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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #126  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:16 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
lol at the idiots that keep quoting mags
Sometimes the truth from unbiased sources hurts.
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  #127  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:19 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
Well, pulling the plug is one thing, GM smothered Saab with a pillow first lol. I get it, kill off Hummer and Saturn too so the greater good survives. But again, they put debt on Saab that was not Saabs in order to appear more viable to the government to bankroll the restructuring. Thats the pillow.



A few of us met him at some events. Cool guy, passionate, he surely had some things to gain with the mass production techniques and access to engineering. But I don't think he had the experience or Capitol to get out from under the years of losses.
I have met him as well, nice guy, loves cars. I'm sorry he was not able to save Saab.

CA
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  #128  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:20 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Jamesonsviggen View Post
I will say the '12's I have driven were a bit noisier and seemed to have more wind noise while driving. Some of that can be placebo, but they can improve things like seals and assembly techniques in the second year that fall under the radar. Most every magazine test of the f30 has been first year cars. Not making excuses, but it's a fact.
It is. To my understanding the earlier C sedans we real bad as well. I don't own a C class or the F30 so I posted what I read in the article.
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  #129  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:25 PM
Jamesonsviggen Jamesonsviggen is online now
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
It is. To my understanding the earlier C sedans we real bad as well. I don't own a C class or the F30 so I posted what I read in the article.
It's the nature of any new model. I try and avoid the first year of production. Throughout production its continuous improvement. The C is long in the tooth but it also means they work the bugs out, just as they should have done with '11-12 e90-92's. Would be interesting to fairly compare a new first year e90, what was that '06 vs a '12 F30 in terms of build quality and what not. It will be interesting to see the F30 at the end as well.
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  #130  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:45 PM
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Mark K Mark K is online now
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Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
You are right but the competition is tougher than ever before and what is my incentive then for picking the 3 over the IS, A4 or C class? In the past it was the "sporty" feeling but not anymore. Does it look better than the A4 or the C? Not really. Tech or Luxury? Nope. Price? Nope. Then what?
Completely agree. There are many cars out there. Many. One particular (and VERY large) group of these is a 4-door grocery-getter. Comfortable seating for 4, space for luggage/groceries, space for an emergency haul for things like smaller refrigerators or TV, daily driver that can be taken across US if need be ... that kind of car. 3 series is in that group. So you bought a BMW 3 series. Let's see ...

If you wanted prestige ... there are more prestigious cars around same price point.
If you wanted luxury ... there are more luxurious cars around same price point.
If you wanted sport ... there are sportier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted cubic ft/dollar ... there are roomier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted hp/dollar ... there are more powerful cars around same price point and even a LOT cheaper.

So, why did you buy a BMW? I can only answer for myself ... because NONE of the vehicles in that group drives like a BMW 3 series, regardless of the price. I just happened to like very much how my E92 drives and would strongly appreciate weight loss at the expense of more noise and other such unluxury consequences.

I can also answer for my wife who was initially forced to drive a BMW to work and who would NEVER have considered buying a BMW (nor getting it as a present, just to clarify). She absolutely loves it now. Because it drives that way, not for anything else.

That said, BJ, don't underestimate the evaluation that 50 years old women have about new BMW (presumes they previously owned E46 or E9X). My wife didn't like F10 loaner and outright refused to drive X1 loaner after the first day. We'll see what she says about F30 when we get it as a next loaner, but I'm afraid it will be "no deal".
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  #131  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:13 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Completely agree. There are many cars out there. Many. One particular (and VERY large) group of these is a 4-door grocery-getter. Comfortable seating for 4, space for luggage/groceries, space for an emergency haul for things like smaller refrigerators or TV, daily driver that can be taken across US if need be ... that kind of car. 3 series is in that group. So you bought a BMW 3 series. Let's see ...

If you wanted prestige ... there are more prestigious cars around same price point.
If you wanted luxury ... there are more luxurious cars around same price point.
If you wanted sport ... there are sportier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted cubic ft/dollar ... there are roomier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted hp/dollar ... there are more powerful cars around same price point and even a LOT cheaper.

So, why did you buy a BMW? I can only answer for myself ... because NONE of the vehicles in that group drives like a BMW 3 series, regardless of the price. I just happened to like very much how my E92 drives and would strongly appreciate weight loss at the expense of more noise and other such unluxury consequences.

I can also answer for my wife who was initially forced to drive a BMW to work and who would NEVER have considered buying a BMW (nor getting it as a present, just to clarify). She absolutely loves it now. Because it drives that way, not for anything else.

