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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

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  #151  
Old 02-05-2013, 07:55 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LegendsNeverDie View Post
But there are cars that offer more luxury and technology for the same price or less. Lexus and MB for example. You don't get it. This isn't the 90's anymore where the 3 ruled the segment. The C class sales posted above prove this point. Lexus is on a rebound and will be a major player very shortly. The new A4 and Q50 (G) will be here shortly as well. The ATS is doing extremely well considering your point that nobody wants a sporty sedan anymore. This is a very tight segment and a brand loyalty will only get you so far once people start to realize that there are better cars out there for less.
Of course. So let's look at what BMW is doing to counter that:

1. The $45,000 F30.
2. The $29,900 320i.
3. The 1 Series.
4. The X1.
5. The Rumored 2 Series Sedan.

There's a lot of meat on that bone. No other maker in the segment, not even Mercedes or Audi, can offer that range of cars within that $30,000 to $50,000 sweet spot. That's 5 cars and perhaps 20 configurations right there, all of which I myself could be driving if the need was there. So anyone saying "Ooh, BMW screwed up, the 3 Series isn't selling as well as it once was" isn't seeing the big picture. Fortunately, BMW is.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-05-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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  #152  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:11 PM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Kindly, someone (BJ), explain the following, if E46 and E90 were such horrible cars, non luxurious, harsh suspension, performance oriented, whereas majority of buyers want comfort and luxury, how is it that they were able to sell millions of them, and create an image which is largly responsible for F30 sales today? According to your theory BMW should have gone out of business about 10 to 12 years ago, long before they realized that "we really want luxury and comfort and dont care about performance".
Good question. The answer:

The 3 Series benefited from three things back from roughly 1980-1990:

1. Baby-boomers who were 16 to 36 years old during that span.
2. Being the only sporty-tight luxury sedan an enthusiast would want during that span.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity during that span.

Flash forward to the E46/E90 time frame from roughly 1998-2008:

1. Baby-boomers are now 34 to 54 years old during that span.
2. Japanese and German competition in the enthusiast sport sedan category.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity, but clearly about to wake up.

And arrive now in the F30 time frame from roughly 2013-2023:

1. Baby-boomers are currently 48 to 68, will be 56 to 76 by the time the F30 is done.
2. Tons of competition in the segment, BMW hitting sub-$30K pricepoint, diversifying.
3. Mercedes Benz killing it with the C Class, the new CLA going to be huge.

The baby-boomers are the lifesblood of the 3 Series, always have been. Simply put, what got us excited in 1985 became too small for our growing families by 2001 and then became too harsh for our aging joints in 2009. As the baby-boomers age, they need slightly bigger cars with far more comfortable suspensions and tons of luxury goodies for realistic money on fixed-incomes.

The 1 Series and the 2 Series will become to the future generations what we used to think of the E36. BMW will split the 3 Series into an "older" persons car and a "younger" persons car, something they didn't need to do back in 1990 because the baby-boomers weren't ready for it. It's something all car makers will have to do as they age and pass on.

BJ
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Last edited by boltjaM3s; 02-05-2013 at 08:15 PM.
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  #153  
Old 02-05-2013, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Good question. The answer:

As the baby-boomers age, they need slightly bigger cars with far more comfortable suspensions and tons of luxury goodies for realistic money on fixed-incomes.

BJ
I don't agree. I see more 70-85 year olds buying smaller cars than larger cars. A smaller car is easier for them to maneuver in tight spaces. That why you see so many Toyota Camrys on the road primarily driven by that generation.
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  #154  
Old 02-05-2013, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
And arrive now in the F30 time frame from roughly 2013-2023:

1. Baby-boomers are currently 48 to 68, will be 56 to 76 by the time the F30 is done.
2. Tons of competition in the segment, BMW hitting sub-$30K pricepoint, diversifying.
3. Mercedes Benz killing it with the C Class, the new CLA going to be huge.
BJ
I'm not sure what kind of incentives MB is offering in the USA, but in Canada, MB is offering 1.9% financing or lease compared to BMW's 3.9%. That's 2% makes a huge difference in payments for the buyer looking to lease or finance the purchase (about 80% of the market).

By the way, MB's much higher cost for incentives has driven down its corporate profitability and its share price, compared to BMW Ag which enjoys a higher profit level and a well performing stock (35%+ since last July). No question that sales for the aging C Class are being "bought" through costly incentives. It remains to be seen if BMW might adjust their lease/finance rates to increase their volume.
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  #155  
Old 02-06-2013, 01:14 AM
SD330i SD330i is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Good question. The answer:

The 3 Series benefited from three things back from roughly 1980-1990:

1. Baby-boomers who were 16 to 36 years old during that span.
2. Being the only sporty-tight luxury sedan an enthusiast would want during that span.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity during that span.

Flash forward to the E46/E90 time frame from roughly 1998-2008:

1. Baby-boomers are now 34 to 54 years old during that span.
2. Japanese and German competition in the enthusiast sport sedan category.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity, but clearly about to wake up.

