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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 02-04-2013, 04:52 PM
vistech vistech is offline
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Navigation 2013 Update - Don't go there

I purchased the 2013 update in November 2012 when it first came out. Foolish me. (2011 335xi) Don't make the same mistake and install it even if you receive it as a gift. Once it's installed, there's no turning back. I'm thinking that BMW must have switched vendors, because the original navigation that came with the car was great. (This update is made for BMW by Tom Tom.) It's full of serious mapping errors, the navigation is buggy (with the voice instructions often contradicting the arrows on the screen so you have no idea which way to turn,) and nobody at BMW NA or Tom Tom is interested.

So I now join the ranks of posters who love the car, but face the curious reality of BMW's customer service division routinely alienating its customers while its marketing division routinely spends millions on pre-sale loyalty discounts.
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vistech View Post
I purchased the 2013 update in November 2012 when it first came out. Foolish me. (2011 335xi) Don't make the same mistake and install it even if you receive it as a gift. Once it's installed, there's no turning back. I'm thinking that BMW must have switched vendors, because the original navigation that came with the car was great. (This update is made for BMW by Tom Tom.) It's full of serious mapping errors, the navigation is buggy (with the voice instructions often contradicting the arrows on the screen so you have no idea which way to turn,) and nobody at BMW NA or Tom Tom is interested.

So I now join the ranks of posters who love the car, but face the curious reality of BMW's customer service division routinely alienating its customers while its marketing division routinely spends millions on pre-sale loyalty discounts.
BMW may have fixed this issue with the update revision that came out December'ish. If your nav lists your map as Road Map North America Premium 2013 rather than Road Map North America Premium 2013-1A, you might check to see if you can get the 2013-1A revision (SIB 65-22-12 NAV MAP UPDATE). My car has a production date of 11/2012, and I bought it in Feb13, but the dealership updated the maps (presumably under the SIB) in December to the 2013-1A. If the dealership won't update to 2013-1A (presuming you only have the 2013), you could download the file, which is located on the e90 forum which updates to the 2013-1A.

BMW isn't unique to the front end marketing and back end service issues. The back end servicing is where the dealerships, etc make their money, irrespective of it being BMW or any other manufacturer.

Last edited by imtjm; 02-04-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:28 PM
vistech vistech is offline
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Thank you for the suggestion. I just checked my version and it's Road Map North America Premium 2013-1A. Too bad...
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:38 AM
vistech vistech is offline
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Tischer to the rescue

Jason at Tischer, getBMWparts.com, (where I purchased the update) offered a complete refund within 24 hours of receiving an email explaining the problem. They are amazing! I'm working with my local dealership now to see if there's a way to roll back to the original Navtech version that came with the car.

I can't even imagine what BMW loyalty would be like if BMW NA was as supportive of its clientele.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:58 AM
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I have 2012 maps and sometimes it will tell me to turn one way with the arrow pointing another. Did they radically change the maps from 2012 to 2013?
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2013, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vistech View Post
Jason at Tischer, getBMWparts.com, (where I purchased the update) offered a complete refund within 24 hours of receiving an email explaining the problem. They are amazing! I'm working with my local dealership now to see if there's a way to roll back to the original Navtech version that came with the car.

I can't even imagine what BMW loyalty would be like if BMW NA was as supportive of its clientele.
Just to be clear, the "update" has nothing to do with the software - just the underlying data. And, with the LCI forward (which would cover your car), all data has been provided by TeleAtlas, not Navteq. So, your car should never have had a Navteq database.

TeleAtlas is a wholly owned subsidiary of TomTom, btw.

The navigation system in your car uses a version of the QNX operating system (which, btw, is the OS in the latest version of Blackberry) and it is manufactured by Becker. Neither Navteq nor TeleAtlas has anything to do with bugs in your software, and a data update should have no role in any of those problems (although a data update could certainly supply bad or faulty map information).

FWIW, I have GPS systems like my Garmin that use Navteq data, and GPS systems that use TeleAtlas. Its been hit or miss for me, with neither being particularly accurate.