That said, BJ, don't underestimate the evaluation that 50 years old women have about new BMW (presumes they previously owned E46 or E9X). My wife didn't like F10 loaner and outright refused to drive X1 loaner after the first day. We'll see what she says about F30 when we get it as a next loaner, but I'm afraid it will be "no deal".
At the time I purchased my E90 there was no other vehicle in this segment that offered the steering, braking and handling the E90 does. The Inline six was just the icing on the cake. I don't really care for tech and luxuries. I like heavy steering, staggered set up, lack of body roll and absolutely love the N52 engine. With the E90 LCI you could of had all of that for 36,500 USD.

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-05-2013 at 01:19 PM.
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  #132  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:21 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Completely agree. There are many cars out there. Many. One particular (and VERY large) group of these is a 4-door grocery-getter. Comfortable seating for 4, space for luggage/groceries, space for an emergency haul for things like smaller refrigerators or TV, daily driver that can be taken across US if need be ... that kind of car. 3 series is in that group. So you bought a BMW 3 series. Let's see ...

If you wanted prestige ... there are more prestigious cars around same price point.
If you wanted luxury ... there are more luxurious cars around same price point.
If you wanted sport ... there are sportier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted cubic ft/dollar ... there are roomier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted hp/dollar ... there are more powerful cars around same price point and even a LOT cheaper.

So, why did you buy a BMW? I can only answer for myself ... because NONE of the vehicles in that group drives like a BMW 3 series, regardless of the price. I just happened to like very much how my E92 drives and would strongly appreciate weight loss at the expense of more noise and other such unluxury consequences.

I can also answer for my wife who was initially forced to drive a BMW to work and who would NEVER have considered buying a BMW (nor getting it as a present, just to clarify). She absolutely loves it now. Because it drives that way, not for anything else.

That said, BJ, don't underestimate the evaluation that 50 years old women have about new BMW (presumes they previously owned E46 or E9X). My wife didn't like F10 loaner and outright refused to drive X1 loaner after the first day. We'll see what she says about F30 when we get it as a next loaner, but I'm afraid it will be "no deal".
My wife was very influential in the choice of both of our BMWs (335i E93, 750Lix) because she liked the way they drive. A few years ago she leased a Jaguar XKR for the same reason. She did not think that the Mercedes C250 that we rented for a month in Florida drove as well as either of our BMWs. She is a member of all of the organizations in my signature and we attend all of the events together.

CA
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  #133  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:38 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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  #134  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
At the time I purchased my E90 there was no other vehicle in this segment that offered the steering, braking and handling the E90 does. The Inline six was just the icing on the cake. I don't really care for tech and luxuries. I like heavy steering, staggered set up, lack of body roll and absolutely love the N52 engine. With the E90 LCI you could of had all of that for 36,500 USD.
Please don't forget you can get BRZ for a lot less (yes, it still has technically 4 seats) or a Mustang GT w/Track package for about the same money.

I did a review quite a bit ago swapping my car with coworker who owns Mustang V6 w/Performance pack. Nothing I normally do with my E92 threw off the Mustang. Some things it even did better (like Interstate driving). But it doesn't drive like E92 and I find the difference in price justified for that. But I don't say I could kick it's a** in "sport" department - not going to happen.
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  #135  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
My wife was very influential in the choice of both of our BMWs (335i E93, 750Lix) because she liked the way they drive. A few years ago she leased a Jaguar XKR for the same reason. She did not think that the Mercedes C250 that we rented for a month in Florida drove as well as either of our BMWs. She is a member of all of the organizations in my signature and we attend all of the events together.
CA
Unfortunately, my wife doesn't want to sign for HPDE anymore after the first experience. Which makes BJ's point even weaker. If my wife, who is scared to death when even moderate-to-fast cornering on public road is concerned, can appreciate "how it drives feeling", I'm pretty sure there are a LOT of people out there who can do the same.

They might come for the badge, but they stay for the driving feel. Even if they tend to take corners below speed limit.
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  #136  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:57 PM
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When the 3 Series was truly worthy of wearing the BMW badge. At the time, it had no real competition in it's class. It was simple, well made, and fun.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/67453...irst-3-series/
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  #137  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
When the 3 Series was truly worthy of wearing the BMW badge. At the time, it had no real competition in it's class. It was simple, well made, and fun.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/67453...irst-3-series/
Ah, my femme fatale ... the E21 323i ! That's where it all started for me. Nice memories.
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  #138  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:30 PM
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408Racer 408Racer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
If you wanted prestige ... there are more prestigious cars around same price point.
If you wanted luxury ... there are more luxurious cars around same price point.
If you wanted sport ... there are sportier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted cubic ft/dollar ... there are roomier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted hp/dollar ... there are more powerful cars around same price point and even a LOT cheaper.

So, why did you buy a BMW?
Simple answer, really: ALL of the above.

