squeaks like a Styrofoam cooler. Really? This is a $50,000 car?" Actually, Febbo, the BMW is a $55,870 car. The other two are just over $49,000 as tested. Moreover, the BMW's cabin desigh left us all a little cold.........
"The best cabin of the three belongs to the Mercedes-Benz"


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2K3WWWZVS
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  #125  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:14 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Michigan
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,258
Mein Auto: '98 M E36/7:'06 Saab 9-5
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
There has been some complaints in reference to F30 built quality. I am not so sure if it can "hang" with the MB in this department.

"We were all disappointed with the interior build quality of the 335i, the most expensive car here. Said Evans, "Got a lot of creaks and squeaks from the center console and stack. Not impressed." Febbo was meaner: "The dashboard squeaks like a Styrofoam cooler. Really? This is a $50,000 car?" Actually, Febbo, the BMW is a $55,870 car. The other two are just over $49,000 as tested. Moreover, the BMW's cabin desigh left us all a little cold.........
"The best cabin of the three belongs to the Mercedes-Benz"


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz2K3WWWZVS
I will say the '12's I have driven were a bit noisier and seemed to have more wind noise while driving. Some of that can be placebo, but they can improve things like seals and assembly techniques in the second year that fall under the radar. Most every magazine test of the f30 has been first year cars. Not making excuses, but it's a fact.
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E36/7: Dinan/RMS stage 2+ blower@11-16lbs of BOOST! 18" BBS LM's, too much more to list
F30: 6mt, SOLD

'06 Saab 9-5 wagon 5mt AERO+ TUNED
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