I have complained to BMW NA about some issues I had with my navigation, and found them very responsive. Once they provided a free data update to me after I sent them a photo of my navigation system producing a bizarre mapping error.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:17 PM
vistech vistech is offline
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Thank you for the correction(s) Kilgore Trout. I read somewhere that the data was Navteq, but have no problem accepting your word. Unfortunately I didn't have the same experience as you when I called BMW NA so that is what it is. I also understand that GPS systems are not perfect. I just didn't expect purchasing the update to make things far worse. The one thing I can say with complete certainty is that navigation problems (based on the underlying data) started after I installed the update, and I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in this update proceed with caution or avoid it altogether.

Last edited by vistech; 02-05-2013 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:17 PM
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I used to work at NAVTEQ when I was in college. Their maps are far superior to TeleAtlas' (Tom Tom) both in my opinion and in other 3rd party opinions. The shame is that BMW is opting for the cheaper maps at the cost of owners....
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vistech View Post
BMW maps changed from Navtech to TomTom. I'm not certain when the change took place, but I believe it was sometime in 2012. Also just to avoid confusion I need to add that BMW describes this update specifically as " BMW 3 Series 2010 - 2013 BMW - North American Premium - USB 2013 Version"
It was not sometime in 2012. BMW changed the provider of the map data when the moved from the CCC-based iDrive system to the CIC iDrive system. That happened in 2009. So, your car has always had TeleAtlas data. If your car is a 2011 (which I am getting from the header on your post), you have a CIC-based system and that has always used TeleAtlas map data.
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcgrew1788 View Post
I used to work at NAVTEQ when I was in college. Their maps are far superior to TeleAtlas' (Tom Tom) both in my opinion and in other 3rd party opinions. The shame is that BMW is opting for the cheaper maps at the cost of owners....
I'd like you to show me one objective third party test demonstrating the superiority of Navteq map data to TeleAtals.

I'd also like you to show me any evidence that Navteq data is more expensive for BMW.

You are making a lot of assumptions that, as far as I can see, are based entirely on hearsay (no offense).

And, btw, the accuracy of data is very hard to assess unless you are talking about specific areas. Out here in LA, I've not seen a shred of evidence that one database is superior to the other.
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  #11  
Old 02-05-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vistech View Post
Thank you for the correction(s) Kilgore Trout. I read somewhere that the data was Navteq, but have no problem accepting your word. Unfortunately I didn't have the same experience as you when I called BMW NA so that is what it is. I also understand that GPS systems are not perfect. I just didn't expect purchasing the update to make things far worse. The one thing I can say with complete certainty is that navigation problems (based on the underlying data) started after I installed the update, and I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in this update proceed with caution or avoid it altogether.
I'm sorry to read this. You paid a lot for your vehicle and, IMO, are entitled to a high level of support.

FWIW, you are doing a huge service to everybody here by posting this and heading off problems for others.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
I'd like you to show me one objective third party test demonstrating the superiority of Navteq map data to TeleAtals.

I'd also like you to show me any evidence that Navteq data is more expensive for BMW.

You are making a lot of assumptions that, as far as I can see, are based entirely on hearsay (no offense).

And, btw, the accuracy of data is very hard to assess unless you are talking about specific areas. Out here in LA, I've not seen a shred of evidence that one database is superior to the other.

Woahhhh... not trying to start a flame war here but it's not hearsay...I worked in the industry, used this as a case study in graduate school, and went to conferences - it's experience. Second, they're not just random assumptions. Companies such as Magellan have opted for TeleAtlas maps because TeleAtlas is offering them cheaper in general. You can look it up. This is not to say it's more expensive for BMW or any other auto/GPS/etc manufacturer it's a general point that TeleAtlas is pricing their product more competitively to gain business.

If you want to see a post from GPS magazine regarding accuracy and other points, here you go:
http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2006/07/n...p#.URF79KXIt4M

While that article is outdated from a technology standpoint, it is still a general point and one that exists in the industry. Could TeleAtlas be better now than when I was with NAVTEQ in 2009? Certainly. Is it correct that different regions have different accuracy? Of course! Here in the Northeast, where I worked and where the above article takes it's example from, Navteq is generally better.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcgrew1788 View Post
Woahhhh... not trying to start a flame war here but it's not hearsay...I worked in the industry, used this as a case study in graduate school, and went to conferences - it's experience. Second, they're not just random assumptions. Companies such as Magellan have opted for TeleAtlas maps because TeleAtlas is offering them cheaper in general. You can look it up. This is not to say it's more expensive for BMW or any other auto/GPS/etc manufacturer it's a general point that TeleAtlas is pricing their product more competitively to gain business.