BMW may not be the best at any one thing but it does all of the things you listed very well. Most other brands may be good at one or two.
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  #139  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:37 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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[QUOTE=Mark K;7361468]Completely agree. There are many cars out there. Many. One particular (and VERY large) group of these is a 4-door grocery-getter. Comfortable seating for 4, space for luggage/groceries, space for an emergency haul for things like smaller refrigerators or TV, daily driver that can be taken across US if need be ... that kind of car. 3 series is in that group. So you bought a BMW 3 series. Let's see ...

If you wanted prestige ... there are more prestigious cars around same price point.
If you wanted luxury ... there are more luxurious cars around same price point.
If you wanted sport ... there are sportier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted cubic ft/dollar ... there are roomier cars around same price point and even cheaper.
If you wanted hp/dollar ... there are more powerful cars around same price point and even a LOT cheaper.

So, why did you buy a BMW? I can only answer for myself ... because NONE of the vehicles in that group drives like a BMW 3 series, regardless of the price. I just happened to like very much how my E92 drives and would strongly appreciate weight loss at the expense of more noise and other such unluxury consequences.

I can also answer for my wife who was initially forced to drive a BMW to work and who would NEVER have considered buying a BMW (nor getting it as a present, just to clarify). She absolutely loves it now. Because it drives that way, not for anything else.

That said, BJ, don't underestimate the evaluation that 50 years old women have about new BMW (presumes they previously owned E46 or E9X). My wife didn't like F10 loaner and outright refused to drive X1 loaner after the first day. We'll see what she says about F30 whe

Quote:
Originally Posted by 408Racer View Post
Simple answer, really: ALL of the above.

BMW may not be the best at any one thing but it does all of the things you listed very well. Most other brands may be good at one or two.
There are also other brands that are good at all of those things although each brand, including BMW, may be better at some than others. You decide which of these characteristics are important to you and choose a car accordingly but for the most part all of the cars that directly compete with the 3 Series are good at all of those things. I did exactly that and chose BMW but that does not imply that I don't respect the competition.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-05-2013 at 02:50 PM.
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  #140  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:39 PM
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kobechrome kobechrome is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
At the time I purchased my E90 there was no other vehicle in this segment that offered the steering, braking and handling the E90 does. The Inline six was just the icing on the cake. I don't really care for tech and luxuries. I like heavy steering, staggered set up, lack of body roll and absolutely love the N52 engine. With the E90 LCI you could of had all of that for 36,500 USD.
I can appreciate this statement. The F30 is softer and more luxurious - probably something you're not looking for. Although a stripper 328 with no amenities is still near your price range. It looks like you are done with BMW and there are better options for you out there now. I have no doubt the F30 WILL alienate some enthusiasts - lets see if BMW made a mistake. I for one stuck with the F30, acknowledging that its less a drivers sports sedan and more a luxury sedan now. IMO, there's still no competition that puts it all together like a BMW even though others might excel at individual attributes. Yes, the competition is stiff now and BMW should respect that.
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Last edited by kobechrome; 02-05-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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  #141  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:43 PM
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3284me 3284me is offline
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Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If you are correct that GM has not offered any incentives for the ATS while selling around 2,700 to 2,900, and will offer incentives soon to start clearing inventory, then how did you conclude the 2,700 units will peak out?
They are building 7200 per month according to the source I read. I personally have not seen the supporting documentation.
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  #142  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:58 PM
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My 2011 does not have any squeaks or rattles. I'm actually amazed since it's a convertible.
+1 38000 miles on my sedan and it has no rattles or squeaks. I have to say I have owed many Japanese cars that were never this tight after almost 2 years. I get that this car cost a lot more and it may not be a speed demon, but its the best car I have ever owned. I actually want to get an f30 for my wife, but she feel in love with the x1. Hmm maybe I will give her mine.
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  #143  
Old 02-05-2013, 03:13 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
My 2011 does not have any squeaks or rattles. I'm actually amazed since it's a convertible.
Same here with my 2007 E93 and I am also amazed at how little road (Conti DWS non-RFTS?) and wind (lack of a B pillar) noise there is.

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 02-05-2013 at 03:15 PM.
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  #144  
Old 02-05-2013, 03:54 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Please don't forget you can get BRZ for a lot less (yes, it still has technically 4 seats) or a Mustang GT w/Track package for about the same money.

I did a review quite a bit ago swapping my car with coworker who owns Mustang V6 w/Performance pack. Nothing I normally do with my E92 threw off the Mustang. Some things it even did better (like Interstate driving). But it doesn't drive like E92 and I find the difference in price justified for that. But I don't say I could kick it's a** in "sport" department - not going to happen.
I was referring to four door vehicles only.

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-05-2013 at 04:03 PM.
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  #145  
Old 02-05-2013, 04:00 PM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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Why companies like BMW participate in motorsports events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Within the massive walls of BMW USA Headquarters there is a small, niche division that is responsible for ///M sales and marketing and they spend their tiny budget on sportsmanlike events such as those.