And arrive now in the F30 time frame from roughly 2013-2023:

1. Baby-boomers are currently 48 to 68, will be 56 to 76 by the time the F30 is done.
2. Tons of competition in the segment, BMW hitting sub-$30K pricepoint, diversifying.
3. Mercedes Benz killing it with the C Class, the new CLA going to be huge.

The baby-boomers are the lifesblood of the 3 Series, always have been. Simply put, what got us excited in 1985 became too small for our growing families by 2001 and then became too harsh for our aging joints in 2009. As the baby-boomers age, they need slightly bigger cars with far more comfortable suspensions and tons of luxury goodies for realistic money on fixed-incomes.

The 1 Series and the 2 Series will become to the future generations what we used to think of the E36. BMW will split the 3 Series into an "older" persons car and a "younger" persons car, something they didn't need to do back in 1990 because the baby-boomers weren't ready for it. It's something all car makers will have to do as they age and pass on.

BJ
My wife & I are Baby Boomers Our first BMW was in 2006 when we were 53 . A new 2006 jet black 330i. Our previous car was a 2003 Acura TLs. 2009 , a. 335i & now a 2013 335i. We will continue to drive new Bimmers for the rest of our driving experiences. Back in 1979 , we considered a new 320i as many in my real estate office at the time drove many BMW models. We ended up with a 1979 Accord. The 320i was just a bit out of our budget.. Now 34 years later, we can enjoy & afford the 3 series. We love our F30 & would not trade for either of our previous Bimmers
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  #156  
Old 02-06-2013, 02:21 AM
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I don't agree. I see more 70-85 year olds buying smaller cars than larger cars. A smaller car is easier for them to maneuver in tight spaces. That why you see so many Toyota Camrys on the road primarily driven by that generation.
The Camry is 7 inches longer than an F30.
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  #157  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:29 AM
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The Mercedes C250 starts at $35,300 and the 320i starts at $32,500. Personally, I'll let everyone else keep all the luxury and tech options. If budget is an issue, the 328i with it's rear wheel drive and 240hp engine for $37k is plenty loaded. Also, after driving my new M sport, there is no way this engine isn't putting out closer 270hp. From 20 to 100mph it feels like 300hp in a non turbo car. Test drive one and you'll agree.




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Originally Posted by thegandalf View Post
This is why BMW brought the 320i. It might not make too much sense to me, but it can square off with the C250....
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  #158  
Old 02-06-2013, 04:54 AM
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Exclamation

Personally in the UK merc sales are for "Old Men" and thats how they drive.
I have tested most of them and they do not stack up.
Interiors look cheap and annual servicing costs very high, and even if the car has only covered very low mileage they still insist on full servicing here.
Not for me thanks.
PS) gearboxes are crap.

Last edited by johnbmw6; 02-06-2013 at 04:55 AM.
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  #159  
Old 02-06-2013, 05:53 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by woodswatchco View Post
The Mercedes C250 starts at $35,300 and the 320i starts at $32,500. Personally, I'll let everyone else keep all the luxury and tech options. If budget is an issue, the 328i with it's rear wheel drive and 240hp engine for $37k is plenty loaded. Also, after driving my new M sport, there is no way this engine isn't putting out closer 270hp. From 20 to 100mph it feels like 300hp in a non turbo car. Test drive one and you'll agree.
The N20 engine does put out around 260-270 hp at the crank. It "feels" fast because it has a lot more torque than small NA engines. Ever heard the saying that you pay for the horsepower but drive the torque? That is what you are experiencing. On the other hand, torque does not = faster acceleration. If you look at the E90 330 and F30 328 for example. They both roughly have the same power at the crank (N20 will probably have around 5-10 more) but the 330 puts out much less torque. The straight line acceleration numbers between the 2 are nearly identical. Both engines have a very nice torque curve as well.

Last edited by LegendsNeverDie; 02-06-2013 at 05:57 AM.
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  #160  
Old 02-06-2013, 05:56 AM
LegendsNeverDie LegendsNeverDie is offline
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Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Of course. So let's look at what BMW is doing to counter that:

1. The $45,000 F30.
2. The $29,900 320i.
3. The 1 Series.
4. The X1.
5. The Rumored 2 Series Sedan.

There's a lot of meat on that bone. No other maker in the segment, not even Mercedes or Audi, can offer that range of cars within that $30,000 to $50,000 sweet spot. That's 5 cars and perhaps 20 configurations right there, all of which I myself could be driving if the need was there. So anyone saying "Ooh, BMW screwed up, the 3 Series isn't selling as well as it once was" isn't seeing the big picture. Fortunately, BMW is.

BJ
You raise a good point, however a lot of older folks still want a sporty sedan. I am excited for the 2 series as well. Hopefully it will be more "sport" oriented and large enough for me to consider it.
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  #161  
Old 02-06-2013, 06:16 AM
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boltjaM3s boltjaM3s is offline
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You raise a good point, however a lot of older folks still want a sporty sedan. I am excited for the 2 series as well. Hopefully it will be more "sport" oriented and large enough for me to consider it.
Myself as well.