If you want to see a post from GPS magazine regarding accuracy and other points, here you go:
http://www.gpsmagazine.com/2006/07/n...p#.URF79KXIt4M

While that article is outdated from a technology standpoint, it is still a general point and one that exists in the industry. Could TeleAtlas be better now than when I was with NAVTEQ in 2009? Certainly. Is it correct that different regions have different accuracy? Of course! Here in the Northeast, where I worked and where the above article takes it's example from, Navteq is generally better.
Sorry if I came across kind of harsh there! Appreciate the info though.

I would point out that the "evidence" you cite is a blog post in 2006, where one reviewer does his own informal testing. That's not much of a basis for conclusion.

And, as I said before, we still have no information on costs to BMW. So, concluding that BMW switched sources because it is cheaper is a leap (at best).

But, I still think it is obvious that your post was an informed opinion based on solid expertise.
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2013, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
Sorry if I came across kind of harsh there! Appreciate the info though.
No worries! I'm a data/fact junkie and understand where you're coming from. And, admittedly I'm slightly biased towards one map maker over another but at least it's grounded in facts.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout View Post
Sorry if I came across kind of harsh there! Appreciate the info though.

I would point out that the "evidence" you cite is a blog post, where one reviewer does his own informal testing. That's not much of a basis for conclusion.

And, as I said before, we still have no information on costs to BMW. So, concluding that BMW switched sources because it is cheaper is a leap (at best).
I have better sources on my grad school laptop (stored away somewhere), that's just one that took a 1.4934 second Google search. Also, not making any conclusions but only speculating at why they may have switched since that is how TeleAtlas has been taking business from NAVTEQ over the past few years. Additionally, the system costs to completely change the source of a manufacturer's maps (programming, etc...) certainly isn't $0.

Last edited by Last Sight; 02-05-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmcgrew1788 View Post
I have better sources on my grad school laptop (stored away somewhere), that's just one that took a 1.4934 second Google search. Also, not making any conclusions but only speculating at why they may have switched since that is how TeleAtlas has been taking business from NAVTEQ over the past few years. Additionally, the system costs to completely change the source of a manufacturer's maps (programming, etc...) certainly isn't $0.
I always thought it had more to do with TeleAtlas being European based, since BMW seems to have standardized on a lot of Euro sources for the in-car infotainment stuff.

But, that is about as speculative as it gets!
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:36 PM
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Just to throw a little info in the thread, BMW dropped the Navteq contract a few years ago but has decided to partner with them again for the next gen navigation systems. As it currently stands, Navteq does provide certain regional maps for BMW, however the NA vehicle models are now using Teleatlas.

I had a discussion with Navteq (I work in the GPS industry) last year when I was purchasing my 335, and their NA Sales VP mentioned, "I'll update the maps when ever you need". I took it to mean that they were the current provider, however after looking at the data (and buying the car [side bar: Best decision ever]) I realized this wasn't the case. When I spoke to him at CES, he mentioned that he'd spoken a bit hastily earlier and that while Nokia had entered into a new contract with BMW, I wouldn't see it on my model.

This ticked me off, honestly. After having dealt directly and at a high level with Garmin, TomTom, Magellan (pre-MiTAC), Nokia (pre-Navteq), and most of the major global PND manufacturers, I can unequivocally state with a high level of professional confidence that Navteq data is far superior in the North American market in terms of POI freshness and routing. There are several situations in the US in which the TeleAtlas routing algorithms are simply not ideal, but also situations in EU where I'd rather have TeleAtlas.

Additionally, the richness of the data that Navteq is and has been collecting in the US market is simply astounding. OEMs can elect to purchase only the data they wish to use, which has resulted in some rather meager experiences for the end-user. The real magic happens when someone decides to take advantage of almost all of it, though. As an example, I took the engineering model of a not-yet-released Garmin product out for a spin for a few days and was astounded. "Turn right after the big yellow building in two blocks" or "turn right at the gas station" is pretty rich data and routing, and the historical traffic information works phenomenally well. It warned me off a tempting shortcut ahead of time, verbally letting me know that there was going to be traffic at this time of day. I can only hope that BMW will one day choose to incorporate this data -- because it's there, they (and by extension, we) just need to buy it.