It does not mean that it moves the needle for the other 98% of 3 Series sales. They get far more benefit from a rerun of "Pretty In Pink" or a new Jay-Z song.

BJ
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Quote:
Study: "Win On Sunday, Sell On Monday" Still Holds True




A study released today has found that there's a strong link between participation in motorsports and sales on dealer lots. Back in the mid-20th century, the association between winning races on Sunday and selling cars on Monday was an accepted fact. But over the past few decades, that link has been called into question--some suggesting it doesn't even exist in today's import-heavy marketplace.
The reasoning behind the lost link was that motorsports had become less relevant to today's average road car, and buyers were looking for more than raw performance in a new vehicle purchase. But it turns out that while those facts may remain true, the benefit comes more from the people who attend the races than from the cars that participate in them.

"New vehicle buyers who are influenced by motorsports typically love cars and trucks and they are opinion leaders for other car buyers – they give an average of 25 or more vehicle recommendations per year to others," said Steve Bruyn, president of Foresight Research, the agency that conducted the study. "More importantly people follow their advice – and we have measured it. So, there is a downstream impact from the races in the form of on-going word of mouth recommendations. That's why we say that the roar from a race car continues away from the track."

The races themselves hold value for these opinion leaders, with Foresight's research showing 63 percent of these influencers actual plan to visit vehicle displays setup during race weekends when they are in the market to buy a new car. After the event, 44 percent of them will spread their recommendations to other people looking to buy. The buyers most influenced by motorsports are those that buy large cars, sports cars, and pickups.
Even beyond this key influencer group, racing has an affect on the general car shopper: in 2009, 25 perecnt of all new vehicle buyers watched at least one motorsports even on TV in the year prior to their purchase, and 10 percent actually attended a race.

So what does all of this market research gobbledy**** mean? It means that those of us that actively support motorsports are influential in the buying processes of many other people, and that motorsports in general have a positive impact on car sales--enough to justify their expense in most cases. And that means motorsports could have a bright future even into the heavily-regulated (environmental and otherwise) future.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:02 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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I can appreciate this statement. The F30 is softer and more luxurious - probably something you're not looking for. Although a stripper 328 with no amenities is still near your price range. It looks like you are done with BMW and there are better options for you out there now. I have no doubt the F30 WILL alienate some enthusiasts - lets see if BMW made a mistake. I for one stuck with the F30, acknowledging that its less a drivers sports sedan and more a luxury sedan now. IMO, there's still no competition that puts it all together like a BMW even though others might excel at individual attributes. Yes, the competition is stiff now and BMW should respect that.
Its not about the final price per se but more about value. I really want to stay with BMW but the competition is making it very hard for me. We shall see what the 2 series brings or perhaps the F30 LCI.

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-05-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:10 PM
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Mark K Mark K is online now
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I was referring to four door vehicles only.
I understand that. You could argue with NUMBERS that show many 4-door sedans with more hp and torque than your E90 (yes, including Honda, Nissan et al), but you would have to define "sport" first. To ME that is not hp or torque numbers, nor is it 0-60 or 1/4 mile times.

That's why I mentioned BRZ and Mustang.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:23 PM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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I understand that. You could argue with NUMBERS that show many 4-door sedans with more hp and torque than your E90 (yes, including Honda, Nissan et al), but you would have to define "sport" first. To ME that is not hp or torque numbers, nor is it 0-60 or 1/4 mile times.

That's why I mentioned BRZ and Mustang.
To me it is about handling, steering and braking. Overall chassis feel and the I6. At the time there was no car that came even close.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:27 PM
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To me it is about handling, steering and braking. Overall chassis feel and the I6. At the time there was no car that came even close.
Interesting that while Lexus is trying to become more like BMW, BMW is becoming more like Lexus. Is that necessarily a bad thing for either company? Time will tell, but with the technology available today it is possible to design a car with the best attributes of both brands. I would be very happy with a Sport Coupe that incorporated the best qualities of my Lexus SC300 and my BMW 335i. That would be a great car and would probably sell very well regardless of which company, or even if both companies, made cars like that.

CA
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Old 02-05-2013, 07:48 PM
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We get it, you have been telling us BMW 3 drivers are getting old. Maybe your insisting that ATS drivers are older is just a way to ease your own angst about 3 drivers getting old.

Take it easy, 50 is the new 30, and 70 is the new 40.
These are two separate arguments. Ridiculous how you try to drag the ATS into every discussion.

Argument 1: The F30 is bigger and softer because it's customers want it that way.

Argument 2: The ATS isn't selling because it's too sporty for a Cadillac owner, too 'Cadillac' for everyone else.

BJ
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