I adore the look of the new 4 Series but I have teen and small kids and simply can't handle a two door car. If BMW ever builds the equivalent of a 3 Series Gran-Coupe with an adjustable suspension I'll be all over it, will be my next car when the F30 lease is up. But still, the vast majority of buyers in this segment aren't in it for the performance. It's just the way it is.

We should be grateful that BMW offers so many different body styles and option packages to take care of all of us. You are a hard-core enthusiast, my mom is just in it for the badge, I'm somewhere in the middle. What BMW offers $29,000 to $49,000 will ultimately take care of all of us.

BJ
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  #162  
Old 02-06-2013, 07:12 AM
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A few things:

1. BJ there is no $29,900 3-series. A stripper 320i will msrp at 33,445
2. The ATS is a huge success by any measure. I expect its market share to increase. That may or may not be at BMW's expense
3. The Average age of a BMW owner is 50. MB 50. Lexus 50. Audi 49. all are rising in recent years. Caddy 57 (but dropping even before the ATS).
4. Audi has much more brand styling penache among the youth both in Europe and the US. Rich kids on college campuses all drive S5's not 3ers. Audi is becoming what BMW was in the 80s. The aspirational brand of choice.
5. The competition in this segment continues to get insane. MB is beginning to drink BMW's milkshake.
6. My next car may or may not be a BMW. If it is it will not be because it's a BMW. That seems to be the difference between BJ and most everyone else here.
7. For f**ks sake can we all please stop calling 4-door cars coupes?
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  #163  
Old 02-06-2013, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boltjaM3s View Post
Good question. The answer:

The 3 Series benefited from three things back from roughly 1980-1990:

1. Baby-boomers who were 16 to 36 years old during that span.
2. Being the only sporty-tight luxury sedan an enthusiast would want during that span.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity during that span.

Flash forward to the E46/E90 time frame from roughly 1998-2008:

1. Baby-boomers are now 34 to 54 years old during that span.
2. Japanese and German competition in the enthusiast sport sedan category.
3. Mercedes Benz ignoring the C Class opportunity, but clearly about to wake up.

And arrive now in the F30 time frame from roughly 2013-2023:

1. Baby-boomers are currently 48 to 68, will be 56 to 76 by the time the F30 is done.
2. Tons of competition in the segment, BMW hitting sub-$30K pricepoint, diversifying.
3. Mercedes Benz killing it with the C Class, the new CLA going to be huge.

The baby-boomers are the lifesblood of the 3 Series, always have been. Simply put, what got us excited in 1985 became too small for our growing families by 2001 and then became too harsh for our aging joints in 2009. As the baby-boomers age, they need slightly bigger cars with far more comfortable suspensions and tons of luxury goodies for realistic money on fixed-incomes.

The 1 Series and the 2 Series will become to the future generations what we used to think of the E36. BMW will split the 3 Series into an "older" persons car and a "younger" persons car, something they didn't need to do back in 1990 because the baby-boomers weren't ready for it. It's something all car makers will have to do as they age and pass on.

BJ
well, you seem to have it all planned out, so once baby boomers are gone, (i wish they live to 120, but eventually we all die,) that will be the end of 3 series and BMW will stop production. Correct?
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  #164  
Old 02-06-2013, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by 3ismagic# View Post
4. Audi has much more brand styling penache among the youth both in Europe and the US. Rich kids on college campuses all drive S5's not 3ers. Audi is becoming what BMW was in the 80s. The aspirational brand of choice.
Excellent point.

In my area, private school high school kids, both male and female, want and receive Audis for their 16th birthday. It is definitely the aspirational, desired young people's car.
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  #165  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:00 AM
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408Racer 408Racer is offline
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well, you seem to have it all planned out, so once baby boomers are gone, (i wish they live to 120, but eventually we all die,) that will be the end of 3 series and BMW will stop production. Correct?


Although the reverse happened in my case (E39 to F30), I always thought that BMW's grand plan was for people to eventually "graduate" from the 3 to the 5 as they got greyer and wealthier.
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  #166  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:02 AM
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audis popularity is more a result of their full on assault of mainstream media, paying all the cool celebrities to drive audis, and lack of taste in the younger generation.
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  #167  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:18 AM
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captainaudio captainaudio is offline
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audis popularity is more a result of their full on assault of mainstream media, paying all the cool celebrities to drive audis, and lack of taste in the younger generation.
Thats what the older generation said about the boomers when they started buying BMWs.

CA
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  #168  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:41 AM
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^ But this is different!

(Somehow . . .)
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  #169  
Old 02-06-2013, 10:56 AM
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^ But this is different!

(Somehow . . .)
That absolutely correct!

When our parents criticized our taste in cars, clothes and music they were uninformed and old fashioned.

Today's young people actually do have lousy taste.

CA
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  #170  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:01 AM
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  #171  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:09 AM
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  #172  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:41 AM
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JWOWW

Vinny

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The Situation


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  #173  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:47 AM
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Audi Popular
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  #174  
Old 02-06-2013, 11:57 AM
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This thread has gone to ****.
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  #175  
Old 02-06-2013, 12:01 PM
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As we continue to research, I am afraid we would conclude ATS drivers are the more normal people with better taste.
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