Anyway, I'll get off of my soap box. I would prefer the current BMW models used Navteq, but I guess we can't have it all. It's more fun to drive than fiddle with, anyway

G
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:37 AM
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I can tell you this in my own, practical experience, for sure: the NavTeq map data in my 5 years-old VW RNS510 unit in a CC is significantly much more accurate and descriptive than the TeleAtlas map data in any of my 2 CIC units (2009 and 2012) M3. Especifically, the routing and turning/exit spoken details are way more extensive than in my M3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoBau View Post
Just to throw a little info in the thread, BMW dropped the Navteq contract a few years ago but has decided to partner with them again for the next gen navigation systems. As it currently stands, Navteq does provide certain regional maps for BMW, however the NA vehicle models are now using Teleatlas.

I had a discussion with Navteq (I work in the GPS industry) last year when I was purchasing my 335, and their NA Sales VP mentioned, "I'll update the maps when ever you need". I took it to mean that they were the current provider, however after looking at the data (and buying the car [side bar: Best decision ever]) I realized this wasn't the case. When I spoke to him at CES, he mentioned that he'd spoken a bit hastily earlier and that while Nokia had entered into a new contract with BMW, I wouldn't see it on my model.

This ticked me off, honestly. After having dealt directly and at a high level with Garmin, TomTom, Magellan (pre-MiTAC), Nokia (pre-Navteq), and most of the major global PND manufacturers, I can unequivocally state with a high level of professional confidence that Navteq data is far superior in the North American market in terms of POI freshness and routing. There are several situations in the US in which the TeleAtlas routing algorithms are simply not ideal, but also situations in EU where I'd rather have TeleAtlas.

Additionally, the richness of the data that Navteq is and has been collecting in the US market is simply astounding. OEMs can elect to purchase only the data they wish to use, which has resulted in some rather meager experiences for the end-user. The real magic happens when someone decides to take advantage of almost all of it, though. As an example, I took the engineering model of a not-yet-released Garmin product out for a spin for a few days and was astounded. "Turn right after the big yellow building in two blocks" or "turn right at the gas station" is pretty rich data and routing, and the historical traffic information works phenomenally well. It warned me off a tempting shortcut ahead of time, verbally letting me know that there was going to be traffic at this time of day. I can only hope that BMW will one day choose to incorporate this data -- because it's there, they (and by extension, we) just need to buy it.

Anyway, I'll get off of my soap box. I would prefer the current BMW models used Navteq, but I guess we can't have it all. It's more fun to drive than fiddle with, anyway

G
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by GeoBau View Post
...I can unequivocally state with a high level of professional confidence that Navteq data is far superior in the North American market in terms of POI freshness and routing. There are several situations in the US in which the TeleAtlas routing algorithms are simply not ideal, but also situations in EU where I'd rather have TeleAtlas.
Agreed that the data is superior in terms of POI and routing. I used to work in the real-time traffic division (Traffic.com) of NAVTEQ.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by vistech View Post
Jason at Tischer, getBMWparts.com, (where I purchased the update) offered a complete refund within 24 hours of receiving an email explaining the problem. They are amazing! I'm working with my local dealership now to see if there's a way to roll back to the original Navtech version that came with the car.

I can't even imagine what BMW loyalty would be like if BMW NA was as supportive of its clientele.

Running phone apps was a splendid idea....seems to have died. Too bad and too sad as that adds massive option to the built in screen.

Yet, what's so hard about installing a previous version? It's just software on disk.

This is the Dinan philosophy, where original programming is lost. Seems t'me it's easy enough to do a Cobb with a thumb drive. Or, better, do a JB4 with thumb drive that's left plugged in - original programming's still there as a default.

Am I nuts?
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:53 AM
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Kamdog Kamdog is offline
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POIs change, but, this reminds me of how some people give directions.

A guy I knew (since passed) used to give directions in reference to restaurants. Turn right after Gino's Pizza, go two blocks and make a left at the Chinese restaurant, etc.

My mother used to tell people to make a right where Falcaro's Bowling alley is. Then, when Falcaro's burned down, she would tell people to make a right where Falcaro's used to be.
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